National Identity

[maolsheachlann]

I don't understand why you have to have one thing that's a binding factor. It's a potpourri. In fact, I used to be very hostile to multiculturalism, but I increasingly think some kind of multiculturalism is inevitable, and not to be feared. I used to be hostile to multiculturalism because I felt it led to a sameness internationally; but perhaps that doesn't have to be the case. Because no two countries would be the same in their ethnic and cultural and social make-up.

I do think the notion of a Gaelic Ireland, however imaginary that might be, should remain the core though.

The reason I'm not keen on a constitutional nationalism is because I tend to oppose 'gemeinschaft' to 'gesellshaft', and to be very much in favour of the latter. Culture and tradition and shared memory are, in my view, the deep and important aspects of a society; infrastucture and institutions are very much secondary. "Let me make the songs of a nation, and I care not who makes its laws". Obviously, it is not quite that simple.

So whether Ireland is a 'united States of Ireland' or not is rather irrelevant to me. If it leads to a flourishing of regional identities, sure, that can only be a good thing.

[irishconfederate]

We will always be a society no matter what.......but the question is how can that society be bound together and distinguished as a world people, and therefore be able to look after itself well in its relationships with other world peoples......how can most of the people be bound together by some values.......what are those Irish values that bind and distinguish most of us today?

There is a relationship between a people's binding and distinctive identity and its ability to look after itself, in its dealings with other peoples...................it is no coincidence that the last time we had some sort of binding and distinct identity it enabled the Irish to achieve a level of self-governance for most of its people, to usher in a whole wave of creativity, supported a whole missionary enterprise around the world.

Identity enables us to move in the world. An identity crisis paralyses, causes dependency, drift.

Gaelic Ireland could be the core but only if we expressed it in a way which bound us all together in our daily life and distinguished us in the world. As the Gaelic language isn't going to revive any time soon; Gaelic Ireland had a system of over a hundred Tuatha -like self-governing districts- it was multi-cultural, pluralistic, the provinces figured in its life...perhaps we could embed that Gaelic identity in our structures.

[pugio]

Perhaps there is a good case for radical political reform. Or perhaps not. But surely your proposals in this area should be based on what best suits the spirit and character of the people in question, not on abstract and technocratic principles which seek to re-found a nation that already exists according to their own likeness. Such a project, at least in present circumstances, would likely be far more dangerous to our nation than mere cultural inertia.

There have been many points in the past at which Irish prospects seemed a great deal dimmer than today. And as every student of Irish history knows, such periods were often followed by a resurgence of virile national spirit that would have seemed very unlikely a few years before.

We have achieved a great deal of political independence and, with it, the space to determine our own destiny to a degree that was scarcely possible before. We have achieved a certain level of material progress, our current indebtedness notwithstanding. We have almost recovered from the demographic catastrophe of the mid-19th century. And while, like much of the Occident, Ireland appears to be in a somewhat degenerate phase of her history, this makes it all the more important to hold fast to our ancestral inheritance.

[Young Ireland]

I don't often say this, but I agree with Pugio. We need to base any new identity on what came before. Funnily enough, what Irish Confederate is proposing does have a precedent in the Ard Ri's and the tuaithe in Celtic Ireland. Indeed, much of the nationalism takes from that of the French, with its strong central state (and the apparent belief that the "reactionary" country dwellers are not fir to run their own affairs), anti-clericalism (even if not to the same level) and of course the tricolour. There are some native elements to it and the influence is understandable (many Irish republicans modelled themselves on the French Revolution), but this shows that abstract and technocratic principles have been imposed on Ireland in the past (and arguably even today).

[maolsheachlann]

My problem with Irishconfederate's proposal is that I don't think the political and administrative system makes very deep inroads into a peoples' consciousness or soul. I often think there was more Irish national consciousness when we were a part of the British Empire than there is now. I wonder why public debate so often revolves around the state rather than social and cultural life.

I might be mistaken, of course.

