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Post by Young Ireland on Jun 30, 2021 21:50:53 GMT
ALL the Irish MEPS voted for an extremely pro-abortion report in the European Parliament, describing abortion as a human right and inseparable from democracy. Unfortunately, they seem to reflect Irish public opinion - a recent Euro-wide poll found 60% of Irish respondents favoured abortion on demand. Even allowing for how polls can be skewed, I suspect this means something. Like the outcome of Moloch's Plebiscite, I can suggest four sources: (1) Wilful blindness, because facing up to what abortion really is would entail taking action and possibly getting into trouble. Better to go back to sleepand leave the dirty work to the TDs and the professionals. (2) The view that the church is so discredited by its own crimes and blunders that the Truly Modern Person should support whatever it opposes. (3) Nothing Must Interfere With The Sexual Revolution. (4) How dare anyone - except the media influencers - tell me what to do! If you live in Dublin Bay South, cast a pro-life protest vote on the 8th July by-election and transfer as you please. Put the most obnoxious pro-aborts, of whom there is, alas, no shortage - at the very bottom of your list. Speaking personally, I wouldn't even cast a protest vote for Justin Barrett, for reasons familiar to everyone who has followed his career or read his manifesto THE NATIONAL WAY FORWARD. Can you elucidate those reasons? I don't buy into the National Party's brand of nativism but I'm not sure why Barrett is regarded with such exaggerated horror. He's arrogant and seems rather hypocritical when it comes to divorce, but hardly on a par with the legions of pro-abortion anti-family politicians in the mainstream parties. I haven't read his former manifesto, but I've listened to his speeches for the NP and he's sound on many issues. His party is never going to achieve more than a foothold in the Dáil if that. I think it would be all to the good if any or all of the socially conservative parties had a good showing in elections. In fairness, I think Hibernicus has repeatedly stated why he wouldn't vote for Barrett elsewhere on the forum, as well as providing summaries of the National Way Forward. Also Peadar Laighleis wrote an article for the Brandsma in 2002 critquing the book: fidesetgoedelica.blogspot.com/2015/06/the-national-way-where.htmlIt's not as if there aren't more palatable (and more promising) alternatives - Mairead Toibin of Aontú is the obvious one, though there's also Jacqui Gilbourne and even Dolores Cahill (if you can overlook her pseudoscientific views on Covid). Why waste a vote on somebody whose legacy has been to fashion a rod for our enemies to beat us with?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2021 22:48:18 GMT
Can you elucidate those reasons? I don't buy into the National Party's brand of nativism but I'm not sure why Barrett is regarded with such exaggerated horror. He's arrogant and seems rather hypocritical when it comes to divorce, but hardly on a par with the legions of pro-abortion anti-family politicians in the mainstream parties. I haven't read his former manifesto, but I've listened to his speeches for the NP and he's sound on many issues. His party is never going to achieve more than a foothold in the Dáil if that. I think it would be all to the good if any or all of the socially conservative parties had a good showing in elections. In fairness, I think Hibernicus has repeatedly stated why he wouldn't vote for Barrett elsewhere on the forum, as well as providing summaries of the National Way Forward. Also Peadar Laighleis wrote an article for the Brandsma in 2002 critquing the book: fidesetgoedelica.blogspot.com/2015/06/the-national-way-where.htmlIt's not as if there aren't more palatable (and more promising) alternatives - Mairead Toibin of Aontú is the obvious one, though there's also Jacqui Gilbourne and even Dolores Cahill (if you can overlook her pseudoscientific views on Covid). Why waste a vote on somebody whose legacy has been to fashion a rod for our enemies to beat us with? Hibernicus indicated that he would vote for an abortionist before Justin Barrett. The National Way Forward, for what its worth, does not advocate for anything contrary to Catholic social teaching. Although one may (justly) find parts of it distasteful, it is in no way comparable to baby murder. I would really like to understand the rationale here because it is frankly bewildering.
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Prolife.
