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Post by hibernicus on Dec 2, 2023 0:38:16 GMT
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Post by hibernicus on Feb 15, 2024 23:51:02 GMT
The demise of the Veritas chain of bookshops is a significant loss - it's just been announced that they will close by the end of the year with the loss of 80 jobs. The bishops' conference say the financial situation is unsustainable. I suspect this reflects a declining readership for Catholic books, and for books in general, but also a loss of will to keep this tool for evangelisation going. BTW does anyone know when the old Catholic Truth Society of Ireland, of which Veritas is a remnant, declined into this vestigial state? In the early 20th century its annual conferences were major occasions addressed by prominent public figures. www.irishcatholic.com/veritas-a-huge-loss/
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Post by Devotus Immaculatae on Feb 16, 2024 14:39:13 GMT
Another sad and regressive move IMHO. Veritas required consolidation, reform and regeneration, not closure. Some of the shops were always busy and the busier shops must have been at least paying for themselves, and their online shop did well too, but Veritas overall has been losing money for quite a few years. Much of the money was perhaps misspent on HQ costs / publishing, or other initiatives etc. rather than the core business. There were many good and bad things about Veritas. It stocked some very questionable books and promoted some very questionable authors as well as good solid Catholic resources. I believe some of the shops also opened on Sunday and required to staff to work on Sunday. Apart from its faults, it was good to have some kind of Catholic presence on the main streets. Many people who were only nominally Catholic would still pop in for first communion gifts, confirmation gifts, Mass cards, Catholic jewellery, presents etc. Perhaps, God willing, some of the busier shops might be able to continue on in some fashion or form independently run, or run by that diocese. Some Independent Catholic shops do manage to continue to trade successfully in parts of the country.
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Post by Beinidict Ó Niaidh on Feb 16, 2024 17:32:44 GMT
The demise of the Veritas chain of bookshops is a significant loss - it's just been announced that they will close by the end of the year with the loss of 80 jobs. The bishops' conference say the financial situation is unsustainable. I suspect this reflects a declining readership for Catholic books, and for books in general, but also a loss of will to keep this tool for evangelisation going. BTW does anyone know when the old Catholic Truth Society of Ireland, of which Veritas is a remnant, declined into this vestigial state? In the early 20th century its annual conferences were major occasions addressed by prominent public figures. www.irishcatholic.com/veritas-a-huge-loss/Not in the least surprised, other than how long this took. I have quite a lot of inside information on Veritas over a few decades and I am aware of many difficulties. 1. Its business model. It's a private company with charitable status, nothing wrong with that. However, that's not how it was run. It was run more as if it was a semi-state body; management made decisions and expected the hierarchy to bail it out if it went wrong. One thing that was clear to me in its Abbey St shop, is that there were far too many employees and they did not necessarily have any interest in the business itself. Veritas also had a reputation of having a high mark up price. They also had a reputation of not honouring invoices unless they were compelled to do it. Ok, there is other stuff I will not post here but am well able to talk off the record; 2. Some employees spoke about a toxic atmosphere. I am talking about orthodox Catholics in the publishing wing (and publishing is, and was, part of the core business - it has been the Irish publishing house of the Holy See, and the bishops) who were deliberately worn down for their efforts. Veritas has been under the strangle hold of the catechetical establishment; 3. The bishops have been light touch in their supervision of the entity. However, I did hear at an earlier stage that at some point, the hierarchy issued a warning to Veritas to get their act together. However, I do believe that there could have been a more robust intervention at a much earlier stage. These problems are long standing and go back several decades; and 4. I know a former Veritas employee who got into serious trouble for alerting PPs (Veritas supplies parish churches with books too) to the fact they were in credit to the entity. That is just a flavour.
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Post by Devotus Immaculatae on Feb 16, 2024 18:06:15 GMT
Just goes to show we don't know what goes on behind the scenes. If that's the case, sounds like the rot was well set in for years, and if the Irish Bishops were unwilling or perhaps unable to clean house, it sounds like unfortunately closure was the best remaining option. I feel for the ordinary faithful Catholic shop assistants and customers.
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Post by hibernicus on Apr 17, 2024 21:38:01 GMT
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Apr 26, 2024 16:06:01 GMT
Both fascinating. I am taken by Tom Holland's observation on the influence of 'Godless Protestantism' on Ireland. This was once a very ironic byword in Ireland for anything which was hostile to all that was good and decent. And people doubt the existence of Satan.
