Abortion 2013.

[hibernicus]

Readers of Fr Tony Flannery's Twitter account can see his unbridled enthusiasm for the protection of unborn life HERE
twitter.com/FlanneryTony
Some samples (Note when I include responses from other users I do not necessarily endorse the views expressed):
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Tony Flannery
‏@flannerytony
Well done, Padraig Standuin. Great to hear an alternative point of view from a Church source.
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4:27 AM - 15 Jun 13
Maria Laoise ‏@marialaoise 15 Jun
@flannerytony There are big ethical flaws in this bill. There's smt wrong if you can't see that.
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Maria Laoise ‏@marialaoise 15 Jun
@flannerytony @redslimerick Do Redemptorists in Ireland not support the official Catholic position on abortion?
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Gerry O'Connor ‏@gerryo_Connor 15 Jun
@marialaoise @flannerytony @redslimerick Do you mean the 1983 referenda ? do you mean E. Martin or D. Martin position ? Or the bishop stat?
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Maria Laoise ‏@marialaoise 15 Jun
@gerryo_Connor @flannerytony @redslimerick I didn't realise there was any difference betw these positions.
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Gerry O'Connor ‏@gerryo_Connor 15 Jun
@marialaoise @flannerytony @redslimerick The 1983 referenda supported by church means abortion up to 9 months when mother is suicidal
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Maria Laoise ‏@marialaoise 15 Jun
@gerryo_Connor @flannerytony @redslimerick Wow. This is really disillusioning. I have always had a lot of time for the Redemptorists.
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Gerry O'Connor ‏@gerryo_Connor 15 Jun
@marialaoise @flannerytony @redslimerick Twitter has limitations, not possible to have a wholesome conversation-
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Gerry O'Connor ‏@gerryo_Connor 15 Jun
@marialaoise @flannerytony @redslimerick The 1983 referendum disillusioned me as well, it was well intended but flawed
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Gerry O'Connor ‏@gerryo_Connor 15 Jun
@marialaoise @flannerytony @redslimerick The Reds had nothing to do with the 1983 referendum to the best of my knowledge
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Tony Flannery ‏@flannerytony 16 Jun
@gerryo_Connor @marialaoise @redslimerick In 83 pro-life wouldnt listen. Still don't. Ironically they will do most to bring abortion. Sad
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Maria Laoise ‏@marialaoise 16 Jun
@flannerytony @gerryo_Connor @redslimerick No, those pushing for liberal abortion laws will do most to bring abortion.
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Here's another, about the bishops' letter on the proposed abortion legislation:
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Tony Flannery ‏@flannerytony 15 Jun
Hope bishops letter is not read out at Mass I attend tomorrow; sick to death of topic; will be tempted to walk out!
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3:14 PM - 15 Jun 13 · Details
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And another, saying the government should just ignore the bishops on the abortion issue
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Tony Flannery ‏@flannerytony 11 Jun
Will the Gov. take on the bishops for saying they are misleading the public, or will they ignore them? If I was them I would do the latter
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11:18 AM - 11 Jun 13 · Details
Liam Foley ‏@yelofmail 11 Jun
@flannerytony Fr, are you doing this to cause friction between Ch. and State for personal gain or because Frank is telling you what to do?
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IrelandStandUp ‏@irelandstandup 11 Jun
@yelofmail @flannerytony many of our supporters believe Fr Flannery wrote the Cloyne speech & set in motion this friction eg embassy closure
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IrelandStandUp ‏@irelandstandup 11 Jun
@yelofmail @flannerytony this vendetta has hurt many good people in this country and will hurt @finegaeltoday too
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IrelandStandUp ‏@irelandstandup 11 Jun
@yelofmail @flannerytony the unborn are an innocent target
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Cora Sherlock ‏@corasherlock 12 Jun
Is @finegaeltoday taking advice from @flannerytony now? If so, this should be brought into open #transparency
Kate Bopp ‏@mrs_bopp 12 Jun
@corasherlock Isn't there a precautionary principle statute in EU regarding policies that may threaten public health? (Usually environment)
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Brian ‏@carroller2019 12 Jun