Jun 30, 2021 22:50:32 GMT
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Post by maolsheachlann on Jun 30, 2021 22:50:32 GMT
Can you elucidate those reasons? I don't buy into the National Party's brand of nativism but I'm not sure why Barrett is regarded with such exaggerated horror. He's arrogant and seems rather hypocritical when it comes to divorce, but hardly on a par with the legions of pro-abortion anti-family politicians in the mainstream parties. I haven't read his former manifesto, but I've listened to his speeches for the NP and he's sound on many issues. His party is never going to achieve more than a foothold in the Dáil if that. I think it would be all to the good if any or all of the socially conservative parties had a good showing in elections. In fairness, I think Hibernicus has repeatedly stated why he wouldn't vote for Barrett elsewhere on the forum, as well as providing summaries of the National Way Forward. Also Peadar Laighleis wrote an article for the Brandsma in 2002 critquing the book: fidesetgoedelica.blogspot.com/2015/06/the-national-way-where.htmlIt's not as if there aren't more palatable (and more promising) alternatives - Mairead Toibin of Aontú is the obvious one, though there's also Jacqui Gilbourne and even Dolores Cahill (if you can overlook her pseudoscientific views on Covid). Why waste a vote on somebody whose legacy has been to fashion a rod for our enemies to beat us with? I agree Aontú seem like the best party for faithful Catholics right now. I didn't really see anything in Peadar's review that would make me recoil. It would be interesting to hear an elaboration of the passage on American constitutionalism. The truth is that, at this stage, the Overton window has shrunk so far that being prolife or pro-traditional marriage is just as "far right" as anything Mr. Barrett stands for.
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Post by Young Ireland on Jul 1, 2021 6:23:21 GMT
In fairness, I think Hibernicus has repeatedly stated why he wouldn't vote for Barrett elsewhere on the forum, as well as providing summaries of the National Way Forward. Also Peadar Laighleis wrote an article for the Brandsma in 2002 critquing the book: fidesetgoedelica.blogspot.com/2015/06/the-national-way-where.htmlIt's not as if there aren't more palatable (and more promising) alternatives - Mairead Toibin of Aontú is the obvious one, though there's also Jacqui Gilbourne and even Dolores Cahill (if you can overlook her pseudoscientific views on Covid). Why waste a vote on somebody whose legacy has been to fashion a rod for our enemies to beat us with? Hibernicus indicated that he would vote for an abortionist before Justin Barrett. The National Way Forward, for what its worth, does not advocate for anything contrary to Catholic social teaching. Although one may (justly) find parts of it distasteful, it is in no way comparable to baby murder. I would really like to understand the rationale here because it is frankly bewildering. Last time I checked, describing immigration as "genocidal" and a "genetic" problem is very difficult to square with Catholic social teaching. The same could be said about the party's ethnonationalism (in the Old Testament, there are several examples of inter-racial marriage being referred to positively, such as those of Moses and Ruth).
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Post by Young Ireland on Jul 1, 2021 6:28:48 GMT
In fairness, I think Hibernicus has repeatedly stated why he wouldn't vote for Barrett elsewhere on the forum, as well as providing summaries of the National Way Forward. Also Peadar Laighleis wrote an article for the Brandsma in 2002 critquing the book: fidesetgoedelica.blogspot.com/2015/06/the-national-way-where.htmlIt's not as if there aren't more palatable (and more promising) alternatives - Mairead Toibin of Aontú is the obvious one, though there's also Jacqui Gilbourne and even Dolores Cahill (if you can overlook her pseudoscientific views on Covid). Why waste a vote on somebody whose legacy has been to fashion a rod for our enemies to beat us with? I agree Aontú seem like the best party for faithful Catholics right now. I didn't really see anything in Peadar's review that would make me recoil. It would be interesting to hear an elaboration of the passage on American constitutionalism. The truth is that, at this stage, the Overton window has shrunk so far that being prolife or pro-traditional marriage is just as "far right" as anything Mr. Barrett stands for. I agree that the Overton window has shrunken a lot in this country, however the response should not be to ally with racists and fascists. Doing this would alienate a large constituency that could be sympathetic to our views (many ethnic minorities attend the Rally for Life every year) in return for attracting a much smaller number of people. That doesn't make sense in a context where we need to persuade the majority of the correctness of our views in order to roll back abortion and gay "marriage".
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Prolife.
Jul 1, 2021 7:15:53 GMT
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Post by maolsheachlann on Jul 1, 2021 7:15:53 GMT
Well, anything short of supporting Black Lives Matter is racism these days. I've listened to a lot of Justin Barret's National Party speeches and I've never heard him claim one race is superior to another, which I consider the only meaningful definition of racism.
I agree ethnonationalism in the genetic sense is incompatible with Catholic social teaching. Indeed my wife would be "paper Irish' by his definition. I don't take this (or whatever references to genocide may have been made) seriously. There will never be a National Party government...open borders are not Catholic social teaching either and there is plenty of room of critique of our country's immigration policy.
I reject the idea that ethnic minorities are automatically pro-multiculturalism. Many of them voted for Brexit in Britain.
I do want to roll back abortion and gay marriage, and resist euthanasia etc. I also want to resist globalism as far as possible, which I believe is compatible with Catholic teaching-- indeed, even Pope Francis speaks of the "globalization of the polyhedron", as opposed to the sphere... difference, not sameness. If nationalist parties doing well pushes in that direction, good.
