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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Aug 25, 2014 12:28:28 GMT
My idea in this thread is to contextualise the position of the Church geographically. For example, the most common spoken languages in the world are Chinese, English, Hindi and Spanish (I believe in that order). But if one were to list the most common spoken Catholic languages, the list would probably read Spanish, Portuguese, English, French, Italian, German and Polish or something like that. Different countries have different diocesan patterns, different regional takes on Catholicism, diffent cultures (Wallonia and Flanders) and other quirky factors (Ireland isn't unique in being unique). Why does Poland have no great tradition of lighting candles at church shrines or Spain have no tradition of Friday penance, for example. We talk a lot of the crisis, which occurs everywhere, but at different paces and in different ways. Of course there are historical factors, and accidents. But let's look principally at the geographical factors.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Aug 25, 2014 14:35:22 GMT
Some people might expect me to begin with Germany, so I will do this.
Germany has a population of slightly over 80 million. Approximately 24.5 million are Catholic (this includes around 15,000 Old Catholics and about 6,000 Maronites; the former are not Church members, but it only has a marginal bearing on the overall statistic); about 23.9 million are members of the Evangelical Church of Germany, which is Lutheran principally; there are over 2 million Germans of other protestant denominations, giving 26 million German Protestants; 1.5 million Orthodox; 200,000 Jews; 3.6 million Moslems (mainly Sunni, but with a high number of Alevi Moslems), which is not as high as many scare stories indicate); though I haven't found figures for the number of German atheists and non-religious (it's hard to find specifics), they make up around 30% of the population, which is less than either the Catholic or Evangelical numbers.
Germany has 27 dioceses and a military ordinariate and provision for a small number of eastern rite Catholics. Ireland has 26 dioceses for around 4 million Catholics which is about a sixth of the German figure. However, this is not to suggest that the number of dioceses in Ireland should be reduced to 4 or 5; Germany has a particularly high ratio between bishop and Catholic. Due to the Kirchesteur, the arrangement whereby Germans direct a proportion of their taxes to their churches, the German Catholic Church is one of the richest national churches in the world; only the Catholic Church in the United States has more funds at its disposal. The Kirchesteur is also a reason for a high (and well publicised) rate of defection from the Church. About 4 to 5 million German Catholics attend Mass every Sunday. The Evangelical Church has a higher rate of defection and about one million German Protestants attend church services on any given Sunday.
German Catholics are concentrated in the south and west. Bavaria and Saar are prdominantly Catholic; Baden-Würtemburg, Rhineland-Palatinate and North-Rhine Westphalia have more Catholics than other denominations; Hesse has a sizeable Catholic minority, but there are more Protestants here. There are Catholic enclaves in the north and east. The public face of Catholicism involves a lot festivals, processions and other externals. An interesting survival from the Peace of Westphalia applies in Bavaria. Bavarian districts with a Catholic majority keep the feast of the Assumption as a public holiday; those with a Protestant majority don't. This year six districts kept 15 August as a holiday for the first time as census returns indicated that they now had a Catholic majority. In Bavaria in general, the Epiphany, Easter Monday, Pentecost Monday, Corpus Christi (on its traditional Thursday), the Assumption and All Saints Day are public holidays, as are Christmas Day and St Stephen's Day. The 1 May is also a holiday, but this is observed as Mary, Mother of God in Bavaria. The only purely secular holiday there is German Unification Day. Other German Länder have different holidays, for example Protestant Länder keep 31 October as Reformation Day (the day Luther nailed the 95 Theses to the door of Wittenberg Cathedral).
In general, Rhineland Catholicism is seen as highly intellectual, with examples such as Cardinal von Galen in the past century, with Bavarian Catholicism seen as been more populist and devotional. Pope Benedict XVI is an example of a Bavarian intellectual, but there are many more. The leadership of the German Church has been theologically liberal, but the practice of liturgy in Germany lacks many of the innovations which characterise the United States and other English-speaking churches. If most Catholics in Germany are German natives, there are high numbers of immigrants from Catholic countries overseas such as Spain, Italy, Poland and the Philipines. There is even an Irish Catholic community in Munich.