@corasherlock Cora, anything to say on Enda Kenny's revelations about what he's been receiving in the post from pro-lifers?
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Cora Sherlock ‏@corasherlock 12 Jun
Don't agree with it - nor with abuse many #prolifers receive. Bill allowing ab on request will unfortunately attract extremes @carroller2019
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Cora Sherlock ‏@corasherlock 12 Jun
@mrs_bopp Good point, must check it out.
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Liam Foley ‏@yelofmail 12 Jun
@corasherlock @carroller2019 If Enda doesn't like receiving post then maybe he should try another profession. Maybe teaching?
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David Shelton ‏@davidoshelton 12 Jun
@yelofmail Did you send Enda some of those letters Liam.??@felipemurrelli @corasherlock @carroller2019
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Liam Foley ‏@yelofmail 12 Jun
@davidoshelton @felipemurrelli @corasherlock @carroller2019 David, is that your way of avoiding my point about you lying over what I said?
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David Shelton ‏@davidoshelton 12 Jun
@yelofmail Do please go away Liam like a good man. Thanks @felipemurrelli @corasherlock @carroller2019
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Liam Foley ‏@yelofmail 12 Jun
@davidoshelton @felipemurrelli @corasherlock @carroller2019 So you like to patronize after you're caught lying? No, that doesn't work either
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Thérèse ‏@donum_Vitae 12 Jun
@corasherlock @irelandstandup Not just now. Is there a clandestine group at work here?
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Thérèse ‏@donum_Vitae 12 Jun
@yelofmail Also anyone can send anything and claim to be prolife but they may be pro-abortion with blood on their hands.
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Thérèse ‏@donum_Vitae 12 Jun
@corasherlock Is Flannery's brother an advisor to Enda Kenny? Join the dots.... click the boots....Who are Kenny's masters?
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Thérèse ‏@donum_Vitae 12 Jun
@yelofmail and anyone who authorises or approves that authorisation of the killing of the child in the womb has blood on their hands.
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IrelandStandUp ‏@irelandstandup 12 Jun
@donum_Vitae @corasherlock no longer clandestine, out in the open now, joint effort between atheists and ACP dissidents to undermine Church
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Here he seems to imply that if the Northern Ireland bishops have to put up with a liberal abortion regime so should we all:
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Tony Flannery
‏@flannerytony
Eamon Martin is bishops spokesperson on abortion issue. Northern bishops most prominent, even thought they have lived with 'liberal' regime
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5:10 AM - 11 Jun 13
Gearóid Robinson ‏@gerrobo 11 Jun
@flannerytony Hardly 'liberal'.
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Maria Laoise ‏@marialaoise 11 Jun
@flannerytony I don't know what you mean here. UK abortion law does not extend to the 6C. There is no 'liberal' regime.
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catholicus nua ‏@catholicusm 11 Jun
@flannerytony There is no liberal abortion regime in Northern Ireland. Crawl back under your rock with your Fine Gael anti-Catholic pals.
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Paul Moloney ‏@oceanclub 12 Jun
.@catholicusm @flannerytony You're a brave man hiding behind anonymity there.
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Lidia Matassa ‏@pimlids 12 Jun
@catholicusm @flannerytony Oh, there is that Christian tolerance again! Easy to be such a craven turd when you're hiding behind anonymity.
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Lidia Matassa ‏@pimlids 12 Jun
@oceanclub @catholicusm @flannerytony It might be one of those Americans that the panicked few here are importing: twtrland.com/profile/jacksjohnny …
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Paul Moloney ‏@oceanclub 12 Jun
@pimlids @catholicusm @flannerytony Oh no, his anonymity was easy to unveil.
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catholicus nua ‏@catholicusm 12 Jun
@pimlids Easy to be Tony Flannery when the Church you detest pays all your bills
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Maria Laoise ‏@marialaoise 15 Jun
@flannerytony I feel you're making a partitionist point here. Would you rather the 'Northern Bishops' knew their place & kept quiet?
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[Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha]