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Post by Young Ireland on Jul 1, 2021 7:55:49 GMT
Well, anything short of supporting Black Lives Matter is racism these days. I've listened to a lot of Justin Barret's National Party speeches and I've never heard him claim one race is superior to another, which I consider the only meaningful definition of racism. I agree ethnonationalism in the genetic sense is incompatible with Catholic social teaching. Indeed my wife would be "paper Irish' by his definition. I don't take this (or whatever references to genocide may have been made) seriously. There will never be a National Party government...open borders are not Catholic social teaching either and there is plenty of room of critique of our country's immigration policy. I reject the idea that ethnic minorities are automatically pro-multiculturalism. Many of them voted for Brexit in Britain. I do want to roll back abortion and gay marriage, and resist euthanasia etc. I also want to resist globalism as far as possible, which I believe is compatible with Catholic teaching-- indeed, even Pope Francis speaks of the "globalization of the polyhedron", as opposed to the sphere... difference, not sameness. If nationalist parties doing well pushes in that direction, good. You don't think this is racist (I know it was his wife that sent the tweet, but it does show that the party is racist)? Regarding ethnic minorities and Brexit, this could just as easily be due to their closer attachment to the Commonwealth than the EU, and the former will only get more important for Britain now that it has left the EU, so I wouldn't necessarily read too much into that.
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Prolife.
Jul 1, 2021 8:09:01 GMT
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Post by maolsheachlann on Jul 1, 2021 8:09:01 GMT
Well, anything short of supporting Black Lives Matter is racism these days. I've listened to a lot of Justin Barret's National Party speeches and I've never heard him claim one race is superior to another, which I consider the only meaningful definition of racism. I agree ethnonationalism in the genetic sense is incompatible with Catholic social teaching. Indeed my wife would be "paper Irish' by his definition. I don't take this (or whatever references to genocide may have been made) seriously. There will never be a National Party government...open borders are not Catholic social teaching either and there is plenty of room of critique of our country's immigration policy. I reject the idea that ethnic minorities are automatically pro-multiculturalism. Many of them voted for Brexit in Britain. I do want to roll back abortion and gay marriage, and resist euthanasia etc. I also want to resist globalism as far as possible, which I believe is compatible with Catholic teaching-- indeed, even Pope Francis speaks of the "globalization of the polyhedron", as opposed to the sphere... difference, not sameness. If nationalist parties doing well pushes in that direction, good. You don't think this is racist (I know it was his wife that sent the tweet, but it does show that the party is racist)? Regarding ethnic minorities and Brexit, this could just as easily be due to their closer attachment to the Commonwealth than the EU, and the former will only get more important for Britain now that it has left the EU, so I wouldn't necessarily read too much into that. I wouldn't call it racist, but certainly bigoted and ignorant. Trivial, though. EDIT: I originally wrote that Hazel Chu is unbearable. I can't remember the particular tweets I was referring to but I definitely got the impression she is always playing the race card. I can't find immediate evidence of that. Of course she is fully entitled to respond to online abuse, but I'm pretty sure I've encountered race-baiting that went beyond that. However, I can't find evidence of it right now and I'm in a hurry so I'll let it drop. To be clear I consider her just as Irish as I am.
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Prolife.
Jul 2, 2021 9:01:23 GMT
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Jul 2, 2021 9:01:23 GMT
First of all, Justin Barrett's book is very poorly written and reflective of someone who is not well educated, though intelligent. He was seriously influenced by the International Third Position and a certain kind of traditionalism at the time of writing. I understand he has moved away from that somewhat due to his lifestyle changes since then. But the proposal of a dictatorship is unacceptable. The only pro life solution in the book is protest. This was written long before the 2001 referendum, which was the best offer we got. This was narrowly defeated largely thanks to Justin Barrett. The connections with the German NDP and Italian Forza Nuova are also very concerning. Personally, though I would much prefer if Justin Barrett would just acknowledge he will never get anywhere and just shut up, because as it is he is not helping, he's only taking from serious efforts such as Aontú.
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Post by assisi on Jul 2, 2021 14:14:29 GMT
Hibernicus indicated that he would vote for an abortionist before Justin Barrett. The National Way Forward, for what its worth, does not advocate for anything contrary to Catholic social teaching. Although one may (justly) find parts of it distasteful, it is in no way comparable to baby murder. I would really like to understand the rationale here because it is frankly bewildering. Last time I checked, describing immigration as "genocidal" and a "genetic" problem is very difficult to square with Catholic social teaching. The same could be said about the party's ethnonationalism (in the Old Testament, there are several examples of inter-racial marriage being referred to positively, such as those of Moses and Ruth). Catholic Social Teaching is fine during relatively normal times but we are currently undergoing a full frontal anti-Catholic and anti-Nation movement that has the backing of all the powerful secular entities in the Western world. While we are playing by the rules these powers are doing everything in their power, legal or illegal, to destroy us.