The strength of the traditional movement in Germany is perhaps seen in two seminaries, that of the Priestly Fraternity of St Peter in Wigratzbad (Augsburg Diocese) and that of the Society of St Pius X in Zaidskopfen (Regensburg and of course illicit). The Institute of St Philip Neri is a small German traditional group and the Abbey of Mariawald is a Cistercian monastery of strict observance using the older liturgical books (both with permission). There are a number of highly conservative groups operating in the German speaking world often listed as traditional but which do not exclusively use the traditional books. The neo-Ignatian Servi Jesu et Maria and the Order of the Cross (Opus Angelorum) come to mind. Both are based in Austria with a largely German membership. Marian devotion is also strong in Germany, with several centres the most notable of which is Altötting in Bavaria (Passau diocese) which is very close to the Pope Emeritus' birthplace in Marktl.
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Post by hibernicus on Oct 24, 2014 21:26:47 GMT
One sad little point that I have seen a couple of commenters make about the recent attacks by Islamists in Canada is that both attackers were converts to Islam from Quebecois/French-Canadian backgrounds. The suggestion has been made on some sites that they could be seen as reflecting the cultural upheaval caused by the precipitate decline of Quebecois Catholicism. (One quote I've seen tossed around is that "the only organisation that has lost power since the 1960s more precipitately than the Catholic Church in Quebec is the Communist Party of the Soviet Union"). I've seen a preview of the latest BRANDSMA REVIEW which has an article on the current highly secularised state of Belgium. This might be seen as in many respects a warning for Ireland, because for most of the C19 and early C200 Belgium was regularly cited along with Ireland as exemplifying how it was possible to reconcile Catholicism and liberalism/democracy. (The 1830 Belgian revolution against Dutch rule was brought about by an alliance of Catholics and liberals.) The Catholic University of Louvain, whose ongoing secularisation is mentioned in the article, was the model which Newman tried to follow in establishing a Catholic University in Dublin.
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Post by hibernicus on Nov 14, 2014 19:52:10 GMT
One wider point that might be made about this is that Catholicism in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries was often associated with various provincial, regional and minor-national identities in opposition to a Protestant or more secularised national centre. (Examples would be Fleming v. Walloon, Quebec v. Anglophone Canada, various ethnic identities in the US versus the Wasps, Bavaria v. North Germany etc, Basques and Catalans v. Castile - here the Franco dictatorship, with its combination of National-Catholic identity and Castilian centralisation, was a complicating factor but I remember seeing a film about the activities of the Basque terrorist group ETA in the early 70s and some of its features - including the involvement of some junior clergy - were very like PIRA of the same period). As these cultures-outgroups become more economically advanced there is a tendency to associate Catholicism with past backwardness and see it as something to be shaken off; it is not necessarily replaced by assimilation to the previously dominant group, it can be replaced by a secularised nationalism. The way in which modern Quebec nationalism grew out of the Quiet Revolution, which to a considerable extent was driven by a sense that the Church's role in Quebec society, especially in education etc, was responsible for Francophone provincialism and economic backwardness, seems to resemble developments in Ireland since the Sixties more and more the way I look at it. Any thoughts?
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Post by hibernicus on Nov 16, 2014 19:20:38 GMT
A couple of posts from Rod Dreher's blog about the decline of Catholicism and growth in Protestantism in Latin America. (Bear in mind that Dreher is Orthodox, not Catholic, and is writing for a secular publication.) Nevertheless, the sheer scale of the change is startling and highly relevant to the theme of the thread. Some suggestions: (1) LAtin America is historically under-evangelised; there have NEVER been enough priests. (2) Many Protestant converts say they converted because the evangelicals/pentecostals offered a personal relationship with God in a way Catholicism didn't seem to. "Left" comments on this argue this is because of the church's traditional alliance with the elites, "Right" commentators argue that it was because liberation theology was more about politics than religion, and because of attacks on traditional devotions. (I suspect there is some truth in all of this.) Anyone else got more thoughts on Latin America? www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/the-un-evangelized-continent-latin-america-christianity/www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/protestant-catholic-in-latin-america/
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Nov 18, 2014 9:31:43 GMT
The largest Catholic populations in the world go in an order something like this: Brazil, Mexico, the Philippines, Italy and the United States. In terms of wealth, the US is first, followed by Germany. In terms of missionary output, the Netherlands was once the highest in absolute terms followed by Ireland; Malta was the highest proportionally, also followed by Ireland. This last probably hasn't applied for sometime. I remember a conversation between a couple of figures in national Latin Mass associations when one pointed out that no international organisation would have any credibility, unless it had strong representation in each of the big five.