This stuff is unbelievable and really does show up Fr Flannery. Does he not realise there is nothing hip about cheerleading FG or Herod, not to mention his egregious position on the right to life of the unborn child?

[hibernicus]

Alasdair - some of Fr Flannery's posts give the impression that his main motivation in this is contempt for the bishops and delight at the prospect of their being humiliated. He certainly does come across as cheerleading for the government.
Here's another revealing exchange triggered by Fr Flannery suggesting that the pledge promoted by certain pro-life organisations not to vote FG again is a front for Fianna Fail. (I write as one who refused to sign that pledge because it doesn't take account of such possibilities as voting for an individual candidate who opposed the Bill, or for a FG candidate if the alternative is worse). It's a Youth Defence initiative and like many YD initiatives has not been thought through IMHO.
The pledge has being going the rounds for months, so it says a great deal about how little contact Fr Flannery has with pro-lifers that he has only just heard of it. Cora Sherlock of the Pro-Life Campaign who is a Twitter regular makes some very pertinent comments that he apparently considers beneath his dignity to answer:
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Tony Flannery
‏@flannerytony
People at pro-life rally in Dublin asked to sign pledge never to vote for Kenny again.Wonder what camp that pledge came from. Fianna Fail?!!
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2:44 AM - 11 Jun 13
Diorai D ‏@dekodd 11 Jun
@flannerytony So are you now officially working for Fine Gael? So I suppose this is what a state controlled church would look like.
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Liam Foley ‏@yelofmail 11 Jun
@flannerytony Fr Flannery, have you shared with people on Twitter your connections with Enda Kenny's inner circle yet? If not why not?
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Liam Foley ‏@yelofmail 11 Jun
.@flannerytony is now upset that people (outside the barriers) at #vigil4life were signing pledge not to vote for FG.
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Liam Foley ‏@yelofmail 11 Jun
.@dekodd @flannerytony I bet a lot of FG TDs will retweet that once Frank Flannery tells them about it.
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Cora Sherlock ‏@corasherlock 11 Jun
@flannerytony I find that a very strange comment. Clear that pledge comes from #prolife voters who will never vote for Party that intro ab
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Cora Sherlock ‏@corasherlock 11 Jun
@yelofmail What connections are those? @flannerytony
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rte watch ‏@rtewatch 11 Jun
@flannerytony @yelofmail Showing political bias there. I believe you are a brother of Frank Flannery former #fg director of elections.
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Liam Foley ‏@yelofmail 11 Jun
@corasherlock @flannerytony Fr Tony's brother Frank works as one of Enda's closest advisers.
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Cora Sherlock ‏@corasherlock 11 Jun
@yelofmail That places huge question mark over his querying #prolife voters who won't vote for FG again, surely? @flannerytony
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Liam Foley ‏@yelofmail 11 Jun
@corasherlock @flannerytony Without a doubt! And I've no axe to grind with FG, I'm a member, 3rd generation of my family to be in Fine Gael.
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Liam Foley ‏@yelofmail 11 Jun
@rtewatch @flannerytony This is a story of serious conflict of interest. @independent_ie or at least @irishcathnews need to write on this.
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Cora Sherlock ‏@corasherlock 11 Jun
@flannerytony Are you not involved in opposing a Bill that allows ab on request for full 9 mths of preg with no benefit to mother?
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4:14 AM - 11 Jun 13 · Details
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[Deleted]

Dear Friends,

As you know, the debate on this Bill - which will allow abortion in so called limited circumstances, including a risk to life from suicide – began in the Dáil yesterday morning. The first vote is expected at the conclusion of the second stage next week.

Please set aside a little time out of your day to email each of the TD's in your constituency to and asking them to consider voting against the proposed abortion legislation. It's better than doing nothing, at this emotive and frustrating time, and then perhaps regretting it after the bill has passed.

Please make it a personal email, and email all the TD's in your constituency and county individually, even if you're not a supporter of their particular party, and even if you know/suspect them to be pro abortion.

As emotive as this issue is, please keep your email's polite and factual and on the issue, and remember the issue is not religion, it is children's equal right to life. There may be quite a few neutral / undecided / wavering TD's out there.

Here's a link to all the TD's email addresses : www.oireachtas.ie/ViewDoc.asp?DocId=-1&CatID=138

If you get any well structured replies, please post them up here.

Please make your email personal to you in your own words, but if you want a few pointers/reminders regarding the key points from a pro life point of view, here are some links :

prolifecampaign.ie/?page_id=431

www.thelifeinstitute.net/blog/2013/05/24/6-key-reasons-why-abortion-bill-should-fail/


God Bless.

[Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha]

This may be clutching at straws, but I will quote Article 27 of the Constitution here in full:

Article 27

This Article applies to any Bill, other than a Bill expressed to be a Bill containing a proposal for the amendment of this Constitution, which shall have been deemed, by virtue of Article 23 hereof, to have been passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas.

1. A majority of the members of Seanad Éireann and not less than one-third of the members of Dáil Éireann may by a joint petition addressed to the President by them under this Article request the President to decline to sign and promulgate as a law any Bill to which this article applies on the ground that the Bill contains a proposal of such national importance that the will of the people thereon ought to be ascertained.

2. Every such petition shall be in writing and shall be signed by the petitioners whose signatures shall be verified in the manner prescribed by law.

3. Every such petition shall contain a statement of the particular ground or grounds on which the request is based, and shall be presented to the President not later than four days after the date on which the Bill shall have been deemed to have been passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas.

4. 1° Upon receipt of a petition addressed to him under this Article, the President shall forthwith consider such petition and shall, after consultation with the Council of State, pronounce his decision thereon not later than ten days after the date on which the Bill to which such petition relates shall have been deemed to have been passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas.

