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Post by maolsheachlann on Nov 26, 2023 14:07:13 GMT
This is getting unnecessarily heated. We agree the riots were indefensible. I also agree fully with Catholic teaching on immigration. I don't believe in "Ireland for the Irish", though I think it would be preferable to retain our culture and distinctiveness, for the sake of the world as well as Ireland.
But I'm antagonised by the snobbery, elitism, and blindness of the reaction. We see the genuinely disenfranchised taking a stand, albeit a very misguided one. I think the contempt is contemptible.
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Post by Beinidict Ó Niaidh on Nov 28, 2023 14:38:29 GMT
I think there are wrongs on many sides here, without creating a moral equivalence.
1. The spark event, the stabbing of five people by a man previously cautioned by Gardaí for possession of knives, was apalling;
2. The riots, which effected a lot more people and properties, was totally disproportionate;
3. The sneering attitude of the establishment is dreadful though not in the same league. To some degree, I think they got their justification in the riots;
4. The losers are those individuals and communities affected by the ill thought out immigration policies, who were benefiting from some kind of pushback before this; and
5. It's interesting to see if the gradual shift to the right on immigration policy throughout Europe will have any effect here.
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Post by Beinidict Ó Niaidh on Nov 28, 2023 14:54:30 GMT
I think there are wrongs on many sides here, without creating a moral equivalence.
1. The spark event, the stabbing of five people by a man previously cautioned by Gardaí for possession of knives, was apalling;
2. The riots, which effected a lot more people and properties, was totally disproportionate;
3. The sneering attitude of the establishment is dreadful though not in the same league. To some degree, I think they got their justification in the riots;
4. The losers are those individuals and communities affected by the ill thought out immigration policies, who were benefiting from some kind of pushback before this; and
5. It's interesting to see if the gradual shift to the right on immigration policy throughout Europe will have any effect here.
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Post by Askel McThurkill on Dec 1, 2023 17:29:41 GMT
Re: the attack and the following riots under discussion. I think this is something that the establishment are looking for a scapegoat to attack. Whether it's Gript.ie or whatever else, but this takes place in a context. And there are issues to address.
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Post by hibernicus on Dec 2, 2023 0:46:44 GMT
The basic problem is that the establishment here (and across the Western world) really believe in open borders in principle (from a mixture of legitimate humanitarianism and a desire for cheap labour) without being willing to admit this because it's so unpopular, or to discuss how/to what extent it can be made to work out in practice. Some of the right-wing commentary from abroad has been quite ridiculous, such as denying that there is a far right in Ireland at all, or Rod Dreher (whom I take an interest in because of his comments on clerical abuse and on Louisiana, but who has been expressing some odd positions lately) hailing Conor McGregor as a virtuous citizen persecuted by the establishment for telling the truth. europeanconservative.com/articles/commentary/silencing-the-irish-to-save-them-from-themselves/
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Post by hibernicus on Dec 2, 2023 0:59:55 GMT
This expose by Jonathan van Maren and a collaborator of how the pimp Andrew Tate groomed vulnerable young women online while allowing paying guests to observe the process so they could learn how to go and do likewise is horrific on at least two levels: (1) The process itself, with its contempt and misanthropy (2) The willingness of certain conservatives (see the article for details) to buy into Tate's shtick that he is being persecuted because of his "traditional" views. Pimps have traditionally been despised even by those creeps who use their services, and Tate is a striking example of why this is the case. "Owning the libs" without examining what's actually at stake can lead to some horrific places. europeanconservative.com/articles/essay/inside-andrew-tates-war-room/
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Post by assisi on Dec 2, 2023 15:10:17 GMT
The basic problem is that the establishment here (and across the Western world) really believe in open borders in principle (from a mixture of legitimate humanitarianism and a desire for cheap labour) without being willing to admit this because it's so unpopular, or to discuss how/to what extent it can be made to work out in practice. Some of the right-wing commentary from abroad has been quite ridiculous, such as denying that there is a far right in Ireland at all, or Rod Dreher (whom I take an interest in because of his comments on clerical abuse and on Louisiana, but who has been expressing some odd positions lately) hailing Conor McGregor as a virtuous citizen persecuted by the establishment for telling the truth. europeanconservative.com/articles/commentary/silencing-the-irish-to-save-them-from-themselves/I see no 'legitimate humanitarianism' in the open borders elite. I see ideology (liberal Utopian Globalists) and virtue signalling and hatred of their own countries.