If we think globally in terms of the church, we have to think that last way. I know Ranger is right about skin deep Catholicism and what's true of Latin America is certainly true of Mediterranean Europe, Ireland, Quebec and parts of eastern Europe. Resistance to oppression does count for something, including here, but that will fade away over time. I would see the Philippines as essentially following a Latin American model, but am open to correction.
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Post by Ranger on Nov 18, 2014 15:59:52 GMT
I've been told by Irish people who've worked as missionaries in the Philippines that it's similar to Ireland: it has a huge international reputation for being Catholic, and is culturally overwhelmingly Catholic, but a lot of it doesn't go beyond the culture. There's still a lot of genuine faith and a lot of practice, but I think it might be compared to Ireland in the eighties: strong on the surface but internally weak. Again, that's just anecdotal and might only refer to the large cities where these people worked.
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Post by hibernicus on Nov 18, 2014 20:50:16 GMT
How does the Philippines compare for vocations? That's one of the big differences between the "traditional" Irish model and the Latin American one. Another interesting piece on the Church in Latin America from the CATHOLIC HERALD: www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2014/11/18/what-is-wrong-with-the-church-in-latin-america/EXTRACTS The first major challenge is social dislocation. Throughout the Americas people are migrating to large cities. This means that places like Buenos Aires are experiencing a huge influx of people from the countryside, and from other countries too. The same is even more true of the megalopolis that is Sao Paulo which is home to virtually every nation under the sun. Also to be considered as Latin American megacities are Los Angeles, Chicago and New York, which are homes to thousands upon thousands who have migrated north. When people leave their villages in this manner, they also, sadly, often leave behind their religious practices. Devout Catholics on arrival in the big city, an alien and new community for them, may stop going to Church, or may meet up with a welcoming new church that rapidly gains their support. Incidentally, this is also true of Britain: many Catholics from abroad may come to London and switch religious allegiances in the process, or lose religious allegiances altogether. [THIS WAS ALREADY NOTED IN THE NINETEENTH CENTURY - FOR EXAMPLE, OF BRETONS IN PARIS. BEAR IN MIND ALSO THAT FOLK RELIGION IS OFTEN STRONGLY BOUND UP WITH LOCAL CUSTOMS AND SHRINES, MORE THAN WITH "HIGH" RELIGIOUS DOCTRINE/LITURGY - HIB] In a place like Sao Paulo it may be hard for the Church to organise, especially in new barrios that seemingly spring up overnight. This is one of the reasons that Pope Francis was so keen when Archbishop of Buenos Aires to move out to the “periphery”, in other words, to establish parishes in new areas of habitation, at the expense, if need be, of established parishes in places where the mass of the population no longer lived...[AS ALASDAIR POINTS OUT - HIB] But the problems of Latin America go further. Amongst the population there is huge ignorance of the faith, and this means that people are often attracted by Pentecostalism simply because their traditional allegiance to Catholicism has been hollowed out. This ignorance is not helped by the fact that so many, living in remote districts, have received little effective catechesis. Once again, this problem also exists in Britain where ignorance of the faith among Catholics is gross, and where there is little excuse for it, as we do not have the historical difficulties of Catholicism in countries like, for example, Peru. Then there is another matter, that the article in this paper highlights, the question of the ‘prosperity gospel’. This is not simply a question of pastors from American mega-churches telling people that Jesus will make them rich. If only it were so crude, and so easy to refute! It goes deeper than that, as I am sadly reminded every time I meet some of my Chilean Protestant relatives who always keen to point out that in Chile the Catholic Church was the Church of the rich elite, and never lifted a finger for the poor masses, but told them that poverty was good for them. This deeply offensive caricature is still believed by many people, partly because it has some truth in it. Liberation Theology was an attempt to redress the balance and answer the