2° If the Bill or any provision thereof is or has been referred to the Supreme Court under Article 26 of this Constitution, it shall not be obligatory on the President to consider the petition unless or until the Supreme Court has pronounced a decision on such reference to the effect that the said Bill or the said provision thereof is not repugnant to this Constitution or to any provision thereof, and, if a decision to that effect is pronounced by the Supreme Court, it shall not be obligatory on the President to pronounce his decision on the petition before the expiration of six days after the day on which the decision of the Supreme Court to the effect aforesaid is pronounced.

5. 1° In every case in which the President decides that a Bill the subject of a petition under this Article contains a proposal of such national importance that the will of the people thereon ought to be ascertained, he shall inform the Taoiseach and the Chairman of each House of the Oireachtas accordingly in writing under his hand and Seal and shall decline to sign and promulgate such Bill as a law unless and until the proposal shall have been approved either

i by the people at a Referendum in accordance with the provisions of section 2 of Article 47 of this Constitution within a period of eighteen months from the date of the President’s decision, or

ii by a resolution of Dáil Éireann passed within the said period after a dissolution and re-assembly of Dáil Éireann.

2° Whenever a proposal contained in a Bill the subject of a petition under this Article shall have been approved either by the people or by a resolution of Dáil Éireann in accordance with the foregoing provisions of this section, such Bill shall as soon as may be after such approval be presented to the President for his signature and promulgation by him as a law and the President shall thereupon sign the Bill and duly promulgate it as a law.

6. In every case in which the President decides that a Bill the subject of a petition under this Article does not contain a proposal of such national importance that the will of the people thereon ought to be ascertained, he shall inform the Taoiseach and the Chairman of each House of the Oireachtas accordingly in writing under his hand and Seal, and such Bill shall be signed by the President not later than eleven days after the date on which the Bill shall have been deemed to have been passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas and shall be duly promulgated by him as a law.

I know a few TDs and senators are preparing to make this reference to President Higgins if the bill is passed in his current form. If so, it will be the first time this power was ever used since the Constitution was enacted. Whatever the President's personal opinions on abortion, he may have sympathy for this type of move. But if it is impossible to get your TD or local Senator to oppose the bill, try to get the to back the Article 27 petition.

I thought I knew the constitution pretty well, but this was news to me. Also, credit to Catherine Murphy TD (Kildare North, Independent), who is not a pro-lifer, but in the context to this story pointed out that this is one of the articles scheduled for deletion under Enda Kenny's proposed abolition of the Seanad. I am skeptical of this proposal anyway, but I would vote to keep the Seanad rather than surrender this one check that legislature has over the executive.

[hibernicus]

An American view on our current situation:
www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2013/06/abortion-in-ireland

[hibernicus]

In relation to the regularly-repeated claim that opposition to abortion is just a catholic thing - a couple of weeks ago there was a letter in the IRISH TIMES from a man (unfortunately I can't remember his name or the date) who pointed out that the Irish Baptists and Jehovah's Witnesses have come out against the misnamed PLP Bill in principle, while the Muslims have stated their opposition to the inclusion of suicide as grounds for abortion. He stated that he himself is a member of the Church of Ireland and is utterly opposed to this iniquitous Bill.
How different, how very different, from our own self-proclaimed "Taoiseach who happens to be Catholic"

[hibernicus]

Here is a link to the Facebook page for the oh-so-civilised pro-abort thugs who will be turning out in O'Connell Street on Saturday to jeer at the March for Life:
www.facebook.com/events/206970776120113/?ref=22
Here is a sample post, which the IRISH TIMES would be denouncing to high heaven if it was posted by a pro-lifer about pro-choicers:
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Brian O Flynn
Would it be dreadfully inappropriate to tie some of them up, shred one of their beloved signs and force-feed it to them? Ahem, just an innocent suggestion..
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Remember, everyone who is going on the march - these people want to provoke you so they can present all pro-lifers as thugs and lunatics. DO NOT LET YOURSELF BE PROVOKED - THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANT.
BE sure to be at PArnell Square for 2 pm on Saturday - we need a good turnout.

