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Post by hibernicus on Dec 16, 2023 1:29:03 GMT
Have been reading FAITHFUL FOR LIFE, the 1997 autobiography of the famous pro-life campaigner Fr Paul Marx. It certainly gives a strong sense of his personality - he dictated recollections to a tape recorder and then had a secretary edit them. It begins with autobiographical recollections, then increasingly turns into an account of his journeys around the world. Here are a few thoughts - I hope to add more later. (1) He notes that in any country in the world where pro-lifers get together and discuss what is their greatest obstacle, the answer will almost always be - "the local bishops and priests" (with some honourable exceptions. He is quite outspoken about the way his work was sabotaged by various ecclesiastical superiors and colleagues. (2) There is some Irish material - he pays tribute to individuals such as Mavis Keniry and John O'Reilly. He has some very biting comments on Gay Byrne's modus operandi when setting up or suppressing troublesome interviewees. There is an interesting account of his contacts with Archbishop Dermot Ryan. On their first meeting the Archbishop told him Ireland was a Catholic country and there was no risk of abortion being legalised (though he admitted contraception might be a problem) and Fr Marx was shown the door. I suspect the archbishop's mindset reflected inter alia a desire not to be like his predecessor in being pessimistic an suspicious of the world - reflecting a certain Spirit of Vatican II mentality which presented optimism as a binding duty and discouraged suggestions that there might be serious problems ahead.
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Post by hibernicus on Dec 18, 2023 21:54:39 GMT
CONTINUED - It's quite interesting, and sometimes sad, to read Fr Marx's memoir with some knowledge of the US Church context. I was slightly startled to discover that Fr Marx was an academic - he taught family sociology, and he remarks that hearing confessions from married Catholic laity made him realise that there was an imminent crisis over birth control even before Vatican II. He mentions that he briefly opposed HUMANAE VITAE before realising the wider implications. (Any suggestion that he was influenced by being one of the youngest of fifteen children should be resisted; he was a brother who was a monk and a strong opponent of HV, and one gets the impression that they weren't on speaking terms.) He was a monk of St John's Abbey in Collegeville, Minnesota, one of the major world liturgical centres, which now has a reputation for heterodoxy and clerical abuse scandals. His passing remarks about how the monastery and its associated college tend to overshadow the diocesan bishop reflects a pattern found in many US dioceses. Fr Marx came out of the midwestern German-American Catholic tradition. He recalls being shocked by the anti-Protestant attitudes he encountered among Boston Irish clerics whom he met earlier in his career. (Speaking of Boston Irish, one of the sadder details is that Bernard Cardinal Law is frequently mentioned as a supporter of Fr Marx's work - cut is the branch that might have grown full straight...)
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Post by hibernicus on Aug 23, 2024 20:29:48 GMT
I was at the Rally for Life - a very lively occasion, noticeably more working-class in atmosphere. There were quite a few Brazilians and other New Irish - there were also several political groups with banners - while Aontu were most in evidence (and rightly so) the National Party were present with banners, when quite frankly they should be as welcome as the plague. I confess I dislike the name which "the Irish People" have chosen for themselves because it implies that if you disagree with them you don't belong to the Irish people in the broader sense. Any group under present circumstances should realise that it is necessary to start again from ground zero, and to assume that the country is naturally on our side and will rise up if we shout loud enough is to get nowhere fast: www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQiOA7euaYA One moment of cringe - I was standing next to a black woman whom I believe was an immigrant when I noticed some idiot handing out copies of THE IRISH LIGHT with the headline IRELAND INVADED (i.e. by immigrants). The IRISH LIGHT does not belong in decent society, and quite frankly Ireland could spare the perpetrators of that rag much better than it could spare those immigrants who gave up a Saturday afternoon to rally in solidarity with the defenceless.
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Post by Devotus Immaculatae on Aug 24, 2024 17:04:38 GMT
If only people would stop attaching politics and religion to the pro-life movement, it might have a chance to expand from also a genuinely secular humanist perspective. And I mean secular humanist in the true sense of the words, not today’s co-opted versions of the words, which is merely an anti-theist scientism dressed up with the very thin veneer of being some kind of ethical movement.
As much as some people (including perhaps at times myself) might wish otherwise, Ireland will never return to being a small, sovereign, independent nationalist state with a largely homogeneous community and family-based culture and religion. With the remaining native Irish population now around four million and falling in terms of birthrate and ongoing emigration, (a population that is smaller than Greater Manchester), we simply don’t have the critical mass or unity needed to revive or sustain any distinct cultural identity. A cultural identity that was already very significantly diluted over recent centuries. The culmination of this ongoing dilution has inevitably led to a broad alignment with today’s Anglicised, materialistic, and consumerist values.
