National Identity

[irishconfederate]

Hello,

Please check out the website:

www.newirelandvision.com/index.html

Its interesting

It says its "Promoting a participatory democracy in a confederal Ireland, through the process of peace"

I just stumbled across it.

Pax

[hibernicus]

A couple of points, Irish Confederate:
First, the point about Cuba and nationalism is quite legitimate - Castro presented himself at the beginning as much as an "Ortodoxo" - supporter of an opposition party which claimed that the Cuban war for independence of the 1890s had been betrayed through the influence of American imperialism and needed to be revived - as a Marxist. (I might add that he also explicitly denounced a tradition of Latin American C20 conservative thought which argued that it had been a mistake to break with Spain.
The question which Fennell does not really address is this - at what point does the price required to assert distinctiveness become too high? North Korea and the Khmer RoUge are extreme examples of nationalist-marxist regimes which celebrated national self-sufficiency and the eradication of foreign influences. I'd definitely rather be a toad in a ditch than embrace either of those. I'm not sure Fennell would.
Second, I have my doubts about whether the thinkers you list form a single tradition because some of their positions are so opposed to one another. Ivor Browne, for example, seems to me to be an anarchist who sees organised society as systematically oppressing the individual and takes this to the point of paranoia. Anthony Coughlan, on the other hand, is an old-fashioned state socialist who sees the nation-state as the instrument of democracy. Kiberd and Deane (especially the latter) are programmatic secularists who see nationalism as inherently modernist and secular and present non-secular elements as simply colonial mimicry. Ray Crotty was an anti-federalist in the sense that he saw decentralisation as a further instrument of EU divide and rule; that's quite the opposite of Fennell and Barrington.
I think coherent forms of oppositional thought can be developed from these thinkers, but to lump them all together is having your cake and eating it. (This BTW is something Fennell often goes in for; he will list various Irish Revival thinkers and say they all said the same thing which is the same as what he says himself, even though some of those he names were centralists and others decentralists, some were secularists and others religious believers, and some were even unionists.) IMHO the first step in learning from others is to acknowledge that there are people who disagree with you and try to understand why they do so.

[irishconfederate]

Thanks Hibernicus.

To be honest my aim is to try and rest the vision of a federal Ireland on more then one person - Mr Fennell.

A book came in today by Brian Caul, called 'Towards a Federal Ireland'. He was born in 1943 and he's from a Presbyterian family. It looks a good book.

I think Desmond Fennell wouldn't go so far with securing distinctive identity, he has preferred pursuing peace to what he has called full justice for the peoples in Northern Ireland and in other writings I personally find him quite a sane/fair person.

I hope Brian Caul's and John Robb's vision of a federal/confederal Ireland catches on.

Pax

[irishconfederate]

Hello,

Much spadework has been done towards building a federal and democratic Ireland in a mass of thinking and writing since the 60s:

'Charles McCarthy, The Distasteful Challenge (1968) and Tom Barrington, From Big Government to Local Government (1975) and The Irish Administrative System (1980) - all published by the Institute of Public Administration, Dublin; John Robb, Sell-Out or Opportunity? (New Ireland Movement, Belfast 1972); D. Fennell, Sketches of the New Ireland (Association for the Advancement of Self-Government, Galway 1972); Beyond Nationalism, Chs. 3 and 4, (Ward River Press, Swords 1985); Nice People and Rednecks, pp. 152-8, Gill and MacMillan 1986); and 'A Federal Ireland' in John McGarry, ed., Options for a Divided Society: Proposals for a Way Forward in Northern Ireland (Oxford University Press); Muintir na Tíre Working Group, Towards a New Democracy, (Institute of Public Administration, Dublin 1985); Joseph Lee, ed., Ireland: Towards a Sense of Place, (Cork University Press 1985); John Roden, Donal de Buitleir and Donal O Brolchain, 'A Design for Democracy' in Administration, Vol. 34, No.2 (1986); Raymond Crotty, Ireland in Crisis (Brandon Press, Dingle 1986); John Goodwillie, Colours in the Rainbow: Ecology, Socialism and Ireland (published by the author, Dublin 1988); Richard Kearney, ed., Across the Frontiers: Ireland in the 1990s, (Wolfhound Press, Dublin 1988); New Ireland Group, A Process Based on the Principle of Consensus (New Ireland Group, Belfast 1989); and the papers read to the Constitution Club, 1986-8, c/o Dr Roy Johnston, P.O. Box 1881, Dublin 6. Several of the works mentioned contain lists of other relevant publications.'