[irishconfederate]

Such a vision of Ireland can make 'very deep inroads into a peoples' consciousness or soul'. It could do this by tapping into the idea that

We want to make Ireland now politically Gaelic.

Gaelic Ireland was a community of communities. The province had a political personality in Gaelic Ireland.the Gaelic system was one of 150 Tuatha, grouped in regions.

We could also draw to the fact that 'when anything like an assembly of the old Irish nation took place- at the Confederation of Kilkenny- a similar provincial government was put forward and partially implemented'.

And that 'a special reason we have for proposing the provincial system of government is that it gives major status in the new Ireland to that historic province on which the Ulster Protestants have based their local patriotism. They call themselves Ulstermen, and it is as Ulstermen, in the fullest political sense, that we invite them to play their part in the building of an Irish community of communities'.

That vision of providing a route for the Ulster British to join us as Ulstermen. Joining us Connachtmen, Leinstermen, Munstermen, is a vision of justice and peace and so well-being that I  think is beautiful.

As Catholics for a self-governing Ireland that enshrines the principle of subsidarity:

'If the Republic were a Catholic state.....It would be a radically non-conformist state- a revolutionary state. Anyone who doubts this need do  no more then read that papal letter I referred to, called Octogesima Adveniens. Paul Paul actually said "Use the Gospel's ideals to solve men's problems. Imagine! And he said the Christian "cannot adhere to the liberal ideology" or to the Marxist one either. .....If the Republic were a Catholic state..........Instead of being ruled almost absolutely by a central bureaucracy, it would have community self-government, in varying degrees, from the level of neighbourhood, parish and district up to region and province. Any group which could make a good case for civil institutions of their won - Irish-speakers, Protestants, Ballyfermot people, Jews, -would be given them. There would be a great degree of institutional -even legal-pluralism. The Unitarian state which we now have, and which the Dublin liberals wish to preserve, would be regarded as monstrous.'

Chesterton in the Napoleon of Notting Hill used his gifts to make a vision of local patriotism turning the world upside down.

It is up to us whatever our gifts - as local historians, painters, poets, playwrights, thinkers, politicians, clergy- to add to this great collaborative representation of the Ireland of our dreams so that it does reach into minds and heats and souls.

If we do that like we did the last time, we could turn the world upside down.

I don't think a "resurgence of virile national spirit" is inevitable. Ireland could drift as it did from its Gaelic collapse to the revolutionary period. The Irish nation might not assert herself but go like the natives did in America and be massified into some other nation. We could become Islamic in three centuries.

God forbid an Islamic Ireland would be Ireland's next "incarnation"; it's next world representation of itself. It could very well be the one after the collapse of our recent incarnation as Gaelic, Catholic and free which proceeded the one before of the Gaels.

Why not a remedial effort of a Federal Ireland cultivated as the vision of the Republic was?

[maolsheachlann]

I'm a localist so I'm not against this idea of a 'community of communities', or even (what I think is more interesting) the kind of corporatist suggestion you have there that different groups would have some kind of administrative structures of their own.

I just don't think that, on its own, it will lead to any kind of national resurgence. The Napoleon of Notting Hill is a great novel but it is, after all, a fantasy.

As for the Unionists, the various well-intentioned efforts to accomodate them through administrative structures always seem rather unrealistic to me. They want to be a part of the United Kingdom, they want to be British. They don't want anything to do with a united Ireland, no matter how it's carved up.

The last national resurgence we had, in the late nineteenth to early twentieth century, was based on a project of cultural revival, not an administrative model. I really feel that is what is needed again.

[pugio]

To be honest, Irishconfederate, I actually do find that idea somewhat attractive the more you elaborate. After all, Ireland does already have quite strong local identities, while the confusion between local and national priorities is a long-running problem in our political culture, one that might be resolved through stronger local government. What I was objecting to was the apparent suggestion that national government should abandon any attempt to foster a shared identity based on historical totems like ancestry, religion, language, myth and so on, and instead reduce nationality to citizenship.