The LARPing of some new 'Irish' 'far-right' fringe micro parties reflects a yearning for a past similar to the far-right movements of 1970s England. Back then, as now, a refusal to accept that demographics shape destiny led to unrealistic expectations and even further decline and marginalisation of the ordinary working-class English. In today’s world of international corporations, monopolies, federations, internationalism, and globalisation, 'Ireland' and 'Irish' have become geographical terms rather than reflections of any remaining unique cultural identity. Traditional cultural values and distinct national identity in the West are also now viewed as commercially, politically, and materially undesirable, overshadowed and dominated by the global influences of today’s 24/7 interconnectedness.
Given these realities, there is little point in focusing on anything other than our Catholic cultural identity. All we can do is continue to concentrate on nurturing and perfecting our Catholic faith, embodying Christ in our hearts and homes, and building small, genuinely Catholic mixed, integrated communities, and grow from there. Beyond this, much is out of our control. Christ wasn’t interested in the external overthrow of the Romans but in reforming from within, starting with ourselves.
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Post by maolsheachlann on Aug 24, 2024 20:13:18 GMT
If only people would stop attaching politics and religion to the pro-life movement, it might have a chance to expand from also a genuinely secular humanist perspective. And I mean secular humanist in the true sense of the words, not today’s co-opted versions of the words, which is merely an anti-theist scientism dressed up with the very thin veneer of being some kind of ethical movement. As much as some people (including perhaps at times myself) might wish otherwise, Ireland will never return to being a small, sovereign, independent nationalist state with a largely homogeneous community and family-based culture and religion. With the remaining native Irish population now around four million and falling in terms of birthrate and ongoing emigration, (a population that is smaller than Greater Manchester), we simply don’t have the critical mass or unity needed to revive or sustain any distinct cultural identity. A cultural identity that was already very significantly diluted over recent centuries. The culmination of this ongoing dilution has inevitably led to a broad alignment with today’s Anglicised, materialistic, and consumerist values. The LARPing of some new 'Irish' 'far-right' fringe micro parties reflects a yearning for a past similar to the far-right movements of 1970s England. Back then, as now, a refusal to accept that demographics shape destiny led to unrealistic expectations and even further decline and marginalisation of the ordinary working-class English. In today’s world of international corporations, monopolies, federations, internationalism, and globalisation, 'Ireland' and 'Irish' have become geographical terms rather than reflections of any remaining unique cultural identity. Traditional cultural values and distinct national identity in the West are also now viewed as commercially, politically, and materially undesirable, overshadowed and dominated by the global influences of today’s 24/7 interconnectedness. Given these realities, there is little point in focusing on anything other than our Catholic cultural identity. All we can do is continue to concentrate on nurturing and perfecting our Catholic faith, embodying Christ in our hearts and homes, and building small, genuinely Catholic mixed, integrated communities, and grow from there. Beyond this, much is out of our control. Christ wasn’t interested in the external overthrow of the Romans but in reforming from within, starting with ourselves. Nationality and religion are different things. I find such fatalism unwarranted when there is a massive backlash against globalism in America, Europe, India and elsewhere, which indeed only seems to be gathering pace. My religious identity is Catholic, my national identity is Irish. I agree we have a generation of people who have been conditioned into an anti-national way of thinking by decades of propaganda, but it's also clear that many are now turning against this, including many young people. The Irish may only survive as the Apache and Lakota, but even that is worth the fight. Nativist movements are nearly always pro-life, from what I can say. By all means, prolife movements should build bridges to humanists and liberals and others. They don't seem terribly interested, though.