Also, there are the following related websites I know of:

www.deborda.org/

www.reinstate48.ie/

www.1yi.ie/

newirelandvision.com/

Sometimes I think if this spadework could be taken up by Irish people, and added to with their talents, then there could be a real positive movement in Ireland that could be for the bettering of our lives and our country. Sometimes I think that this opportunity is just sitting there for us to grab at this time. And that this federal Ireland with real democracy can be seen as indeed a renewal of our Gaelic heritage.

' So, if you want to see power to the people look closely, at least as a first step, at what is happening in the regions. Are they given uniform boundaries? Are they being given adequate public representation? Are they being given adequate administrative underpinning? Are they based on areas that can grow into real communities? Are there plans to transfer real powers to them? '

'From Big Government To Local Government', T.J. Barrington

[Young Ireland]

Nov 23, 2016 19:56:55 GMT irishconfederate said:

Hello,

Much spadework has been done towards building a federal and democratic Ireland in a mass of thinking and writing since the 60s:

'Charles McCarthy, The Distasteful Challenge (1968) and Tom Barrington, From Big Government to Local Government (1975) and The Irish Administrative System (1980) - all published by the Institute of Public Administration, Dublin; John Robb, Sell-Out or Opportunity? (New Ireland Movement, Belfast 1972); D. Fennell, Sketches of the New Ireland (Association for the Advancement of Self-Government, Galway 1972); Beyond Nationalism, Chs. 3 and 4, (Ward River Press, Swords 1985); Nice People and Rednecks, pp. 152-8, Gill and MacMillan 1986); and 'A Federal Ireland' in John McGarry, ed., Options for a Divided Society: Proposals for a Way Forward in Northern Ireland (Oxford University Press); Muintir na Tíre Working Group, Towards a New Democracy, (Institute of Public Administration, Dublin 1985); Joseph Lee, ed., Ireland: Towards a Sense of Place, (Cork University Press 1985); John Roden, Donal de Buitleir and Donal O Brolchain, 'A Design for Democracy' in Administration, Vol. 34, No.2 (1986); Raymond Crotty, Ireland in Crisis (Brandon Press, Dingle 1986); John Goodwillie, Colours in the Rainbow: Ecology, Socialism and Ireland (published by the author, Dublin 1988); Richard Kearney, ed., Across the Frontiers: Ireland in the 1990s, (Wolfhound Press, Dublin 1988); New Ireland Group, A Process Based on the Principle of Consensus (New Ireland Group, Belfast 1989); and the papers read to the Constitution Club, 1986-8, c/o Dr Roy Johnston, P.O. Box 1881, Dublin 6. Several of the works mentioned contain lists of other relevant publications.'

Also, there are the following related websites I know of:

www.deborda.org/

www.reinstate48.ie/

www.1yi.ie/

newirelandvision.com/

Sometimes I think if this spadework could be taken up by Irish people, and added to with their talents, then there could be a real positive movement in Ireland that could be for the bettering of our lives and our country. Sometimes I think that this opportunity is just sitting there for us to grab at this time. And that this federal Ireland with real democracy can be seen as indeed a renewal of our Gaelic heritage.