[hibernicus]

Just back from the March for Life, so I will record my impressions for future reference:
Very good turn-out; apparently the tail of the column was still making its way from Parnell Square onto O'Connell Street long after the first half of the march had arrived in Kildare Street and the speeches had begun. (I must say the speeches began too soon IMHO - they were already well under way when I got there, and I was in the first third of the procession. Eoghan De Faoite was speaking when I arrived - don't know who I missed).
I had intended to get to the Mass in St Saviour's beforehand , but didn't arrive in time. Pity - I like St Saviour's and it is good to see the two archbishops turning out to give moral support, even if this will help the pro-aborts to paint it as a Catholic thing. Of course priests, bishops and nuns are as much citizens as anyone else and equally entitled to express their opinions. I saw quite a few priests and nuns, including a couple of Franciscans in habits and some habited young Dominicans.
This being a YD event specifically Catholic banners were much more in evidence than at Pro-Life Campaign demos. I saw several banners of Our Lady of Guadalupe, a number of Papal banners, and one man carrying a picture of St Maria Goretti, whose feast-day it is. I also saw a Kerry pro-lifer with a t-shirt saying "St Maximilian Kolbe, pray for us". A large crucifix was carried near the front of the procession, and in her speech from the platform Bernadette Smyth of Precious Life made several specifically Catholic references. Everyone to their own taste (I should note that Bernie Smyth actively works with Protestant pro-lifers, some of whom would not have a high opinion of Catholicism, and in Northern Ireland it is a real achievement to have such cross-community support in the cause of life) but personally I prefer the PLC approach, because abortion is not a specifically Catholic issue, and the pro-aborts are always trying their damnedest to present being pro-life as a Catholic peculiarity, as if we were trying to make it compulsory for everyone to abstain from meat on Friday.

[hibernicus]

As with the Vigil for Life, I was very glad to see some New Irish among the demonstrators. There were several black marchers of African descent (two women and a man standing near me in Parnell Square holding signs appeared from their accents to be of African birth) and I also noticed several Filipinos of both sexes and a number of young people of South Asian origin among the marchers. I do not know whether these people were Catholic, Protestant, Islamic or of some other religion or none, but it was good to see them turning out for a good cause. They come here to do our hard and dirty work and I hate to hear them sneered at by a certain type of blathering bigot. They are following the same hard path trodden by so many Irish immigrants in the past - "Be just to the stranger amongst you, for remember you were strangers in the land of Egypt". Poles and other European immigrants are harder to distinguish by sight, but I did hear a man standing near me on Parnell Square talking into his mobile in Polish.
As usual after a march, I looked at some of the pro-abort sites to see their reactions, and on one of them I came across a post by a young woman who claimed she brought along her two children who are of mixed race and they were subjected to racist abuse by some person or persons among the marchers. I naturally treat complaints from pro-choicers about pro-lifers' behaviour with the greatest suspicion, and I note that none of her fellow pro-choicers who on the same page are denouncing March participants for bringing along their children to the march have suggested she might not have been wise to bring hers, but I regret to say there is a lunatic fringe in Irish society who are capable of such behaviour.
So for the sake of argument I will take her word for it, and I will say to her: On behalf of the great majority of pro-lifers at the march, I apologise for this disgraceful behaviour. I think your cause is evil and I will have more to say about the shameful provocation you and your friends engaged in today, but nothing could possibly justify the swinish abuse inflicted on you and your innocent children.
Again, taking her word for it, I say to the persons who abused her in that manner, assuming they exist - You should be ashamed of yourselves, insulting anyone, let alone innocent children, for their racial origins, and insulting a woman for being with a man of another race (I use the word conventionally, of course - I believe race is a social construct). If you really want to help the pro-life cause, shut up; better still, stay at home instead of using a great turn-out in defence of innocent life to vent your own psychological problems, and allowing the pro-aborts to use your ravings to damage our defence of unborn life.

[hibernicus]

The pro-aborts had gathered on the traffic island by the Spire. There were more of them than at the last march in Dublin two years ago (they estimate their own numbers at 400 and that seems about reasonable). They were predominantly young people of both sexes in their teens or early twenties, some of noticeably punk or goth appearance; there were also a number of older men. (I think this is the usual profile of far-left, and indeed far-right, movements; a high turnover of young activists and a core of older activists.) The Workers' Solidarity Movement and the Socialist Workers' Party certainly had signs, and I think I saw one from the Abortion Rights Campaign and one from Action on X. (Both the latter groups have significant student membership; there was a handwritten sign claiming to be from "UCD Pro Choice" - shade of Newman!) At the previous march the pro-aborts were only on the traffic island,so it was possible to avoid direct contact with them by staying on the side of the march nearest to the Clery's side of O'Connell Street. On this march, because of their greater numbers, they were able to put pickets on that side of the street as well as on the traffic island, so that for 2-300 yards the marchers had to run a gauntlet of signs and shouting pro-choicers yelling "Shame on you", waving signs accusing us of being liars (often using the most vulgar four-letter words) and of wishing for women's deaths, and in some instances literally pointing at us and shaking their fingers (I saw some young women with colour-dyed hair and metal studs doing this towards the end of the pro-abort picket). Not only was this a deliberate attempt to insult and provoke the marchers, it also made the Garda policing task more different since they had to put a line of Gardai on both sides of the street instead of just one.