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Post by Devotus Immaculatae on Aug 26, 2024 17:26:05 GMT
I live in a regional area of Ireland, not near Dublin, and yet less than 50% of the students in our local secondary school are Irish. Only 30% of students in the first communion year at our local "Catholic" national school, still under the auspicious and control of the parish and diocese, opted to make their first communion this year. This is common reality now throughout most of Ireland. Realism is not fatalism; recognising changing demographics is not fatalism. Irish regional towns and cities may not want to be the Irish versions of Rochdale, Bradford, Bolton, urban Scotland, and Wales etc. but the simple fact is we were just a few generations behind the curve and are now catching up. The massive backlash you're counting on never materialised there and it's not going to materialise here in reality either. Apart from LARPers on social media, and a few professional protestors, with nothing to loose in terms of jobs, house, and family, ordinary Irish people, like their English counterparts before them, are too busy trying to pay their bills and raise their kids while trying to look "respectable". The massive backlash now as then in 70's England, as has achieved nothing in terms of preserving the indigenous culture history and heritage. Following this massive backlash, polls show exactly same parties we've always had in power in Ireland, are destined to take power again for the next 5 years. "The Irish may only survive as the Apache and Lakota, but even that is worth the fight", that's a pretty low bar and in what form exactly? a mixture of famine theme parks, fleadh cheoil, GAA jerseys, "paddies" day, country music, and tax-free casinos in the already just as anglo americanised cultures of the gaeltacht’s perhaps? but also what kind of fight is that, what has been achieved by it anywhere so far? But regardless, we're way off the topic of actual pro life here. Proponents and opponents alike like to tag many things onto pro-life, but how about just the simple right a child has to a life regardless of class creed religion, non religion, culture or nationality? Yes, bridges should be built where necessary to give all unborn children the chance of life, even if some people never want to see such bridges built there.
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Prolife.
Aug 26, 2024 20:48:04 GMT
via mobile
Post by maolsheachlann on Aug 26, 2024 20:48:04 GMT
I am in favour of every possible alliance being pursued to save as many babies as possible....far-left, far-right, gay, atheist, Muslim, whatever.
Similarly I am in favour of every possible resistance against cultural and political globalisation, compatible with morality. A nation is too precious an inheritance to ever give up on. Brexit was a massive victory in itself, even if it's mostly symbolic so far.
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Post by Devotus Immaculatae on Aug 27, 2024 12:02:25 GMT
I am in favour of every possible alliance being pursued to save as many babies as possible....far-left, far-right, gay, atheist, Muslim, whatever. Similarly I am in favour of every possible resistance against cultural and political globalisation, compatible with morality. A nation is too precious an inheritance to ever give up on. Brexit was a massive victory in itself, even if it's mostly symbolic so far. I agree with you, but in the reality of offline, most people in Ireland simply do not care, or have the time to care, beyond making ends meet for themselves and their family. Of those who do care, the proportion of the population genuinely willing to take practical steps and dedicate their time to preserve us from cultural and political globalisation in a sensible way is minuscule. Brexit is a particularly interesting example of so-called Western democracy in action. Britain was probably the only province still powerful enough to leave the Franco-German EU empire without the EU preventing it, or making it practically impossible. (Though they certainly tried everything). However, those in power in Britain have exacted severe revenge on the working class who voted in Brexit, ensuring it has become a pyrrhic victory. Uncontrolled illegal immigration of young single males without personal identification documents into Britain has been officially-unofficially encouraged to unprecedented levels by all mainstream parties. Many of these individuals, after spending a few months or years in the UK, then head to Ireland, attracted by the even more generous and welcoming welfare and housing benefits for illegal entrants to the country with no questions asked. Demographics is a country's destiny. Meanwhile, in Ireland, we have been thoroughly and very successfully gaslighted into believing that we are still a sovereign independent nation. In reality, after being pressured to keep voting in EU referendums until the "correct" result was achieved, we no longer have ultimate control over our banking, currency, borders, courts, or laws. We cannot even issue something as benign as a car number plate with our own national identity on it. We are only permitted to implement local bye-laws that are based on and subordinate to EU laws and courts. Ireland once a nation be a province once again. The EEC was very beneficial for Ireland, but the federal Franco-German superstate it has morphed into has been disastrous for us and most other weaker countries, although excellent for the Franco-German dream. The EU is now actively involved in the Russo-Ukrainian War, sending weapons, providing military training troops, and funding—all but actual ground troops at this stage, with France hoping to do so, and Germany sending in their tanks but wanting someone else to crew them this time. Meanwhile, the people of Ireland have been gaslighted into believing that deliberately fostered pantomime bogeymen clowns like Justin Barrett and Gemma Doherty, and their minuscule number of online viewers, are the "real threat" facing the Irish people. The safest activity possible in Ireland is criticising these "dangerous extremists" and the other "dangerous extremists" on the far-right. Meanwhile the actual armed political groups in Ireland, who actually murdered a journalist in 2019 are in fact far left. A term never used in Irish media. If you want to know who controls you, look at who you are not allowed to criticise. Polls show us as being consistently the most pro EU province of the EU. There is a lot of insanity going on in Ireland in so many different ways. Perhaps the Island of Ireland was never destined to be united and always destined to be four different provinces, consisting of fractured kingdoms, beset by infighting, and always controlled by the current dominant regional power. Anyways, all that aside, among all the deliberately sowed chaos, all we can do as Catholics is do something practical and positive to help preserve and rebuild small Catholic communities in our own local areas, foster pro-life relations, and build out from there.