In principle, I suppose it is true that some political institutions may become loci of national identity over a long period of time, particularly if they are consciously promoted in this way. However, while I understand now that yours is not quite a Jacobin vision, or a call for an American-style proposition nation, I doubt that radical devolution - in and of itself - can form the basis of national identity, however worthy an idea it may actually be.

[irishconfederate]

I believe radical devolution can form the basis of national identity if we make that identity a pearl of great price. 

We can do this if many of the talented and well educated throw their lot in with that identity and make it richer and more of a golden ideal. Poems, plays, flags, action, speeches, etc, directed at presenting and enriching the vision of a devolved Ireland. 

Someone can start a newspaper....Young Ireland has made maps....a friend put up a website for myself. A multi-collaborative effort is what is needed.

Conscious of us having no binding language or religion...........we can know that this is the only venture to embark on.

It could be only a temporary venture - for this century say- until, please God, Catholicism becomes binding again for most of the Irish, or, by a miracle, the Gaelic language does.

But if we embark on it, and add to it, enrich it, then it could be picked up by talented persons in the future, and worked on too.

We know that this is not as energising an identity as Gaelic, Catholic and free. But, meanwhile, isn't it prudent -and indeed charitable- to try to present something that could bind Catholics and non-Catholics together and distinguish them in the world.

I'm writing again on this thread because we the onus is on us to do something

[irishconfederate]

The last national resurgence we had, in the late nineteenth to early twentieth century, was based on a project of cultural revival, not an administrative model. I really feel that is what is needed again.

I agree maolsheachlann. But I think a cultural revival  is there in the vision of a devolved Ireland. For example, I remember when I lived in a community of Dublin. It had a train station..... the community had no emblem for it.....that could be designed drawing on the area's history, its folklore....that emblem could be beside its name on the train station platform. It could be on the street furniture. The local green had no name. It could be given a name....a local hero, the priest who was ageing and who was appreciated by most of the people. The local football team played on a pitch that had no name. It could be called after the hero of the Irish revolution that was buried near by.

There was no real form of community given to the planning of this area. A café could be set up, providing a space for people to encounter one another.

A noticeboard could be set up providing a brief history off the area. The history could be taught in the local school.

All this work would be increasing the attributes of community. It would make people happier. It would also move the community towards winning more power for itself.

The community could elect a mayor. People could get involved in its resident's associations. A newspaper could be started for the vicinity.

Key rings and t-shirts could be made saying tongue in cheek "For a independent Marino" or "for an independent Raheny"..

Local meetings could be held and a march in O'Connell St or a sit-in in the Corporation head offices......demonstrating for the community to be given the responsibility over its own life it deserves. Concessions would be made. Ground gain. This in turn would inspire other communities to do the same. Regional dialects of Irish would become prominent, and other local treasures as talismans for that community.

Local history societies would provide material to bolster the self-respect of each community.

A Business association would set up projects to tackle the employment in their community by developing local businesses.

Writers would be inspired by all this and produce stories, painting this project as venture, on the vanguard of a new age. It would start to become a pearl of great price.

A play is written, pointing to the distinctiveness of a particular area, and revealing the wonder in it.

Someone writes a song........

I think all this is possible and once more everybody, no matter what their talent, could make their contribution, for even a small smile or a kind word to ones neighbour actually builds local community, actually builds in small way.....a flourishing Ireland of flourishing communities, families and persons

[Young Ireland]

Very interesting ideas, Irish Confederate. I think that outside Leinster House would be a more suitable place for such a demonstration, since the county councils are effectively powerless and can't devolve their power even if they wanted to. It might be no harm to draw up a couple of policy documents on various areas of government to demonstrate how devolution could be accomplished in practice (one big claim that we will face is that we care exclusively about the local and want a hospital in every village; such documents would go a good way towards refuting this). I can help with this if you like. Another idea might be to set up a new forum where Irish localists, federalists and devolutionists can discuss among themselves how to advance the cause. I have experience with this as well, so I can help to get it off the ground if you like. One issue that would certainly be worth focusing on is the future of rural post offices: this is a big issue in rural areas and one in which I think that we can get involved in. Another is the abolition of the county manager-executive system, and its replacement by a directly elected mayor or a cathaoirleach elected from the councils who would have a cabinet: like the Dail on a smaller scale. Getting involved in areas that people care about will be a great help of making devolutionism relevant. You need only look at Britain, where power is being devolved left right and centre, and not just to Scotland, Wales and the North either.