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Post by hibernicus on Apr 26, 2024 21:55:58 GMT
I would have thought the byword was "Godless Communism" rather than "Godless Protestantism". There were various epithets for Protestantism ("souper" and the like but I haven't come across "Godless") though it was often suggested that Protestantism led to unbelief in the long term.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2024 4:00:41 GMT
Perhaps you all saw this already, but I missed it: a hit piece from January about the Mater Dei Academy. It is an entirely unserious article written by someone who is unfamiliar with Catholicism (hence the title -- "ultra-Catholic"?) but who probably went to Catholic school in Ireland. I noted a couple of things. First, that the Eucharistic procession in Cork in 2023 was the largest gathering in 20 years, and the students of Mater Dei were invited to lead the procession. Second, the school, thanks to the "journalist", is now suspect for holding to Catholic teachings on sexuality, etc. Will schools such as Mater Dei Academy be allowed to operate out in the open in the years to come? Are the legal protections currently in place sturdy enough? Regardless, the existence of Mater Dei Academy and its homeschooling program is a much needed hopeful sign. I wish it weren't funded by an American foundation, but perhaps that's the only way, for now. The school isn't run by the foundation, or by anyone on the foundation's board. It was founded by an Irishman, a scientist, and his French wife. For some reason, Mater Dei Academy/Homeschooling is treated with caution or, worse, suspicion on this forum, and I cannot fathom why. Is it perfect? Probably not. But I don't think the "let's wait and see" attitude is the correct one. The perfect is the enemy of the good, and so on. Devotus, you hoped to discuss green shoots on this forum. Here is one.
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Post by hibernicus on May 13, 2024 21:17:48 GMT
The reason the school was treated with caution on this forum is because the publicity material didn't provide very much information. There are quite a few examples of Catholic education projects both here and the US that promised much and soon collapsed - I am not saying that Mater Dei is such a project, but that it should be as clear as possible about its operations if it wants parents to entrust it with their children's education; the same would be true of any such school. The linked article actually gives some detail about the basic school model, its links and the names of the proprietor. The article clearly implies that schools teaching traditional Christian doctrine on sexuality should not be allowed to operate. Note the scare about "right-wing US Republicans" and the hint that it is out of step with the Vatican. BTW I notice Mick Barry TD is quoted without any reference to his far-left politics. I picked up at least one factual error. Farranferris was a diocesan seminary run by secular priests, not religious orders.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on May 14, 2024 10:25:53 GMT
Perhaps you all saw this already, but I missed it: a hit piece from January about the Mater Dei Academy. It is an entirely unserious article written by someone who is unfamiliar with Catholicism (hence the title -- "ultra-Catholic"?) but who probably went to Catholic school in Ireland. I noted a couple of things. First, that the Eucharistic procession in Cork in 2023 was the largest gathering in 20 years, and the students of Mater Dei were invited to lead the procession. Second, the school, thanks to the "journalist", is now suspect for holding to Catholic teachings on sexuality, etc. Will schools such as Mater Dei Academy be allowed to operate out in the open in the years to come? Are the legal protections currently in place sturdy enough? Regardless, the existence of Mater Dei Academy and its homeschooling program is a much needed hopeful sign. I wish it weren't funded by an American foundation, but perhaps that's the only way, for now. The school isn't run by the foundation, or by anyone on the foundation's board. It was founded by an Irishman, a scientist, and his French wife. For some reason, Mater Dei Academy/Homeschooling is treated with caution or, worse, suspicion on this forum, and I cannot fathom why. Is it perfect? Probably not. But I don't think the "let's wait and see" attitude is the correct one. The perfect is the enemy of the good, and so on. Devotus, you hoped to discuss green shoots on this forum. Here is one. First of all, the important thing you need to know about the journalist is that she is a teacher in one of the Educate Together schools in Cork which is all you need to know. Yes - we treat everything in this vein with extreme caution, with the emphasis on extreme. I suppose before I go any further, the US origin is enough to raise questions as most of us would not have great confidence in the United States when it comes to either education or culture and the fact that the founders have a background in the MIT only signifies that they are highly skilled in one area. It's also the case that we have been very disappoined. St Patrick's Academy in Islandeady while it lasted did not add to our collective efforts, it rather very much took from them. It absorbed time, energy, effort, money, valuable column inches and it delivered nothing. And it was not a good school. But I would still prefer a bad school to homeschooling which is presented as a one size fits all measure in the US Trad press, where it isn't even a one size fits most - I consider it the absolute last resort. I suppose I was disgusted to see two parents of my acquaintance both of whom had post graduate degrees encourage another couple who had no third level experience to home school their children without it occurring to them that the second couple hadn't the same wherewithal to