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Post by hibernicus on Feb 12, 2013 1:02:10 GMT
The IRISH TIMES editorial of course emphasises this reflects a big change in attitudes since the late 90s, and urges the government to proceed with its plans, on the basis that 'twere well it were done quickly: www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x0T_1tLpi4
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Post by hibernicus on Feb 14, 2013 23:37:54 GMT
I agree with Young Ireland. Jim Dowson's UK Life League is a very problematic organisation indeed. The most charitable supposition is that its use of shock tactics is intended to relieve its members' anger and frustration at the continuing abortion Gehenna, the least charitable is that it poses as the purest of the pure so it can attract subscribers for the benefit of Mr Dowson. I find it utterly impossible to take seriously as a pro-lifer someone who worked with the BNP. The fact that he subsequently fell out with them doesn't alter the fact that anyone who signs up with the BNP should know exactly what they are - neo-nazis, and that anyone associated with them is a gift to the pro-aborts who do their best to equate the pro-life cause with fascism. The best service Mr Dowson can perform to the pro-life movement would be to shut up and go away. We need an Irish version of the UK Life League like we need an abortion clinic; it will play into the pro-aborts' hands. BTW I see Mr Grace is now reproducing Bishop Williamson's weekly messages on his wretched blog, complete with holocaust denial.
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Post by hibernicus on Feb 14, 2013 23:39:29 GMT
Secondly, I also agree that talk about the "pro-life majority" is counter-productive and breeds complacency. The poll probably understates pro-life support, but the pro-aborts dominate the media and are able to set the terms for debate. We need to counter this.
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Post by maolsheachlann on Feb 15, 2013 17:01:58 GMT
Every time I've heard pro-life people arguing that "the people don't want this", I've felt that it's a bad tactic. I'm not complaining about any pro-life people because they have done the hard work and I've done nothing but go on a few marches and so forth. But surely the point of democratic debate is not to argue over who has the majority, but who deserves the majority-- who is right. That is, democracy is not just a mechanism for deciding issues, but a forum for arguing them.
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Post by hibernicus on Feb 15, 2013 22:13:37 GMT
I agree, Maolsechlann. I think it reflects a wider problem in Irish society - we are too tribal and eager to conform, and too little inclined to take a reasoned position. I suspect this partly reflects the fact that we live in a state created by a nationalist movement, which placed a premium on group loyalty in order to resist a more powerful state. It also backfires once the other side can plausibly claim a majority, as they are extremely quick then to appeal to consensus, majority support etc to shut down the argument. One example of the shortcomings of this sort of thought was Alice Glenn's complaint, which led to her expulsion from FG, that it was odd that so many civil society groups, among which she listed the leaders of the minority churches, took positions opposed to that of the majority. I think the issue was overblown and FG were just looking for a pretext to get rid of her, but it was foolish to say that the minority churches should necessarily reflect the will of the majority; churches should be defined by what they believe to be true, even if the majority in society disagrees.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2013 0:47:13 GMT
Firstly, regarding the IT article, I think we need to take it seriously and realise that much needs to be done to win over the hearts and minds of the middle ground as pro-lifers are now clearly in the minority (unless one defines pro-life as anyone who stops short of abortion on demand, which is a very tenuous definition indeed). Simply referring to the "pro-life majority" all the time is imho to be in denial. We need to focus on why abortion is wrong, not be playing numbers games. Louise, I don't think either Hib or myself want to split the pro-life vote. Where I am coming from is that we need to vote for pro-life candidates regardless of their affiliation. If we were to extend the logic of the Life Institute, then Americans are wrong to vote GOP on the grounds that that party presided on Roe vs. Wade, a strategy that Americans would deride as laughable when considering the alternative.Also, "John Grace" on Cathinfo is now talking about setting up an Irish Life League, modelled on the highly counter-productive tactics used by Jim Dowson. Hopefully, this will not come to pass, the last thing we need is for the pro-choicers to receive confirmation that all pro-lifers are fanatical. I apologise, I took Hib as stating he didn't know if he could keep his promise never to vote FG again as per postcard. My impatient response was, just sign the thing and let FG worry about that. I agree, the truth of abortion is what we should concentrate on now. A lot of very basic understanding on the growth of the foetus is not considered by young people. It's only on talking about it that they realise how uninformed they are.. "I never thought about that." It's not indifference, it's lack of knowledge that will bring in abortion here. We are a generation behind legislation wise but the beauty of that is that we are in a way, a generation ahead in terms of biology, 3d imaging and ethics/humanitarian reasons. We can use that to our advantage, nobody looking at a 3d image can say it's not a baby, unless they've been heard language like "parasite" being used. People who are unsure either way in this country haven't heard terms like that, so the truth and the evil assault on little ones can still have shock value. People in their thirties up seem to have their minds made up, but younger ones have more open searching hearts and a heart for the afflicted. They want to change the world for the good and have the energy and time to try it. That is why it's so important to reach them, they can see the horror of the procedure for what it is, they have few preconceptions. p.s. Can we make it our Lenten penance to learn how to spell Maolsheachlann's name correctly on the boards?
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Post by maolsheachlann on Mar 3, 2013 8:35:36 GMT
Oh, I'm hapy to be spelt any old way!! People often call me Mal and I'm fine with that too, if anyone prefers it.
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Post by Askel McThurkill on Apr 23, 2013 9:24:46 GMT
Six doctors to sign off on suicide? Would this make a difference to an overall legislation package?
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Post by hibernicus on Apr 23, 2013 20:40:27 GMT
I think the six doctors provision will be killed off pretty rapidly - both pro-lifers and pro-choicers are pouring scorn on it. I suspect it was a FG fudge that didn't work (or maybe even a decoy duck, never meant to be enacted but intended to make it seem pro-lifers were being taken into account).
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Post by hibernicus on May 7, 2013 18:37:38 GMT
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Post by hibernicus on May 8, 2013 19:16:35 GMT
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Post by hibernicus on May 22, 2013 20:49:33 GMT
Here's a little piece of news to bear in mind the next time pro-choicers start claiming that by advocating no-restrictions abortion they are "saving women's lives". An US Circuit court (covering California and adjacent states) has struck down an Arizona state law banning abortions after 20 weeks which is based on evidence that the health risks to the woman increase dramatically after 20 weeks. The court accepts that the evidence is correct but strikes down the statute nonetheless: www.nationalreview.com/corner/349075/ninth-circuit-rules-abortion-more-important-women%E2%80%99s-livesBTW the pro-choicers are whining about pro-lifers here getting money and sympathy from America as interference in Irish affairs, but who's pointing out that pro-choicers from across the world ar popping up in the IRISH TIMES aka MOLOCH'S HERALD letters page (and I would be surprised if that is their only form of intervention). There was an Australian pro-choicer on that page today, advocating the misnamed Protection of Life in Pregnancy Bill as a first step towards the "progressive" attitude to "reproductive health care" (i.e. total pro-choice, no restrictions at all) which exists in some Australian states, and I have seen correspondents from Canadian and American pro-choice groups there in the past. These vultures are flocking because they know a victory for them in Ireland will damage the pro-life cause worldwide.
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uriah
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Post by uriah on May 25, 2013 18:30:57 GMT
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Post by hibernicus on May 25, 2013 19:41:30 GMT
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Post by Young Ireland on May 25, 2013 22:10:58 GMT
I agree, however it is nice to see that a pro-life camp still exists within Labour.
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