[maolsheachlann]

I very much like all these ideas, and indeed I have always wanted to see something like this. I write an article about G.K. Chesterton every week for a magazine in Kildare, and it gives me especial pleasure that it's a local magazine, for local people. I'm completely onboard with the idea of localism.

I wonder about the feasability, though-- especially since so many people commute long distances, live in dormitory neighbourhoods, are increasingly dispersed in their family and friends groups, and communicate via Skype and the like. But maybe that's all the more reason to promote this idea-- as a kind of counterbalance.

I remember when I was about fifteen having a vision of my local area having its own festival, flag and so forth, which was so vivid that it was actually painful. I reluctantly came to the conclusion that it was impossible because of television, I remember.

I worry a great deal myself about globalization, loss of national and regional character, and deracination. (That means 'uprooting', in case any lurker out there thinks I'm making a racist point!) I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the revival of the Irish language is the only way we can preserve and revive our national identity. irishconfederate describes the language revival as requiring a miracle. I can't disagree with him, and I'm terrible at Irish-- to the extent that I couldn't write a grammatical sentence in Irish-- but I'm reading intensively in Irish right now in the hope of getting better. That is my contribution to national revival. Here is a post I wrote about it on my blog.

One of the books I read as part of this effort was a book about Joe Heaney, the sean-nós singer. From a localist perspective, it's interesting, because he came from an area called Carna which has a very unique storytelling and singing tradition, which he saw himself as helping to keep alive. (Please, don't any pedants tell me something can't be 'very unique'. I use the phrase deliberately.)

By the way, I want to say that I don't agree with the possible objection to irisconfederate's proposal (which nobody has made but which is sometimes made) that traditions can't just be 'invented' out of thin air. I see no reason why they can't. Indeed, cultural Marxists often satirise traditions for being invented-- 'ploughman's lunch' sandwiches, tartan, etc. It's better to draw on existing traditions, but where they are absent, I am all in favour of making new ones.

[maolsheachlann]

As for Catholicism being a national unifying factor-- of course I want to see that, and to be honest I have little interest in an Irish national identity that is not rooted in Catholicism.

But it's a tricky subject because I never want to be seen as promoting Catholicism as part of an ethnic or national heritage. The only motive to practice a religion is because you believe it's true.

[irishconfederate]

Was great to read the posts......

We need to get a broad movement of people seeking to build the flourishing devolved Ireland. That social dynamic, if we could bring it about, would be the 'Nation Once Again' in the making. By the very force of its arguments, example, by its sincere and obvious love of people and their welfare, it could gradually draw all Ireland into the work of building a flourishing Irish community of communities, families and persons.

That basis for our building of a flourishing Ireland already exists in local community efforts.

I think a forum would be great. But it would be helpful if it was promoted by means of a few adverts, say in the Catholic Voice.

If Young Ireland you had an idea for what the advert would look like ( I've got some quotes from McCarthy's Distasteful Challenge, Barrington's From Big Government to Small Government, Fennell's pieces...that could be helpful for such an advert) I would be happy to pay for the adverts.

(we could even perhaps promote irishcatholics.proboards on the advert as well, in a subscript that says that the initiative for the new forum came from a discussion on  irishcatholics.proboards...........I don't know.......just thought it could do two birds with one stone.....encourage Catholics to use irishcatholic.proboards too)

maolsheachlann and Young Ireland...again...great to read your posts

[irishconfederate]

The Federation of Local History Societies in Ireland would be a good place to advertise, so too the national association for residents associations (I saw their publication once in a library)