do it. I've seen homeschooling, not just on religious grounds, but it's something which is not pretty when it goes wrong. There are very few people out there with a well rounded education in the humanities and sciences who have knowledge of both Irish and a third language, have the drive to provide physical education in addition and can do arts, crafts, music and other skill areas, while giving a religious and civic education in addition. I think it's very best to be risk adverse when it comes to education - it's not all about imparting knowledge about things you yourself are interested in or have an aptitude for. When it comes to school, I would personally hate to recommend a school to a parent and then have them come back to me to say it didn't work out. There's absolutely too much at stake. I am not going by anything in the article, though I can say I have no confidence in the US Saints and Scholars group who are funding this school. I have encouraged a number of alternatives to homeschooling in the past, and the main one is the continental traditional Catholic scouting movement. There is a group in Ireland - Gasóga na hEorpa. I think that the first thing to do is to properly explore options - but in general, our people do not do reflection very well.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2024 5:09:02 GMT
Goodness, I couldn't disagree more, Alaisdir. I can only assume it is lack of exposure to home-schooled Catholics that leads you to say such things, which are at odds with common experience (across a wide spectrum, not merely among the "trads"). I have met many adults and children who have been home-schooled or are being home-schooled, and all have been remarkably mature and interesting people -- and educated people. In fact, the contrast between them and their non-home-schooled peers (including myself) was so stark that I would say home-schooling ought to be preferred over even good schools, and those are rare. Indeed, among young Catholic parents everywhere, the consensus seems to be that home-schooling is the first option, not the last resort. Not only that, but my home-schooled acquaintances come from almost exclusively non-intellectual homes, whose parents may or may not have a degree of some kind, so your "disgust" with your acquaintance is very much misplaced and unfair.
As an aside, the idea that third-level experience is needed in order to provide a good education may indeed be backwards. At Montessori schools, it was found that the students did better with teachers who had less university experience, not more. Those with higher degrees would interfere with the Montessori methods. Also, I think it ought to go without saying at this point that university education is quite worthless, perhaps especially in Ireland. The Dublin elite are amongst the most "educated" people in Ireland, if you go by third-level experience. I learned far more in a year of personal study, in conversation with friends, after leaving university than I did in my whole university experience, and this was at an Ivy League university (not that that means very much).
The lesson is that it is the model and methods that matter, not at all the academic background or intellectual ability of the parents. Choose a good home-schooling model and program, look for help where needed (and it is always available), guide the children along the way, participate in activities and clubs outside of the home, and you can be sure that your children will be further ahead than had they attended almost any school.
A fairly public, Irish example: Katie Ascough, home-schooled through the Mother of Divine Grace program. I imagine you are familiar with Katie and her project (Called to More) and how she was treated at UCD for her views on abortion. In my experience, Katie is far closer to the norm than to the exception.
And I haven't even mentioned the number of vocations to the priesthood and religious life that come out of home-schooling families. I have also never heard of a home-schooled Catholic child leaving the Faith. For all these reasons, I will continue recommending to other parents that they home-school their children, regardless of their educational experience. And I know many priests take it for granted that home-schooled children are far more mature and well-formed as men and women, and as Catholics, than their schooled counterparts. And, no, these priests are not reading the "US Trad press". The fruits are there to see. When the children are older and more help may be needed, then there are places like Mater Dei Academy.
Indeed, I think Mater Dei gets the educational arc exactly right. Parents *ought* to home-school their very young children, as they are the primary educators of their children, as the Church has always taught. In later years, especially the teenage years, schools can play a role in conjunction with parents. I think it is very strange, verging on the irresponsible, to send one's children to school at the ages of five or six to be educated and formed by strangers for over a decade, with little to no control over what one's children are taught, and yet it is the norm. It is a rare thing for Catholic children to actually be formed by their parents.
Finally, with respect to Mater Dei Academy, I'm not sure what more you could ask for in terms of publicity materials. Have you looked at their website? In any case, no parent entrusts their child to a school based on "publicity materials." Any parent who is serious about his or her child's formation will inquire and likely speak with a number of people at a school before sending his or her child there. And you note the exceptional failures. I would note the incredible number of successes. It is commonly remarked upon that classical Catholic schools of this kind are an area of fecundity in the Church, at the moment, not a source of despair. And this is not a strictly American phenomenon.