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Prolife.
Jul 2, 2021 15:05:46 GMT
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Post by maolsheachlann on Jul 2, 2021 15:05:46 GMT
Last time I checked, describing immigration as "genocidal" and a "genetic" problem is very difficult to square with Catholic social teaching. The same could be said about the party's ethnonationalism (in the Old Testament, there are several examples of inter-racial marriage being referred to positively, such as those of Moses and Ruth). Catholic Social Teaching is fine during relatively normal times but we are currently undergoing a full frontal anti-Catholic and anti-Nation movement that has the backing of all the powerful secular entities in the Western world. While we are playing by the rules these powers are doing everything in their power, legal or illegal, to destroy us. I agree. You don't have to believe in any Great Replacement Theory to see that the nation is being deliberately undermined in our era and I feel some affinity with anyone who is seeking to defend it.
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Post by Young Ireland on Jul 2, 2021 16:43:07 GMT
Last time I checked, describing immigration as "genocidal" and a "genetic" problem is very difficult to square with Catholic social teaching. The same could be said about the party's ethnonationalism (in the Old Testament, there are several examples of inter-racial marriage being referred to positively, such as those of Moses and Ruth). Catholic Social Teaching is fine during relatively normal times but we are currently undergoing a full frontal anti-Catholic and anti-Nation movement that has the backing of all the powerful secular entities in the Western world. While we are playing by the rules these powers are doing everything in their power, legal or illegal, to destroy us. Last time I checked, consequentialism was also contrary to Catholic teaching.
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Post by Young Ireland on Jul 2, 2021 16:49:10 GMT
Catholic Social Teaching is fine during relatively normal times but we are currently undergoing a full frontal anti-Catholic and anti-Nation movement that has the backing of all the powerful secular entities in the Western world. While we are playing by the rules these powers are doing everything in their power, legal or illegal, to destroy us. I agree. You don't have to believe in any Great Replacement Theory to see that the nation is being deliberately undermined in our era and I feel some affinity with anyone who is seeking to defend it. The problem with this mindset is that it can lead to a myopic support for groups that shouldn't be supported, which could actually result in more harm to the pro-life and pro-family cause than benefit. The fact that there are other pro-life candidates who do not have the baggage of Mr. Barrett only tilts the pendulum towards the former. The only way a vote for Mr. Barrett would make sense in this context is if national identity was a higher priority than life or family issues, a view that I don't share to put it mildly.
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Prolife.
Jul 2, 2021 17:58:53 GMT
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Post by maolsheachlann on Jul 2, 2021 17:58:53 GMT
I agree. You don't have to believe in any Great Replacement Theory to see that the nation is being deliberately undermined in our era and I feel some affinity with anyone who is seeking to defend it. The problem with this mindset is that it can lead to a myopic support for groups that shouldn't be supported, which could actually result in more harm to the pro-life and pro-family cause than benefit. The fact that there are other pro-life candidates who do not have the baggage of Mr. Barrett only tilts the pendulum towards the former. The only way a vote for Mr. Barrett would make sense in this context is if national identity was a higher priority than life or family issues, a view that I don't share to put it mildly. I think our debate here really comes down to where disagreement ends and abhorrence begins. I disagree with Fintan O'Toole and abhor him, or rather, his views. I don't feel the same abhorrence for Justin Barrett or the NP. They seem to me to exemplify an understandable and even healthy reaction taken too far. Hibernicus (who I usually agree with) has expressed abhorrence for the NP a couple of times now and I think it's fair to ask why it's so intense.
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Prolife.
Jul 3, 2021 21:01:25 GMT
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Post by maolsheachlann on Jul 3, 2021 21:01:25 GMT
I think our different perspectives might also have to do with the fact that I don't have any memories of prolife politics of the past. I didn't really have any preconceptions of Justin Barrett when he started the National Party. I personally think the result of the 2018 referendum was inevitable. Ireland did well to hold out as long as it did.
We all know prolife politics for the foreseeable future is about persuading individuals not to have one, and perhaps trying to make our abortion regimes somewhat more restrictive. However it should also be plain that supranational institutions have a liberal social agenda, so nationalism is not irrelevant to social conservatism.
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