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 1, 2024 22:53:45 GMT
Let me make a few comments on these exchanges: (1) Culture and politics are not substitutes for religion and there is much they can't achieve, but I don't think they can just be abandoned in favour of a purely religious identity. We are incarnate beings and Catholicism is a sacramental religion founded on the principle that the supernatural fulfils but does not replace the natural. I might add that even if you are not interested in politics, that doesn't mean that politics is not interested in you. (2) I agree that Ireland is not going to be what it was, and I might add that what it was was not perfect by any means. We still need to understand the society we are living in, rather than retreating into an idealised past or a fantasy future. If we don't understand how we got here, we will be progressively isolated and paralysed. We also need to network and to record our thoughts and experiences (related to a specifically Irish context) or every successive generation will have to start from scratch in what is a progressively more hostile environment.
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 1, 2024 23:14:06 GMT
(3) Here is an interesting example - a school textbook lesson on the values of diversity in which a caricature rural "Irish Ireland" family (eat only bacon and cabbage, only play Irish music, etc) is contrasted with a modern diverse family who travel the world, eat a wide cuisine etc. The aim is clearly to alienate children from "conservative" parents, and it is made clear which family is to be preferred. If the first family were green hippies who didn't travel because of their carbon footprint, ate local food from ecological motives, would they be dismissed so easily? Aren't ultraditionalists of the type depicted - a rare breed nowadays - as likely to be found in urban as rural areas? Would such people only watch Irish films and never Hollywood, given that at least some Hollywood films have conservative elements while many Irish films go out of their way to attack traditionalist views of Irishness? Note that the child of the traditionalist family presents their choices in terms of explicit prohibitions by the parents, rather than the children not even considering certain options (for good or ill) because they have internalised their parents' beliefs. Indeed, the parents are absent from the illustration of the "good" family, which focusses on the children travelling the world, in contrast to their prominence in the "bad" family. gript.ie/outrage-over-vile-portrayal-of-irish-family-in-sphe-schoolbook/ politics.ie/threads/anti-irish-propaganda.290927/BTW I suspect the portrayal of the "Irish Ireland" father with the pitchfork is a conscious or unconscious echo of this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_GothicADDENDUM: This is an embarrassing admission - I thought that the white girl in the "diverse family" picture was the daughter/narrator whose parents were not shown because they let her travel around Europe on her own, in contrast to the controlling "bad" family, and that the people with her were fellow tourists. On closer inspection I have realised that she is in fact the mother of the family, the dark-skinned man with her is the father, and the younger people with "tan" skin are their children. It appears that I subconsciously assume Irish people to be white unless explicitly stated otherwise - even though my conscious mind rejects this view. On the other hand, I note that this skews the scales still further - since the "good" family are mixed-race, any suggestion that there might be disadvantages to diversity can be interpreted as racism, specifically as objecting to racially mixed marriage. I repeat that I reject such objections.