question of poverty. Though the question it was answering was the right question, the answer it was giving was not the right answer. But the question remains. What are we going to do about the single biggest challenge Latin Americans face, namely poverty? Likewise the “prosperity gospel” is not the right answer, but the question remains. The Church is strongly committed to good governance for all people. It is not, as far as I am aware, in bed with any corrupt or dictatorial regimes. Yet when it comes to delivery of good governance, Catholic-majority countries are not doing too well. This is true in Africa, but it is glaringly obvious in Latin America. This is perhaps the foundational reason for the loss of allegiance in these countries: despair brought about by poverty, and despair confirmed by governments’ complete failure to govern well and provide for their people... END OF EXTRACTS
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Nov 24, 2014 9:26:27 GMT
Just reflecting on my last post, as the Rhineland/Westphalia may be seen as part of a community with the southern Netherlands, Flanders and Luxembourg, so can Bavaria, Austria, German-speaking Switzerland and South Tyrol fall together. I imagine Catholic Switzerland would make a fascinating study.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Nov 30, 2014 20:16:57 GMT
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Post by hibernicus on Dec 16, 2014 1:07:34 GMT
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Post by hibernicus on Jan 11, 2015 0:39:21 GMT
This piece from the CATHOLIC HERALD suggests that the Philippines is starting to experience the same phenomenon that has been going on in Latin America in recent decades - an overstretched Catholic Church with insufficient priests and other personnel being challenged by an evangelical/pentecostal movement preaching personal transformation. The conversion of the boxer Manny Pacquiao is news to me - I remember him being described as making a high-profile profession of Catholicism, which it seems from this piece he combined with womanising and other vices. His attributing his personal transformation to his turn to Protestantism is very characteristic of the Latin American situation, where Protestantism is often seen as improving women's situation, albeit in a way feminists don't like, because it preaches the replacement of traditional male machismo with a patriarchal code of family values based on parental responsibility. I might note that there were traces of this in old-style Irish and Northern European Catholicism, at least in its more puritanical varieties, and this was a significant element in the Church's appeal to sections of the working class. www.catholicherald.co.uk/issues/january-9th-2015/catholicism-on-the-ropes-in-the-philippines/
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Post by hibernicus on Apr 28, 2015 21:21:10 GMT
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Apr 30, 2015 7:46:24 GMT
Very interesting to see Dr Shaw's point about modern European languages being the language of modern colonialism. This is as true in Europe too, given the amount of lesser used languages there are on the continent. The virtue of Latin is that it became culturally neutral.
But with regard to Africa, the late Mgr Serge Keleher frequently made a point about evangelising African Americans who were disaffected by the Churches: they usually responded very well to the Ethiopian Coptic liturgy. I haven't witnessed it, but whereas Mgr Keleher had no affection for the Egyptian Coptic liturgy, he could spend hours at the Ethiopian equivalent and not notice the time pass.
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Post by hibernicus on May 2, 2015 22:09:30 GMT
What is the difference between Egyptian and Ethiopian non-Chalcedonian liturgies, other than language? Part of the African American response might be to the fact that the Ethiopian Church is clearly an ancient and historic African church which doesn't have a record of subordination to white authorities. BTW when Haile Selassie visited Jamaica in the early 1960s and was surprised to encounter crowds of Rastafarians hailing him as God, he sent Ethiopian Orthodox missionaries to Jamaica with instructions to say that Ras Tafari sent them. (Ras Tafari was his original name, Haile Selassie was his regnal name.) Apparently the missionaries were quite successful, but I wonder how well the mission has lasted and whether it has taken on local Jamaican traits or remained an Ethiopian transplant.
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