It is the automatic caution and scepticism and cynicism that so disturbs me (note the way Devotus was "welcomed"), because it is without adequate justification. But it seems that is always the temptation with forums.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on May 15, 2024 11:50:25 GMT
Goodness, I couldn't disagree more, Alaisdir. That's fine; we'll have to agree to disagree. I have seen a number of home-schooled children (and adults - many are adults in this case) and my conclusion is that home schooling is the last resort. I do believe that if home schooling was complemented by other activities (Catholic scouting for example) it might work, but I don't believe the average adult can educate their children to 18 to a degree that a school can do. It might be possible at primary level, to 12, but I am skeptical about second level, unless you are supplementing their education in other ways. Well, forgive me if I don't accept the last as a general principle. It doesn't correspond with my own experience. I would say absolute last resort and I have also heard some traditional clergy - I am not going to say who - comment on the quality of home schooling. In some cases, reading material hasn't progressed beyond the Lives of the Saints. Yes, I was disgusted in the case I mentioned. I more disgusted now because I saw that the children didn't benefit. I am skeptical of education across the Anglo-sphere and neither Ivy League nor Oxbridge impress me. I think that Irish people think that our education system is good, because (1) we are on an island and (2) we compare ourselves to England and the US (and I deliberately use "England" here; Scotland is different) which is inadequate. I personally find continental Europe provides better educational model, especially in the former communist bloc. Yes, I have learnt a lot through personal study myself, which is ongoing and lifelong, but this is not for never will be the same as a disciplined course of study with external validation. No matter what problems exist in the institution. If I believed it necessary to educate a child, I would steer clear of programmes. I know what curriculum the state sets and in many subject areas, I know how I would supplement it. But I would never impose this on a child unless forced by necessity. My own instinct is that there was more to the story about Katie Ascough than which met the eye in UCD. Anyway, I think there's a lot more to Catholicism in Ireland than the Ascough and Conroy families (also homeschooled). I didn't like or appreciate Ms Ascough's comments about Aontú, whom she found to left wing for her liking. I am absolutely sorry to contradict you on this point, but I do know (and know of) home-schooled Catholic children who have left the faith (one of the reasons I am even more disgusted now than previously in the case above). Well, I am going to continue to recommend that they shouldn't and as I have said, I know priests who take the opposite view, some of whom do read the US Trad Press. If I said that to some of the young married couples I know where both are working because they have little option but to do so, I can imagine the reaction they would get. I do have more experience of the education from various angles which is not for discussion here (my CV is not for public consumption) and I do find fault with how many parents delegate education to the schools (and this came up in conversation with a Catholic school principal last night, as it happens). One of the problems is that we did. We also looked at some of the stuff their front woman in the US is coming out with. First of all, I would always look away from the US and towards the continent of Europe. I am not impressed by any model home schooled children, because I haven't met any and I have met the contrary and I have met more than enough of those. In many European countries, homeschooling is forbidden. For this reason the Union Internationale Scouts et Guides d'Europe exists and it has affiliates across the continent of Europe (Ireland included) and it supplies a considerable number of vocations as they are found in several western European cultures. A lot of the FSSP in France and Germany come from this background. Now there are problems there too, but this is barely known in the English speaking world and pilgrims on the Paris-Chartres walk marvel at the number of scouts and guides not just in the French but also in the Belgian, German, Swiss and Austrian chapters (I have seen the Italian affiliate in Rome too at a Corpus Christi procession). I know I mentioned Eastern Block education approvingly. I like the method used by Lithuanian Catholics used to circumvent the Soviet ban on religious instruction - you can read about it on the Brandsma Review website. In regard to the Irish language requirement in Ireland, I am blue in the face advising Catholic groups here to organise a coláiste samhraidh for children to have a Gaeltacht based experience in the summer months through a Catholic ethos, but no one ever took me up on it. Education is not just academic. Listen to what I enumerated: humanities (we're strong on those); sciences (less so, but we have some people); Irish and other languages (moving further away); physical education (too many nerds; and sending a kid to a sports club isn't a solution); technical subjects - woodwork, metalwork etc (well you tell me); domestic science (maybe a bit); agriculture and horticulture; art and music (and I am not talking about having a voice or playing an instrument; I am talking about educating a child in music appreciation and musicianship and the same for art; dancing comes in here and I think a lot of boys could use the discipline of learning to dance properly - it's not for nothing it was on the curriculum in a lot of military acadamies); commerce and business. There are just too many boxes to tick than most parents can manage. A situation involving homeschooling would require pooling and co-ops, there should be supplements like the scouting movement and at second level there needs to be a physical school, but I would base it on a continental rather than an American model.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2024 2:55:56 GMT