' So, if you want to see power to the people look closely, at least as a first step, at what is happening in the regions. Are they given uniform boundaries? Are they being given adequate public representation? Are they being given adequate administrative underpinning? Are they based on areas that can grow into real communities? Are there plans to transfer real powers to them? '

'From Big Government To Local Government', T.J. Barrington

Nice to hear from you again, Irish Confederate. Personally, I'm fairly happy with the single transferable vote, it's quite a good system, even if the counts are slow. What I would like to see though is more frequent elections (say reducing the term of the Dail and the councils in particular). Recall as well was something mentioned in one of the links and that would certainly be very handy to have.

I have given a bit more thought to your strategy, and I think that I would not implement the provinces until we have a United Ireland, for at present, Leinster would have far too much influence, whereas Ulster could provide a decent counterweight in an all-island government. What I propose instead are nine regions, which would be similar to the current regional assemblies, except that Mid-East would be split into North-East (Meath and Louth) and Kildare-Wicklow.

Once the regions are established, the number of Dail seats can be reduced to 100, though this would require a referendum, and the Seanad to 50. In Dublin, as well, there needs to be one assembly for the whole county, which could again be capped at 100 seats. Legislators there could probably be paid enough to allow them to work full-time. This would then allow us to break the 4 existing councils down into 13 more local councils which would better reflect local identity:

• Dublin City North Central (covering the area bounded by the Liffey, the Royal Canal and the Phoenix Park, but also including the Docklands)
• Dublin City North West (Cabra, Finglas, Ballymun, etc.)
• Dublin City North East (Killester, Contarf, Raheny, Coolock, Howth?)
• Dublin City South West (Ballyfermot, Crumlin, Harold's Cross, Kilmainham)
• Dublin City South East (South City Centre, Dublin 4, Rathmines)
• West Dublin (Dublin 15)
• Swords-Malahide
• North Fingal (Balbriggan)
• Lucan (N4 corridor)
• Greater Tallaght (incl. Firhouse, Citywest etc.)
• Clondalkin (N7 corridor)
• Rathdown (Dundrum, Sandyford, Balinteer, etc.)
• Dun Laoighre (incl. Blackrock, Dalkey all the way down the coast to Shankill)

These are only rough sketches, but that is the sort of thing I have in mind.

[Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha]

I think this is more about town councils or municipal authorities rather than regional authorities. What's under discussion just points to over centralisation in the 26 counties

[Young Ireland]

Nov 24, 2016 10:23:29 GMT Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha said:

I think this is more about town councils or municipal authorities rather than regional authorities. What's under discussion just points to over centralisation in the 26 counties

True, those structures badly need to be strengthed as well. It isn't an either/or situation in my view but both/and. I really don't think that Dublin has been served well at all by having 4 councils: I suspect that it has contributed to the out-of-control urban sprawl of the Dublin suburbs as the councils compete with one another for rates. Having a single authority for the area, with more local councils below to compensate would allow for more effective planning than is currently the case, and give communities that are currently competing for resources in over-sized councils representation in their own right (Fingal is a good example of this: you have the strongly urban Dublin 15, the emerging conurbation of Swords-Malahide and the relatively rural Balbriggan area all competing for the same resources when their populations are sufficient to warrant councils in their own right).

[Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha]

One of the few examples of a regional authority here is Údarás na Gaeltachta. Might merit examination.

[irishconfederate]

I favour a movement towards a federal Ireland irrespective of whether we have a united Ireland. Though I do think that working towards a federal Ireland will bring about the favourable conditions for a united Ireland. I think founding a federal republic of Ireland from the Republic of Ireland utilising the four provinces in the federal structure can open the way to the Ulster British joining an all-Ireland polity as they could join it as Ulstermen and have the strong sense of self-governance which they would require. There have been people from Ulster British stock like Brian Caul and John Robb who have campaigned for a federal/confederal all-Ireland polity and wrote books advocating it so the will is there.