Several of their signs were deliberately provocative and insulting. Several referred to clerical sex abuse; one sign was topped by a puppet of a priest waving a "Pro Life" sign, with his mouth open and his tongue hanging out, by implication in a display of paedophilic lust. Another sign had a drawing of a pair of hands and read "Pro Life? Protect Children from being raped by Catholic Priests". Another declared "Your moral authority comes from an international child-raping institution". All this of course displays how the pro-aborts rely on demonising pro-lifers to distract people from actually thinking about what being pro-abort entails, but they also exemplify how the negative witness we saw in the clerical abuse scandals has dissipated so much of the church's moral capital, and how we must come to terms with it in order to bear effective witness in the cause of justice and right.

Another one ranted "Get Your American Money off our Uteruses". There were several other references to American money, as this is one of the pro-aborts' obsessions - that pro-lifers are simply an "astroturf" movement sustained by well-funded American backers. (They didn't notice how full the collection buckets were at the end of the demonstration - I gave all I had on me, which wasn't much unfortunately, and had to find a cash machine on my way home.) I notice from the pro-abort sites that they are bandying around the presence of about 20 American AOH members with a banner (the AOH members did exist; I saw them standing in Molesworth Street during the platform speeches) as proof of the phantom American gold, just as a certain type of easily deluded lunatic can be found claiming that Alan Shatter is a frontman for the mythical Elders of Zion rather than criticising his actions on their merits. The difference is that the mass media will cover up the existence of the pro-abort fruitcakes or else treat their wild allegations as disinterested founts of light, wisdom and song, while they present pro-life fruitcakes as the hidden rulers of the pro-life movement.

Of course what the pro-aborts were trying to do with this, and with the oft-repeated accusation that the marchers were "nazis" (a claim the pro-aborts might like to explain to the participants mentioned in my previous post, if those pro-aborts cared in the least about truth instead of about demonising their opponents) was to provoke a reaction which would enable them to engage in further demonisation. They are claiming on their websites to have succeeded in this, and that some marchers were reckless enough to get into arguments with them (how wicked to be outraged by people who call you lying, murdering Nazi paedophiles) and in some instances to spit on them. I strongly suspect that we will see these allegations, true or false, given pride of place in tomorrow's newspaper coverage of the march, just as the RTE website seemed to be giving equal coverage to the 400 pro-choicers and 40,000 pro-lifers last time I looked at it.

I did not see any such incidents myself, just the pro-aborts yelling and shouting abuse as we went by, but I must say the stewards' handling of this part of the march left something to be desired. They were walking along at the side of the marchers shouting out slogans and getting us to respond "Pro- Life! You say Pro, we say Life" etc - while some marchers were getting up on the traffic island in the centre of the road. It was quite understandable that they should have got up on the island (the road was a bit crowded given the size of the march) but it seriously increased the risk of a clash with the pro-aborts who were standing on the island a few hundred yards further up. IMHO the stewards should have given more attention to getting people off the traffic island and down into the road, and should have been audibly reminding people not to be provoked by the pro-aborts into giving them what they wanted.

[Young Ireland]

Jul 6, 2013 18:40:14 GMT hibernicus said:

As with the Vigil for Life, I was very glad to see some New Irish among the demonstrators. There were several black marchers of African descent (two women and a man standing near me in Parnell Square holding signs appeared from their accents to be of African birth) and I also noticed several Filipinos of both sexes and a number of young people of South Asian origin among the marchers. I do not know whether these people were Catholic, Protestant, Islamic or of some other religion or none, but it was good to see them turning out for a good cause. They come here to do our hard and dirty work and I hate to hear them sneered at by a certain type of blathering bigot. They are following the same hard path trodden by so many Irish immigrants in the past - "Be just to the stranger amongst you, for remember you were strangers in the land of Egypt". Poles and other European immigrants are harder to distinguish by sight, but I did hear a man standing near me on Parnell Square talking into his mobile in Polish.
As usual after a march, I looked at some of the pro-abort sites to see their reactions, and on one of them I came across a post by a young woman who claimed she brought along her two children who are of mixed race and they were subjected to racist abuse by some person or persons among the marchers. I naturally treat complaints from pro-choicers about pro-lifers' behaviour with the greatest suspicion, and I note that none of her fellow pro-choicers who on the same page are denouncing March participants for bringing along their children to the march have suggested she might not have been wise to bring hers, but I regret to say there is a lunatic fringe in Irish society who are capable of such behaviour.
So for the sake of argument I will take her word for it, and I will say to her: On behalf of the great majority of pro-lifers at the march, I apologise for this disgraceful behaviour. I think your cause is evil and I will have more to say about the shameful provocation you and your friends engaged in today, but nothing could possibly justify the swinish abuse inflicted on you and your innocent children.
Again, taking her word for it, I say to the persons who abused her in that manner, assuming they exist - You should be ashamed of yourselves, insulting anyone, let alone innocent children, for their racial origins, and insulting a woman for being with a man of another race (I use the word conventionally, of course - I believe race is a social construct). If you really want to help the pro-life cause, shut up; better still, stay at home instead of using a great turn-out in defence of innocent life to vent your own psychological problems, and allowing the pro-aborts to use your ravings to damage our defence of unborn life.