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Post by maolsheachlann on Dec 3, 2023 12:08:20 GMT
The basic problem is that the establishment here (and across the Western world) really believe in open borders in principle (from a mixture of legitimate humanitarianism and a desire for cheap labour) without being willing to admit this because it's so unpopular, or to discuss how/to what extent it can be made to work out in practice. Some of the right-wing commentary from abroad has been quite ridiculous, such as denying that there is a far right in Ireland at all, or Rod Dreher (whom I take an interest in because of his comments on clerical abuse and on Louisiana, but who has been expressing some odd positions lately) hailing Conor McGregor as a virtuous citizen persecuted by the establishment for telling the truth. europeanconservative.com/articles/commentary/silencing-the-irish-to-save-them-from-themselves/I see no 'legitimate humanitarianism' in the open borders elite. I see ideology (liberal Utopian Globalists) and virtue signalling and hatred of their own countries. Indeed. Hard to see the humanitarianism when so many people are homeless and emigrating.
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Post by hibernicus on Dec 4, 2023 19:55:27 GMT
I think the responses to my comment are a bit oversimple. "Genuine" as I used the phrase covers two points: (1) Sincerity - I would say for example that George Soros is not simply a self-serving manipulator as he is often portrayed, but that he really believes he is a benefactor who is working for the good of humanity. He is also tremendously arrogant in believing that he knows what is good for people better than anyone else, but that's another matter. (2) There is a prima facie case for the view - in that large numbers of immigrants have left situations of actual persecution or appalling poverty in search of a better life as many Irish people did in the past (I have met quite a few immigrants who were honest and hardworking, as well as some who weren't), and that the war and poverty often derive from international policies in which we are complicit (e.g. our economy depends on free movement of capital, which implicitly requires free movement of labour; the EU subsidises certain products and "dumps" them in poorer countries at prices which local producers can't match; some very nasty regimes are in power because they uphold Western interests, ours included). BTW from what I have heard the new Irish Booker-winning novel PROPHET SONGS seems to be a fine example of muddled thinking on this issue. It is set in a near-future Ireland and the central character is a woman who becomes an asylum-seeker in Canada after her husband is "disappeared" by the regime and she is separated from her children by a civil war which appears to be modelled on that which has taken place in Syria over the last decade. I may have to revise my opinion when/if I get round to reading it, but to judge from the current discussion it is falling between two stools: (1) The Irish setting is meant to convey the idea that "it might happen here". This would suggest that a good deal of attention should be given to HOW it might happen here, but this is left vague. (It is also noteworthy that the regime is described as far-right though this tendency has negligible organised support. This might have been got over, for example, by an "alternate history" approach, a parallel Ireland where certain events turned out differently allowing some form of fascism to develop, or by having a far left or Sinn Fein dictatorship as these tendencies have some political success.) It is also the case that a society which has lived under a dictatorship for decades (a la Syria) will be somewhat different from a society which has recently deteriorated into a dictatorship (as in this fictional Ireland). (2) This brings us to the second point. The Irish setting is meant to produce "unconditional empathy" with refugees (hence the choice of an Irish setting rather than a generic Everycountry)- the trouble is that it does this by implying everyone is exactly the same as the (Southern) Irish, when even a comparison with Northern Ireland would call this into question. Our heroine/victim is unambiguously innocent, a democrat whose husband has been "disappeared" for engaging in peaceful protest against a tyranny. Let us suppose instead that he was an armed opponent of the regime (which could be perfectly justifiable given its description, but would muddy the waters). Or what if our refugee is a member of an ethnic group which for their own reasons mostly support the regime and believe they will be massacred if it falls? The author's version of empathy seems only to operate if the people empathised with are assumed to be just like middle-class Dubliners! If you empathise with people you must empathise with them as they are, not as you would like them to be, or you're not really empathising with them at all. Remember the soldiers in FULL METAL JACKET who justify the Vietnam war by claiming "Inside every [racist term for Vietnamese] there's an American trying to get out - we're just helping him".