In my heart and mind I see a dual movement going one. One is the movement for the Republic being transformed to a federal Ireland. The inequality between the provinces being addressed by suitable checks and balances - as there are checks and balances in Switzerland between unequal cantons. The other movement is the all-Ireland one towards call it a Confederation. Confederation brings to mind the Confederation of Kilkenny, the Young Ireland movement too, Switzerland, and also I think implies that some Regions/Districts, say the Ulster British ones, could maintain a right to secession. That could give the Ulster British, or those of their community that require it, an adequate sense of self-governance that might be required to encourage them to join an all-Ireland polity. "Confederation" links us historically back including the link with Gaelic Tuatha, but also with Switzerland - a model for us in some aspects.

The movement of the Irish would be one based on a quest for federalism/local government and for real democracy. "Real democracy" implying perhaps some sort, to a lesser or greater extent, of direct democratic provision. There are movements already in the Republic towards establishing such provisions. The movement towards a federal republic would also have a localist element to it as people will be working for a self-governing Connacht, or Cork City, or Dingle. Local residents associations, history societies, business associations are potential building blocks, which a national movement could work with.

I think also that somehow this movement towards a federal, real democratic Ireland can link us mentally with perhaps Iceland, Switzerland and maybe Nordic countries. This could help us see ourselves as a nation on the periphery of Europe in some respects, and maybe help us to see ourselves as a country that can have enterprising and pioneering social policies, one that might have nationalised gas or mines, one that has a pioneering educational system, and a country that is a maritime one.

One thing I often consider is that the Irish Abroad may have to be mobilised, as they have been in the past, to help with the cause.

The need for an adequate amount of independence, which means exiting the E.U, is an important aspect for this national enterprise. Thinking about independence helps us to see ourselves as what we are; a nation in the world, one that can pioneer its own future, stand on its own feet, and draw from the resources of its people. Thought about independence jolts us into respecting ourselves as a nation. It is the necessary attribute that enables us to see what is necessary for us to do in order to be a nation once again. Europe needs us to be independent for the benefit of Europe, we need Ireland to be self-governing as a whole so that our country can be self-governing in its parts.

Pax

[Young Ireland]

Nov 28, 2016 20:15:24 GMT irishconfederate said:

I favour a movement towards a federal Ireland irrespective of whether we have a united Ireland. Though I do think that working towards a federal Ireland will bring about the favourable conditions for a united Ireland. I think founding a federal republic of Ireland from the Republic of Ireland utilising the four provinces in the federal structure can open the way to the Ulster British joining an all-Ireland polity as they could join it as Ulstermen and have the strong sense of self-governance which they would require. There have been people from Ulster British stock like Brian Caul and John Robb who have campaigned for a federal/confederal all-Ireland polity and wrote books advocating it so the will is there.

In my heart and mind I see a dual movement going one. One is the movement for the Republic being transformed to a federal Ireland. The inequality between the provinces being addressed by suitable checks and balances - as there are checks and balances in Switzerland between unequal cantons. The other movement is the all-Ireland one towards call it a Confederation. Confederation brings to mind the Confederation of Kilkenny, the Young Ireland movement too, Switzerland, and also I think implies that some Regions/Districts, say the Ulster British ones, could maintain a right to secession. That could give the Ulster British, or those of their community that require it, an adequate sense of self-governance that might be required to encourage them to join an all-Ireland polity. "Confederation" links us historically back including the link with Gaelic Tuatha, but also with Switzerland - a model for us in some aspects.

The movement of the Irish would be one based on a quest for federalism/local government and for real democracy. "Real democracy" implying perhaps some sort, to a lesser or greater extent, of direct democratic provision. There are movements already in the Republic towards establishing such provisions. The movement towards a federal republic would also have a localist element to it as people will be working for a self-governing Connacht, or Cork City, or Dingle. Local residents associations, history societies, business associations are potential building blocks, which a national movement could work with.

I think also that somehow this movement towards a federal, real democratic Ireland can link us mentally with perhaps Iceland, Switzerland and maybe Nordic countries. This could help us see ourselves as a nation on the periphery of Europe in some respects, and maybe help us to see ourselves as a country that can have enterprising and pioneering social policies, one that might have nationalised gas or mines, one that has a pioneering educational system, and a country that is a maritime one.