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Post by Devotus Immaculatae on Sept 2, 2024 10:57:46 GMT
(3) Here is an interesting example - a school textbook lesson on the values of diversity in which a caricature rural "Irish Ireland" family (eat only bacon and cabbage, only play Irish music, etc) is contrasted with a modern diverse family who travel the world, eat a wide cuisine etc. The aim is clearly to alienate children from "conservative" parents, and it is made clear which family is to be preferred. If the first family were green hippies who didn't travel because of their carbon footprint, ate local food from ecological motives, would they be dismissed so easily? Aren't ultraditionalists of the type depicted - a rare breed nowadays - as likely to be found in urban as rural areas? Would such people only watch Irish films and never Hollywood, given that at least some Hollywood films have conservative elements while many Irish films go out of their way to attack traditionalist views of Irishness? Note that the child of the traditionalist family presents their choices in terms of explicit prohibitions by the parents, rather than the children not even considering certain options (for good or ill) because they have internalised their parents' beliefs. Indeed, the parents are absent from the illustration of the "good" family, which focusses on the children travelling the world, in contrast to their prominence in the "bad" family. gript.ie/outrage-over-vile-portrayal-of-irish-family-in-sphe-schoolbook/ politics.ie/threads/anti-irish-propaganda.290927/BTW I suspect the portrayal of the "Irish Ireland" father with the pitchfork is a conscious or unconscious echo of this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_GothicIt reminds me of when Irish people were depicted in English and American illustrations as ape-like, although at least it at that time, as far as I am aware, was not actually Irish people publishing and promoting the illustrations. People are fond of throwing the word 'racism' around all day now, and the word, like many others, has lost much of its actual meaning. Those who claim to be anti-racist, yet are the most racist of all towards their own people, always strike me as particularly severely gaslighted individuals. I always like to test these claims by asking would it be acceptable if such an untrue and exaggerated caricature was produced about a Nigerian family? A Traveller family? Can you imagine how severely gaslighted a Nigerian or Traveller community would have to be in order to create and promote such a caricature about their own people, and then publish it in their children’s schoolbooks nationally as part of their national curriculum? Imagine how flawed an administration and government that would go out of their way to permit, defend and indeed promote and encourage, such practices would be? Interesting times ahead, and it's only going to get worse. (And in case anyone should doubt my bona fides, for the public record I genuinely: eat curry chips, follow Wolverhampton Wanderers, have been to the Louvre three times, eat chicken chow mein, have been to Anne Frank house in Amsterdam, and I'm a member of my local GAA club. I can list more and provide receipts and ticket stubs if necessary for when, down the road, the inevtiable new political division of the Gardaí come calling after I've being reported to them by a fellow congregant as a suspected and dangerous far right radical for being observed receiving communion on the tongue at a Mass, genuflecting, and using the holy water font on entrance and exit.)
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Post by Devotus Immaculatae on Sept 2, 2024 13:05:53 GMT
Regarding points one and two, much like the caricature of an Irish family in a schoolbook, I don't believe anyone genuinely advocates such positions to any meaningful extent. It is simply a recognition that the solution to the Church's current issues, whether on a local, national, or international level and, by extension, society's challenges, is not going to be a political one. Internally or externally. As the Church goes, so goes the world. Acknowledging this fact does not equate to rejecting or avoiding the role of politics where appropriate. Taxes have to be collected, roads repaired, services provided, elections held, and Catholics can and should participate. However, it is important to bear in mind that politics, both within and outside the Church, are all means to an end, not the ends in itself. For those of us not in positions of authority within the Vatican or the episcopate, the solutions we can in fact genuinely engage in are those within our local context, starting with ourselves and extending to our efforts within local Catholic communities and, consequently, the wider society. This perspective does not nostalgically idealise any bygone era that never existed. Rather, it realistically recognises that our present state of decline, and the wider lack of any respect for Catholicism, is partly due to a failure to learn from past mismanagement within the Church and the ongoing repetition of those mistakes today. Focusing on critiquing political culture, although much safer and easier and requiring little or no personal effort, often detracts from the more vital task of fostering local spiritual renewal and community engagement, which should be the foundation from which we address broader issues. This stance is not about advocating for isolationism or a retreat into the past. On the contrary, it is about facing the current realities with a clear understanding of where unsung and unapprecated but meaningful and real improvement can be successfully initiated with the most positve and lasting impact.
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 27, 2024 22:50:53 GMT
One little detail that I noticed at both the March for Life and the Rally for Life - groups (which I suspect were connected with TFP) displaying emblems associated with European traditionalist monarchism. At the Rally for Life, this was the flag of the C16 and early C17 Spanish tercios (elite infantry) which is associated with Spanish Carlism. (The emblem - a sort of red St Andrew's Cross with barbs - can be seen on the shield held by the eagle in the image linked below): en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlism#/media/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Requet%C3%A9_(Variant_1).svgAt the March for Life, I noticed an Irish tricolour with the Sacred Heart placed in the centre of the white strip. This is a variant on the French tricolour-with-Sacred Heart used by French Trads; I believe it has French monarchist implications. There are several problems with these. The first is that in France and Spain these banners have instantly recognisable implications, whereas in Ireland most people will find them unintelligible. The second is that traditionalist monarchism is a complete dead end in the Irish context, and has been since 1807. The brushing over of the actual historical roots of modern Ireland (which are a mixture of Catholic and liberal elements, and have significant Protestant input) in favour of a romanticised view of the European ancien regime which brushes over the similarities between that and the old Protestant Ascendancy here, has caused a great deal of harm by promoting delusion, and it is likely to do more. I am not saying this mindset is entirely without value - perhaps someone could use it in fantasy fiction to comment on our present state. But fantasy it is, and mistaking it for anything else will get us nowhere.
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