If parents do not actually take steps to educate their children at home, then it can hardly be called home-schooling. If parents leave their children with the Lives of the Saints and call it home-schooling, it has nothing to do with the intellectual ability of the parents and everything to do with a lack of resolve. The Mater Dei model, which is actually modelled on the Chesterton Academy (which draws inspiration from many sources -- and few of them American), is well established at this point. In Canada, such an academy exists in Calgary and is flourishing. All these academies begin at about the age of thirteen or fourteen. It is all home-schooling before that. In this way, children are actually formed by their parents in the Faith, and they learn virtues in the setting of an often large family. I worked at a Christian private secondary school as an educational assistant for an academic year. During that time, I realised that the typical school is essentially a full time day-care until the age of fifteen, assuming the children have spent the previous decade in school. After the age of fifteen, schools become university preparation. This private school was not exceptional. If a young couple cannot educate their own children because they both must work from necessity, then that is tragic. It was in response to situations such as these that Pius XI wrote: "It is an intolerable abuse, and to be abolished at all cost, for mothers on account of the father's low wage to be forced to engage in gainful occupations outside the home to the neglect of their proper cares and duties, especially the training of children." And thankfully, the Irish people voted overwhelmingly to retain the current wording of the Constitution on the important role of mothers in the raising of children. Obviously, an "ought" is conditional on the practice being possible. We ought to attend Mass on Sundays. It is not always possible. On the other hand, and this seems uncontroversial at this point, Catholic schools in Ireland are not a legitimate option, unless truly no other option exists. I would be hesitant to even call them a last resort. I have heard from young Catholics in Ireland who say the same thing, with a disgust equal to yours, and who attended these schools and only later reverted to the Faith. Even the bishops appear to agree. I just wish the priests and bishops of Ireland were more emphatic. As with everywhere in the West, Catholic schools are places where children are sent to lose whatever fledgling faith they have. Irish Catholic schools are just exceptionally bad. The classical Catholic schools, beginning with their home-schooling programmes, provide a far more well-rounded education than any alternative (humanities, sciences, arts, etc.), whether in Ireland or elsewhere, and that is in large part because they are actually Catholic, founded on Catholic beliefs and values and tradition. But no school will be able to supply a child's every need. That is not what they are for. You say a homeschooling situation would require pooling and co-ops, but that is exactly how these schools operate! Chesterton Academy, Mater Dei, Gilbertine Academy -- they all support home-schooling parents with networks and pooling, etc, prior to the children entering the actual, physical school. The parents are expected to be involved at every step. I do not believe you have done enough research on Mater Dei, as this is quite clear. You have a fixation on one particular American woman and her bad history, even though she has little to do with the actual school. As for universities, I will do my best to quote Alasdair MacIntyre from memory: "From a Catholic perspective, the modern university is at fault, not insofar as it isn't Catholic, but insofar as it isn't a university." That is from his book God, Philosophy, Universities, in which he pays special attention to the university in the minds and lives of Aquinas and of Newman. I would discourage anyone from attending university, unless it is one of a select few Catholic or Christian liberal arts colleges, or unless they have a very specific reason for attending -- e.g., to become a nurse, an engineer, etc., where formal education is simply required. That is the only purpose such universities serve today. It comes down to your personal experience, which I maintain is limited and not reflective of the common experience of most Catholics, who now joke that it used to be a sin not to send one's children to Catholic school, and now it is a sin to send one's children to Catholic school. In my immediate experience: our very good and faithful priest was home-schooled, his brother, also a priest and also home-schooled, has just been sent to Rome for further studies -- they do not come from an intellectual family, nor are they trad in the least. A large, young family (the only large, young family) that attends Mass in our parish home-school -- they are charismatic, if anything, and not trad. Their children are attentive and reverent at Mass, and well-mannered and mature after Mass. Our friends from a neighbouring town, a family of seven, home-school. Same thing, except more traditional. In our last parish, an Ordinariate parish, the priest was a former Anglican and married. His children had attended school in the