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Post by maolsheachlann on Dec 5, 2023 14:17:14 GMT
large numbers of immigrants have left situations of actual persecution or appalling poverty in search of a better life as many Irish people did in the past... How large a number would you say? I have met and spoken to a lot of immigrants, as I'm sure we all have. All lovely people, hard-working, law-abiding etc., but very seldom have I received the impression that they were fleeing persecution, or hardship similar to that faced by the Irish in the nineteenth century. They were moving here either for better opportunities or just a change of life. No blame to them at all, but the cumulative impact of so many is what we are concerned with. David Quinn claimed in a recent interview, and I've just seen that it's backed by CSO figures, that the Republic's population has grown by ten per cent in ten years. It's hard to see how such a change can't have serious social consequences, especially when the Irish people seem ambivalent about it at best.
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Post by hibernicus on Dec 15, 2023 21:57:56 GMT
I've heard academics remarking that the size of the demographic change in terms of the percentage of foreign-born inhabitants is such that it is remarkable how little trouble there has been over it. They think it shows national maturity - I suspect it shows our provincialism and conformity, whereby we copy other people without learning anything from their experience. My argument takes it for granted that most immmigrants were economic migrants, as most Irish emigrants were. When I saw a Polish pilgrimage at Knock it was very reminiscent of the 50s Irish in Britain. www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fh0F41AvO_Q
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Post by hibernicus on Dec 18, 2023 22:36:02 GMT
We may have cut out of our constitution the protection of unborn mere humans, and be well on the way to abolishing legal recognition of marriage and the family, but never fear - a new constitutional amendment is being proposed to guarantee the rights of nature and biodiversity. Sounds like the lawyers and the dark greens will have a jamboree. Does anyone remember the old cartoon with a seal holding a sign, SAVE THE BABY HUMANS? www.nationalreview.com/corner/animism-watch-ireland/
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Post by hibernicus on Feb 1, 2024 1:17:59 GMT
Here is the Wikipedia entry on this year's Irish Eurosong representative, who practices witchcraft and models their appearance on Marilyn Manson. As someone said to me, it's a long way from Dana and "All Kinds of Everything". en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bambie_Thug
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Post by Beinidict Ó Niaidh on Feb 1, 2024 12:56:10 GMT
Here is the Wikipedia entry on this year's Irish Eurosong representative, who practices witchcraft and models their appearance on Marilyn Manson. As someone said to me, it's a long way from Dana and "All Kinds of Everything". en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bambie_ThugYes - a very long way from All Kinds of Everything.
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Post by hibernicus on Feb 7, 2024 23:35:31 GMT
The former Conservative MP and political commentator Matthew Paris recently published an article in the SPECTATOR not merely advocating the legalisation of euthanasia, but declaring that it will indeed lead to the sick and elderly experiencing pressure to have themselves killed to save money - Mr Paris thinks this would be a good thing. For good measure, he adds that opponents of legalisation are secretly inspired by belief in God, whom he apparently considers to be a disreputable foreign homophobe who should have no influence on British public policy. A fine illustration of the saying "Better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a pig satisfied". www.conservativewoman.co.uk/yes-death-is-inevitable-but-killing-to-save-money-is-not/
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