One thing I often consider is that the Irish Abroad may have to be mobilised, as they have been in the past, to help with the cause.

The need for an adequate amount of independence, which means exiting the E.U, is an important aspect for this national enterprise. Thinking about independence helps us to see ourselves as what we are; a nation in the world, one that can pioneer its own future, stand on its own feet, and draw from the resources of its people. Thought about independence jolts us into respecting ourselves as a nation. It is the necessary attribute that enables us to see what is necessary for us to do in order to be a nation once again. Europe needs us to be independent for the benefit of Europe, we need Ireland to be self-governing as a whole so that our country can be self-governing in its parts.

Pax

Very interesting. I would have one concern about the use of the provinces in the 26-county context. The part of Ulster in the Republic is split in two parts by the border. If we were to use the provinces (and I do think that that setup would only be feasible under an all-island state), there would need to be temporary provisions such that Connacht and Ulster would be ruled as a single unit until such time as there is unity. Even if there is a mechanism for redistribution, I think that Leinster would be too powerful in a 26-county scenario, and would enjoy a position like that of Prussia in Germany prior to 1945, where it would have a disproportionate influence on the other provinces. This would be lessened if the North joined, but until then, I think it would be better to use the regions as the second-tier of government.

[irishconfederate]

I think the Regions being the second tier of government could work and I would back the idea. For the reasons stated regarding the Ulster British, I do think that if the Regions were the second tier it might be helpful if the provinces had even some functioning political personality. That they had maybe assemblies for supra- regional planning, for things like infrastructure. They don't need to be a tier of government exactly. Not at first. Maybe down the line as you said. But it might be something to entice some of the Ulster British into the all-Ireland building venture.

If we worked for a present Northern Ireland federated into self-governing Irish and Ulster British Regions, then down the line joining an all-Ireland polity wouldn't feel that threatening to some of the Ulster British. Plus, it would benefit building peace in the present. In an all-Ireland polity they would essentially have the autonomy of state within a Confederation of similar states. And retain the right to secession. An Ulster British Region could stay within the British system for example, one might join the all-Ireland polity. The all Ireland state might even have an enclave of territory in the British state, for example West Belfast could be an enclave (attached to an Irish East Ulster Regional government say) of the all-Ireland state should an Ulster British Belfast Region decide to remain in the British state. If some of the Irish in the Republic seek to build a Federal Republic then this movement of Irish people would be inevitably be taken up by some of the Irish in the six counties.

Using the Provinces as the second tier of government provides some benefits which the Regions wouldn't provide. The Provinces have at present at least some personality....history....role in sports, etc. If we start from Regions then we are mainly carving out areas on the map where we see have, at the least, the seeds of a common consciousness. Some of these Regions we draw out might even correspond to historical regions, for example like Thomond - a kingdom of Gaelic Ireland. That might be helpful for some of us Irish to see these new Regions having precedence in Gaelic Ireland, it would provide a more emotional connection for some, and emotion is what we need for people to get involved in this building of a self-governing Ireland of self-governing Regions.

I have to look back at some of your posts Young Ireland to find out again how many Regions would you propose again to be in a Federated Republic of Ireland?

Lately I've been thinking that a movement towards a federal Ireland.....would have to grow richer then just being federal, self-governing and free as I put it.........it would have to develop layers like......a federal, neutral, maritime Ireland, a literary nation, long freedom struggle, containing a historic Catholic community within it. Providing that richness/emotion I've been thinking is key to moving people towards building a Federal Ireland.

God bless

[Young Ireland]

Dec 9, 2016 20:15:45 GMT irishconfederate said:

I think the Regions being the second tier of government could work and I would back the idea. For the reasons stated regarding the Ulster British, I do think that if the Regions were the second tier it might be helpful if the provinces had even some functioning political personality. That they had maybe assemblies for supra- regional planning, for things like infrastructure. They don't need to be a tier of government exactly. Not at first. Maybe down the line as you said. But it might be something to entice some of the Ulster British into the all-Ireland building venture.