UK and Canada but now home-school, and the eldest son says there is no comparison (the Catholic school in Canada was the "worst educational experience" of his life, he said). He is considering the priesthood or religious life now, and has the maturity for it, unlike other young men his age. Families at this parish home-schooled and the children were simply mature beyond their years. I could go on. As for Ascough, she probably has done, and is doing, more for the Church in Ireland than anyone on this forum will ever do. Unless you have something concrete to say about what happened at UCD, I don't think you should be hinting at anything -- certainly not anonymously on a forum. There absolutely is more to Catholicism in Ireland than the Ascoughs and Conroys -- there are others like them. I am glad to have discovered that there is a contingent of young, serious Catholics in Ireland -- they just don't waste time on forums, complaining about how everything is terrible. I believe I will continue my private correspondence with them, rather than spend any more time on this forum.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on May 16, 2024 16:03:45 GMT
If parents do not actually take steps to educate their children at home, then it can hardly be called home-schooling. If parents leave their children with the Lives of the Saints and call it home-schooling, it has nothing to do with the intellectual ability of the parents and everything to do with a lack of resolve. To be honest, I am sorry Mag Uidhir has chosen to leave the group over this disagreement. My opposition to home schooling is less a principled opposition as a conviction that the option is promoted as an unalloyed good which I don't believe it is; as a one sized fits all solution, which I also don't believe it is; and finally that it is presented as a single solution without any effort to examine other options. It's not just in this case that I am advancing scouting, for example, as a red herring, I have consistently raised this point and the proponents of home schooling have just as consistently failed to address it. I am not sure why, but it's in the unknown territory for most of them. There's no point in debating when you are going to argue from a pre-defined idea of home schooling which you don't outline. As long as home schooling is presented as something anyone can do, you are going to get parents who do the Lives of the Saints or something similar and nothing else and still call it homeschooling. I think our consensus here is that home schooling is fine until you hear of a disaster. I can point to the Burkes of Castlebar who have done brilliantly academically as a result of home schooling (they are evangelical), but if you look at their behavior in some of the litigious spats they get into, you wonder did they miss something. My own instinctive reaction is that the reason home schooling or alternative schooling does well and is so popular in the English-speaking world is because schooling is so below par here anyway. People know my opinion of upper management in the Department of Education in this country - that it's an organisation not fit for purpose. But as long as we compete well against the Yanks and the Brits, we're content. That's why I believe we need to look to continental models. BTW, if you are going to thrash Catholic schooling, you are thrashing Blessed Edmund Rice and Mother Nano Nagle and Mother Catherine McCauley and a host of other figures in Catholic education. It's great to hear the ideal set out, but this ideal is not attainable in practice in every circumstance. It is tragic, but it's reality. It's true that Catholic schools in Ireland are a mixed bag, but the point is that it is mixed. Most bishops have direct control of at least one secondary school in which they can lead the way. But I think you would find it very hard to get a Catholic bishop to commit in public to the position above. It's the way they should operate and the way some operate, but it's not the way they all operate. Because too many parents are going it alone. The glowing articles don't go into detail on this. I am skeptical of what I see as an endeavour which has it's origins in the United States. I don't believe this is the place for it. I cannot accept that. There are problems with universities, but they are a necessary evil and I believe these observations are very anglosphere centric. And I am not at all sure about the small number of Catholic liberal arts colleges. So our experiences are different. I have yet to see a single positive result of home schooling and I have seen plenty of negative results. Well, I know better than you what the individuals on this forum have done. Everyone here is active and most have achieved quite a lot. Miss Ascough's problem stems from the fact she broke a mandate in her capacity of President of the UCD SU. This was something she should have foreseen and either not have put herself forward for the position or resigned in advance of the moves against. I would have had respect for her in the latter circumstance. In point of fact, the current Labour Party leader Ivana Bacik was in a similar position in TCD SU many years ago. Obviously, I agree entirely with what the Trinity Union did with her. Though I agreed with Katie Ascough's position, I did not agree with the way she handled herself. Neither did I agree with her snarky comments on Aontú. Nor am I happy about some of the causes her family funds. To be honest, I find the name Ascough a total turn off. Libera nos, Domine - though at least the Conroys are more responsible from a political perspective. It's precisely because we aware that everything is terrible that we do act.
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