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TFP
Aug 8, 2019 21:24:21 GMT
Post by hibernicus on Aug 8, 2019 21:24:21 GMT
I came across the full text of Plinio's views on indigenism, but have not been able to find it again or I'd link it. What struck me as most revealing about it was a passage where he denounces land reform as contrary to divine teaching, which decrees a hierarchical social order, and as leading straight to communist oppression. If that were so, we should be giving back the land of Ireland to the descendants of the old landlords. After all, their families in many instances had it longer than the Brazilian landowners for whom Plinio is so concerned, and the methods by which their ancestors acquired it were probably very similar in Brazil and in Ireland. I really wonder how anyone with the smallest understanding of Irish history can sign up for TFP. Do they switch off their brains at the door? (St Thomas Aquinas on the limitations of property rights might make useful reading.)
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TFP
Aug 8, 2019 21:55:58 GMT
Post by Young Ireland on Aug 8, 2019 21:55:58 GMT
I came across the full text of Plinio's views on indigenism, but have not been able to find it again or I'd link it. What struck me as most revealing about it was a passage where he denounces land reform as contrary to divine teaching, which decrees a hierarchical social order, and as leading straight to communist oppression. If that were so, we should be giving back the land of Ireland to the descendants of the old landlords. After all, their families in many instances had it longer than the Brazilian landowners for whom Plinio is so concerned, and the methods by which their ancestors acquired it were probably very similar in Brazil and in Ireland. I really wonder how anyone with the smallest understanding of Irish history can sign up for TFP. Do they switch off their brains at the door? (St Thomas Aquinas on the limitations of property rights might make useful reading.) I wonder what Plinio thought about the universal desitination of goods? Or the Magnificat? Or the book of Amos? I suspect that TFP is as much about protecting the vested interests of the Brazilian upper classes as they are about defending Catholic orthodoxy.
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TFP
Aug 9, 2019 7:45:11 GMT
pugio likes this
Post by maolsheachlann on Aug 9, 2019 7:45:11 GMT
I came across the full text of Plinio's views on indigenism, but have not been able to find it again or I'd link it. What struck me as most revealing about it was a passage where he denounces land reform as contrary to divine teaching, which decrees a hierarchical social order, and as leading straight to communist oppression. If that were so, we should be giving back the land of Ireland to the descendants of the old landlords. After all, their families in many instances had it longer than the Brazilian landowners for whom Plinio is so concerned, and the methods by which their ancestors acquired it were probably very similar in Brazil and in Ireland. I really wonder how anyone with the smallest understanding of Irish history can sign up for TFP. Do they switch off their brains at the door? (St Thomas Aquinas on the limitations of property rights might make useful reading.) I wonder what Plinio thought about the universal desitination of goods? Or the Magnificat? Or the book of Amos? I suspect that TFP is as much about protecting the vested interests of the Brazilian upper classes as they are about defending Catholic orthodoxy. My experience is that virtually any point of view can be presented as Catholic orthodoxy, given the long history of the Faith, and the ability to quote-mine from Popes, saints and Councils. For instance, the way in which Quo Primum by Pius V is quoted by the more militant shade of Traditionalist. It then comes down to the apparently never-ending wrangles on the nature and limits of infallibility, or the requirements of docility. The temptation to identify Catholicism with a particular social philosophy, historical period, or culture, is rampant among Catholics, not only of the right but also of the left. The right's tendency to draw a straight line from any kind of social reform to communism is mirrored in the left's tendency to see any kind of particularism as incipient fascism.
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TFP
Aug 20, 2019 23:59:19 GMT
Post by hibernicus on Aug 20, 2019 23:59:19 GMT
I get the impression that in Plinio's case the reconquista of Iberia from the Moors is seen as the paradigm of Catholic Action. He often cites as a model the Battle of Covadonga, the first Christian victory over the Moors at a time when only a small portion of Northern Spain remained in Christian hands: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Covadonga This of course will not have the same resonance for someone who is not Spanish or Portuguese-speaking.
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TFP
Sept 21, 2019 21:05:32 GMT
Post by hibernicus on Sept 21, 2019 21:05:32 GMT
The more of Plinio's compositions I see, the more he strikes me as a paranoid narcissist - someone who sees himself as an exceptional being and obsessively fears being swamped and suffocated by the swinish multitude. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
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TFP
Sept 26, 2019 12:55:56 GMT
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Sept 26, 2019 12:55:56 GMT
I think Hibernicus has got Plinio right in this respect
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TFP
Jun 30, 2020 20:44:19 GMT
Post by hibernicus on Jun 30, 2020 20:44:19 GMT
I have come across a few statements from the TFP-linked Lepanto Institute recently in which they equate the Black Lives Matter protestors with Satan and his rebellion and hail the police and the civil authorities (or at least those of them who resist BLM, notably President Trump) as doing the work of God - it is recalled that St Michael is the patron saint of policemen. Now this seems to me an example of a reasonable point - Black Lives Matter do have all sorts of dodgy agendas, and the mass destruction of historic monuments (including statues of abolitionists, the wreckers not being able to tell the difference) and historic figures who committed vile crimes but also made great contributions to America and to human betterment reflects a sort of Maoist urge for absolute power through destruction. At the same time I am certainly not going to equate policemen shooting or beating an unarmed black to death (and it does happen, the George Floyd video speaks for itself) with St Michael. Where there are historic injustices, divine justice demands that they be remedied, and sacralising the status quo is as idolatrous as proclaiming the Revolution as the work of the Holy Spirit.