If we worked for a present Northern Ireland federated into self-governing Irish and Ulster British Regions, then down the line joining an all-Ireland polity wouldn't feel that threatening to some of the Ulster British. Plus, it would benefit building peace in the present. In an all-Ireland polity they would essentially have the autonomy of state within a Confederation of similar states. And retain the right to secession. An Ulster British Region could stay within the British system for example, one might join the all-Ireland polity. The all Ireland state might even have an enclave of territory in the British state, for example West Belfast could be an enclave (attached to an Irish East Ulster Regional government say) of the all-Ireland state should an Ulster British Belfast Region decide to remain in the British state. If some of the Irish in the Republic seek to build a Federal Republic then this movement of Irish people would be inevitably be taken up by some of the Irish in the six counties.

Using the Provinces as the second tier of government provides some benefits which the Regions wouldn't provide. The Provinces have at present at least some personality....history....role in sports, etc. If we start from Regions then we are mainly carving out areas on the map where we see have, at the least, the seeds of a common consciousness. Some of these Regions we draw out might even correspond to historical regions, for example like Thomond - a kingdom of Gaelic Ireland. That might be helpful for some of us Irish to see these new Regions having precedence in Gaelic Ireland, it would provide a more emotional connection for some, and emotion is what we need for people to get involved in this building of a self-governing Ireland of self-governing Regions.

I have to look back at some of your posts Young Ireland to find out again how many Regions would you propose again to be in a Federated Republic of Ireland?

Lately I've been thinking that a movement towards a federal Ireland.....would have to grow richer then just being federal, self-governing and free as I put it.........it would have to develop layers like......a federal, neutral, maritime Ireland, a literary nation, long freedom struggle, containing a historic Catholic community within it. Providing that richness/emotion I've been thinking is key to moving people towards building a Federal Ireland.

God bless

Certainly, I would have no objection to using the provinces if the North decided to join. I suppose my main opposition to using them in a 26-county context is based on the dominance that Leinster would have in such a set-up, as well as the fragmented boundaries of Ulster. As regards self-determination for the Ulster people, certainly I agree with that in principle, the only problem I would have with this is that it could result in a very fragmented Northern Ireland which would be a nightmare to govern. There would have to be co-operation with the UK in such a scenario, otherwise there could be crime havens springing up on the open border. My own view is that there should be an in-out referendum in the North and if it is in, then we can add the provincial layer, if not I think that the people have spoken and we should plan according to the regions only scenario.

I like your idea of giving the regions historical names, it certainly would make people more receptive to the idea. As for the regions, how about:

• County Dublin
• Louth and Meath
• Kildare and Wicklow
• South-East (Waterford, Wexford, Kilkenny, Carlow and South Tipperary)
• South-West (Cork and Kerry)
• Thomond (Limerick, Clare and North Tipperary)
• West (Galway, Mayo and Roscommon)
• Midlands (Longford, Westmeath, Offaly and Laois)
• Breifne? (Donegal, Sligo, Leitrim, Cavan and Monaghan)

If the North joins, I would add the following regions:

• Greater Belfast
• North-East Ulster (Coleraine, Ballymena, Larne, Antrim, Magerfelt, etc.)
• West Ulster (West Co.Derry, West Tyrone, Fermanagh, Donegal to be transferred from Breifne)
• South Ulster (Co. Armagh, East Tyrone, South and West Co.Down, Cavan and Monaghan to be transferred from Breifne)
• Sligo and Leitrim would join the rest of Connacht to form a unitary region.
• South Leinster would become part of "Munster" to avoid breaking up the South-East region.

I hope that helps.

[assisi]

Dec 9, 2016 20:15:45 GMT irishconfederate said:

I think the Regions being the second tier of government could work and I would back the idea. For the reasons stated regarding the Ulster British, I do think that if the Regions were the second tier it might be helpful if the provinces had even some functioning political personality. That they had maybe assemblies for supra- regional planning, for things like infrastructure. They don't need to be a tier of government exactly. Not at first. Maybe down the line as you said. But it might be something to entice some of the Ulster British into the all-Ireland building venture.