Again, the multi-cultural make up of the Rally at least deprives the pro-choicers the opportunity to present us as ultra-nationalist racists. Like Hibernicus, I'm not sure that the above event actually took place, but if it did, I second what he has just said.

[Young Ireland]

Jul 6, 2013 19:23:02 GMT hibernicus said:

The pro-aborts had gathered on the traffic island by the Spire. There were more of them than at the last march in Dublin two years ago (they estimate their own numbers at 400 and that seems about reasonable). They were predominantly young people of both sexes in their teens or early twenties, some of noticeably punk or goth appearance; there were also a number of older men. (I think this is the usual profile of far-left, and indeed far-right, movements; a high turnover of young activists and a core of older activists.) The Workers' Solidarity Movement and the Socialist Workers' Party certainly had signs, and I think I saw one from the Abortion Rights Campaign and one from Action on X. (Both the latter groups have significant student membership; there was a handwritten sign claiming to be from "UCD Pro Choice" - shade of Newman!) At the previous march the pro-aborts were only on the traffic island,so it was possible to avoid direct contact with them by staying on the side of the march nearest to the Clery's side of O'Connell Street. On this march, because of their greater numbers, they were able to put pickets on that side of the street as well as on the traffic island, so that for 2-300 yards the marchers had to run a gauntlet of signs and shouting pro-choicers yelling "Shame on you", waving signs accusing us of being liars (often using the most vulgar four-letter words) and of wishing for women's deaths, and in some instances literally pointing at us and shaking their fingers (I saw some young women with colour-dyed hair and metal studs doing this towards the end of the pro-abort picket). Not only was this a deliberate attempt to insult and provoke the marchers, it also made the Garda policing task more different since they had to put a line of Gardai on both sides of the street instead of just one.

This is not surprising and indeed, had it been the other way round, the media would be howling about "extreme pro-lifers".

Several of their signs were deliberately provocative and insulting. Several referred to clerical sex abuse; one sign was topped by a puppet of a priest waving a "Pro Life" sign, with his mouth open and his tongue hanging out, by implication in a display of paedophilic lust. Another sign had a drawing of a pair of hands and read "Pro Life? Protect Children from being raped by Catholic Priests". Another declared "Your moral authority comes from an international child-raping institution". All this of course displays how the pro-aborts rely on demonising pro-lifers to distract people from actually thinking about what being pro-abort entails, but they also exemplify how the negative witness we saw in the clerical abuse scandals has dissipated so much of the church's moral capital, and how we must come to terms with it in order to bear effective witness in the cause of justice and right.[\quote]

The scandals are indeed shocking but don't they think that that mantra has been overused a bit by now. (I am NOT, in case anybody is wondering minimising the gravity of what happened).

Another one ranted "Get Your American Money off our Uteruses". There were several other references to American money, as this is one of the pro-aborts' obsessions - that pro-lifers are simply an "astroturf" movement sustained by well-funded American backers. (They didn't notice how full the collection buckets were at the end of the demonstration - I gave all I had on me, which wasn't much unfortunately, and had to find a cash machine on my way home.) I notice from the pro-abort sites that they are bandying around the presence of about 20 American AOH members with a banner (the AOH members did exist; I saw them standing in Molesworth Street during the platform speeches) as proof of the phantom American gold, just as a certain type of easily deluded lunatic can be found claiming that Alan Shatter is a frontman for the mythical Elders of Zion rather than criticising his actions on their merits. The difference is that the mass media will cover up the existence of the pro-abort fruitcakes or else treat their wild allegations as disinterested founts of light, wisdom and song, while they present pro-life fruitcakes as the hidden rulers of the pro-life movement.[\quote]

Yet they are also receiving money from the US, courtesy of Atlantic Philantrophies and Planned Parenthood. So the pro-choice lobby are no on to talk about foreign capital.

Of course what the pro-aborts were trying to do with this, and with the oft-repeated accusation that the marchers were "nazis" (a claim the pro-aborts might like to explain to the participants mentioned in my previous post, if those pro-aborts cared in the least about truth instead of about demonising their opponents) was to provoke a reaction which would enable them to engage in further demonisation. They are claiming on their websites to have succeeded in this, and that some marchers were reckless enough to get into arguments with them (how wicked to be outraged by people who call you lying, murdering Nazi paedophiles) and in some instances to spit on them. I strongly suspect that we will see these allegations, true or false, given pride of place in tomorrow's newspaper coverage of the march, just as the RTE website seemed to be giving equal coverage to the 400 pro-choicers and 40,000 pro-lifers last time I looked at it.[\quote]

Ignore them. Behaviour like that doesn't merit a response of any kind.

[Young Ireland]

As an afterthought, my main concern is that campaigning for a referendum is a massive gamble, especially when it is claimed that the majority of people are pro-life (Unfortunately at this stage, I think it is wishful thinking to claim such a thing,and were it to be defeated, it would result in a massive loss of face for pro-lifers.) Interestingly the last time we got a referendum in 2002, YD rejected it claiming that it didn't go far enough. I would not be surprised if they now regretted that move. Of course, that is all in the past and we have to work with what we have, but I think a Supreme Court challenge invoking Article 40.3.3 would be more likely to succeed as well as being less risky from a pro-life perspective.

[hibernicus]

The pro-abort sites are claiming the march was dominated by elderly people. There were quite a lot of elderly people but I was also impressed by the number of young people including couples with young children. [ADDENDUM - The Workers' Solidarity Movement Facebook page is claiming there were no women of childbearing age there, which is absolutely false as I saw with my own eyes; they also claim there were 7-13,000 marchers max; apparently being an anarchist emancipates you from trivial considerations of truth and falsehood.]

What I will say is that it seemed predominantly working-class and rural, which may reflect the YD ethos (several county flags were on display and Donegal in particular seemed very well represented; I met a Cork pro-lifer whom I know personally). The stewards seemed to want to keep us shouting slogans all the time, which IMHO is not very satisfying; a few basic songs (e.g. A Nation Once Again or hymns) might have been more impressive, since even if only a minority knew them that would still have been an impressive volume of sound.

After running the pro-abort gauntlet at the Spire we went across the bridge and through D'Olier Street to College Green, then along Nassau street and up into Kildare Street. The platform was opposite the Department of Industry & Commerce and Department of Agriculture buildings, with screens further down Kildare Street and in Molesworth Street. (If anyone is trying to gauge attendance by looking at photos of Kildare Street, they should note that in addition to the overflow into Molesworth Street and the backup of people making their way up from Parnell Square, quite a few people near the platform moved into Kildare Place for the shade and these might not be visible on photos of Kildare Street.) The speakers seem to have begun soon after the head of the march arrived (unlike the earlier Vigils in Merrion Square, where the speakers didn't begin until the square had filled up.)

Eoghan de Faoite, Caroline Simons, Declan Ganley, Bernie Smyth and Niamh Ui Bhriain (Nic Mhathuna as was) made speeches. I hadn't realised Ganley had such an English tinge to his accent. There was also a woman called Harkin who described being advised to abort her daughter (now six years old) who has Edwards Syndrome; she spoke passionately of how wrong it was to describe such children as "incapable of life". This was the best speech IMHO, certainly the most moving. Mr Ganley also described how his wife turned down advice to abort a child who was diagnosed as possibly having problems, to explain how passionate he feels about the subject. Mattie McGrath was announced as being on the platform but he didn't speak. There were cheers for the rebel FG and SF TDs and also for Lucinda Creighton (I saw one sign reading "Don't Mind Enda, Follow Lucinda"). Niamh Ui B emphasised the pro-life pledge not to vote for FG again and spoke of building a pro-life alternative (she introduced five volunteers who gathered such pledges.) The sun was a real source of discomfort especially for older people. It broke up about 5 and a lot of people headed for buses on Nassau Street.

There were a couple of pipers and drummers on the march. I noticed a group of people flying the old gold harp-on-a-green background flag with Eire Go Brach on it (there were four flags, two of which were upside down). There used to be a fringe group of that name but I know very little about them and hadn't heard of their being active lately, so I'm not sure was it them or just a coincidence.

BTW Niamh Ui Bhriain spoke of repeated attacks on YD headquarters (their bins were set on fire yesterday apparently) and of women who work in their offices receiving death threats and rape threats. Will our lamestream media who so lovingly index every item of hatemail received by pro-PLP TDs (and I condemn all such hatemail whoever it is directed towards) pay any attention to this? No they will not!