If we worked for a present Northern Ireland federated into self-governing Irish and Ulster British Regions, then down the line joining an all-Ireland polity wouldn't feel that threatening to some of the Ulster British. Plus, it would benefit building peace in the present. In an all-Ireland polity they would essentially have the autonomy of state within a Confederation of similar states. And retain the right to secession. An Ulster British Region could stay within the British system for example, one might join the all-Ireland polity. The all Ireland state might even have an enclave of territory in the British state, for example West Belfast could be an enclave (attached to an Irish East Ulster Regional government say) of the all-Ireland state should an Ulster British Belfast Region decide to remain in the British state. If some of the Irish in the Republic seek to build a Federal Republic then this movement of Irish people would be inevitably be taken up by some of the Irish in the six counties.

Using the Provinces as the second tier of government provides some benefits which the Regions wouldn't provide. The Provinces have at present at least some personality....history....role in sports, etc. If we start from Regions then we are mainly carving out areas on the map where we see have, at the least, the seeds of a common consciousness. Some of these Regions we draw out might even correspond to historical regions, for example like Thomond - a kingdom of Gaelic Ireland. That might be helpful for some of us Irish to see these new Regions having precedence in Gaelic Ireland, it would provide a more emotional connection for some, and emotion is what we need for people to get involved in this building of a self-governing Ireland of self-governing Regions.

I have to look back at some of your posts Young Ireland to find out again how many Regions would you propose again to be in a Federated Republic of Ireland?

Lately I've been thinking that a movement towards a federal Ireland.....would have to grow richer then just being federal, self-governing and free as I put it.........it would have to develop layers like......a federal, neutral, maritime Ireland, a literary nation, long freedom struggle, containing a historic Catholic community within it. Providing that richness/emotion I've been thinking is key to moving people towards building a Federal Ireland.

God bless

Just a few quick thoughts, apologies if some may have been already been mentioned previously in the thread.

It would be useful to plan your federal structures in such a way as to be able to accommodate the possibility of NI coming on board some day. I believe that it would be better to accept NI in its current formation, in its totality, rather than to look at any attempt to fragment it as a temporary measure to federalise parts of it (for example West Belfast Stormont election area is not wholly Nationalist /Republican /Catholic, it includes the loyalist Shankill Road - so you would have problems immediately).

I remember vaguely, it might have been Desmond Fennell's writings I have seen this in, that there was a minimum number of federal entities needed to make a federal solution workable - I think it was thought that four provinces would be too few to function effectively.

It might be an idea to keep an eye on politics in the USA and their recent election where Trump won on the Electoral College votes rather than the popular votes. Would the Electoral College system be useful in Ireland to ever so slightly tilt the balance away from the cities (Dublin in particular) to the less urban areas?

If there is any chance of NI becoming part of a federal Ireland most Northerners would want a free medical system (the NHS). They have grown so used to this that it is taken for granted and they wouldn't give it up (even though the NHS is beginning to creak badly as the pressure of an older and sicker population grows.

[Young Ireland]

Dec 10, 2016 22:35:51 GMT assisi said:

Dec 9, 2016 20:15:45 GMT irishconfederate said:

I think the Regions being the second tier of government could work and I would back the idea. For the reasons stated regarding the Ulster British, I do think that if the Regions were the second tier it might be helpful if the provinces had even some functioning political personality. That they had maybe assemblies for supra- regional planning, for things like infrastructure. They don't need to be a tier of government exactly. Not at first. Maybe down the line as you said. But it might be something to entice some of the Ulster British into the all-Ireland building venture.

If we worked for a present Northern Ireland federated into self-governing Irish and Ulster British Regions, then down the line joining an all-Ireland polity wouldn't feel that threatening to some of the Ulster British. Plus, it would benefit building peace in the present. In an all-Ireland polity they would essentially have the autonomy of state within a Confederation of similar states. And retain the right to secession. An Ulster British Region could stay within the British system for example, one might join the all-Ireland polity. The all Ireland state might even have an enclave of territory in the British state, for example West Belfast could be an enclave (attached to an Irish East Ulster Regional government say) of the all-Ireland state should an Ulster British Belfast Region decide to remain in the British state. If some of the Irish in the Republic seek to build a Federal Republic then this movement of Irish people would be inevitably be taken up by some of the Irish in the six counties.

Using the Provinces as the second tier of government provides some benefits which the Regions wouldn't provide. The Provinces have at present at least some personality....history....role in sports, etc. If we start from Regions then we are mainly carving out areas on the map where we see have, at the least, the seeds of a common consciousness. Some of these Regions we draw out might even correspond to historical regions, for example like Thomond - a kingdom of Gaelic Ireland. That might be helpful for some of us Irish to see these new Regions having precedence in Gaelic Ireland, it would provide a more emotional connection for some, and emotion is what we need for people to get involved in this building of a self-governing Ireland of self-governing Regions.

I have to look back at some of your posts Young Ireland to find out again how many Regions would you propose again to be in a Federated Republic of Ireland?

Lately I've been thinking that a movement towards a federal Ireland.....would have to grow richer then just being federal, self-governing and free as I put it.........it would have to develop layers like......a federal, neutral, maritime Ireland, a literary nation, long freedom struggle, containing a historic Catholic community within it. Providing that richness/emotion I've been thinking is key to moving people towards building a Federal Ireland.

God bless

Just a few quick thoughts, apologies if some may have been already been mentioned previously in the thread.

It would be useful to plan your federal structures in such a way as to be able to accommodate the possibility of NI coming on board some day. I believe that it would be better to accept NI in its current formation, in its totality, rather than to look at any attempt to fragment it as a temporary measure to federalise parts of it (for example West Belfast Stormont election area is not wholly Nationalist /Republican /Catholic, it includes the loyalist Shankill Road - so you would have problems immediately).

I remember vaguely, it might have been Desmond Fennell's writings I have seen this in, that there was a minimum number of federal entities needed to make a federal solution workable - I think it was thought that four provinces would be too few to function effectively.

It might be an idea to keep an eye on politics in the USA and their recent election where Trump won on the Electoral College votes rather than the popular votes. Would the Electoral College system be useful in Ireland to ever so slightly tilt the balance away from the cities (Dublin in particular) to the less urban areas?

If there is any chance of NI becoming part of a federal Ireland most Northerners would want a free medical system (the NHS). They have grown so used to this that it is taken for granted and they wouldn't give it up (even though the NHS is beginning to creak badly as the pressure of an older and sicker population grows.

I would agree with most of what Assisi writes. My own view is that the provinces could work in an all-island scenario, with Northern Ireland changing into Ulster and still sitting in Stormont, which would also provide a counterweight to Dublin. Your point about fragmentation is something I agree with: after all if nationalists have reconciled themselves to living under Stormont, even if they disagree with it in principle, surely it is reasonable that the Unionists (one would hope) would take a similar attitude to the South?

An Electoral College is something worth further examination, but I do think that unless the President's powers are enhanced significantly, I think that the Seanad provides the most scope for ensuring regional parity, like what is done in Germany. As for the healthcare system, that is an important point and is ultimately what will decide the North's destiny. I also think that the North should be autonomous in the area of education, justice and policing (and indeed I would reduce the remit of the Gardai to exclusively national matters (like all-island organised crime, etc.) and devolve community policing to the regions). As for healthcare, that would not really be an option if the North were to join, so either they would have to abandon free healthcare or the South would have to adopt it. Either way, there would be sweeping changes on at least one side of the border.

[maolsheachlann]

I have an article in the Burkean in which I argue that Irish nationalism should accommodate cultural, ethnic and civic nationalism-- but that the emphasis should be upon culture.

www.theburkean.ie/articles/2019/11/08/cultural-nationalism-and-ethnic-nationalism-a-plea-for-rapprochement