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TFP
Jun 30, 2020 22:15:13 GMT
Post by Young Ireland on Jun 30, 2020 22:15:13 GMT
I have come across a few statements from the TFP-linked Lepanto Institute recently in which they equate the Black Lives Matter protestors with Satan and his rebellion and hail the police and the civil authorities (or at least those of them who resist BLM, notably President Trump) as doing the work of God - it is recalled that St Michael is the patron saint of policemen. Now this seems to me an example of a reasonable point - Black Lives Matter do have all sorts of dodgy agendas, and the mass destruction of historic monuments (including statues of abolitionists, the wreckers not being able to tell the difference) and historic figures who committed vile crimes but also made great contributions to America and to human betterment reflects a sort of Maoist urge for absolute power through destruction. At the same time I am certainly not going to equate policemen shooting or beating an unarmed black to death (and it does happen, the George Floyd video speaks for itself) with St Michael. Where there are historic injustices, divine justice demands that they be remedied, and sacralising the status quo is as idolatrous as proclaiming the Revolution as the work of the Holy Spirit. I think that all this trouble and violence was easily avoidable if the issue of police brutality and Confederate statues had been settled earlier (by Obama as well as Trump; remember that the issue really began to come to light under his watch and truth be told he did nothing concrete to ease tensions apart from reassuring words). I get the impression that many white Americans are either unwilling or unable to acknowledge that racism remains a serious problem post-Civil Rights era - look at the amount of abuse Colin Kapernick (whatever you might think of him, and some of his other politics are indeed highly questionable) got for daring to kneel during the national anthem. Couple that with the extreme polarisation of American politics, where admitting that you opponent might have a point is considered to be a weakness (which again applies to both sides here) and the result is like puring petrol over a fire. I think John F. Kennedy's observation that those who make peaceful reform impossible make violent revolution inevitable is very relevant here. Re the Lepanto Insitute - while I'd imagine they would be ideologically similar to TFP, I haven't come across anything to suggest that they are directly related. Perhaps there's some detail I'm missing?
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TFP
Jul 7, 2020 15:20:11 GMT
via mobile
Post by annie on Jul 7, 2020 15:20:11 GMT
...look at the amount of abuse Colin Kapernick (whatever you might think of him, and some of his other politics are indeed highly questionable) got for daring to kneel during the national anthem. Couple that with the extreme polarisation of American politics, where admitting that you opponent might have a point is considered to be a weakness (which again applies to both sides here) and the result is like puring petrol over a fire. I wondered why their flag is held in such regard by Americans until I found this. It also explained to me why "taking the knee" or other insults to it is considered traitorous. The colonists (like ourselves) had a tough time under perfidious Albion. youtu.be/YaxGNQE5ZLA
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TFP
Jul 7, 2020 19:53:49 GMT
Post by hibernicus on Jul 7, 2020 19:53:49 GMT
I heard verbally that the Lepanto Institute is TFP, and some of the terminology I've seen on newsletters of theirs is reminiscent of TFP, but I don't have conclusive evidence.
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TFP
Jul 7, 2020 20:16:21 GMT
Post by hibernicus on Jul 7, 2020 20:16:21 GMT
The point about the US flag and the Founding Fathers etc is that they are supposed to be unifying civic symbols for a country that lacks many "natural" unifying features. In recent decades especially, there is a serious tension between this and the emphasis on rights to individual free expression, which have led the US Supreme Court to rule that flag-burning is a form of free speech protected by the US Constitution. There is a real tension between the belief in unifying civic symbols and the right to criticise or reject them in the light of the darker side of American history, and between forms of protest which call on the US to live up to its founding promise (for example, Thomas Jefferson was a truly monstrous hypocrite who treated his slaves abominably while lamenting at every opportunity how horrible slavery was and how much it contradicted the principles of human freedom set out at the Founding, yet black campaigners against slavery made use of what he said to call on the US to live up to his principles rather than down to his practice) and those which reject the US as evil from the beginning and call for it to be swept away. Colin Kaepernick's recent statement that 4th July is nothing but hypocrisy would be an example of the latter: www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/colin-kaepernick-hates-america-nfl/Talk about the British attack on Baltimore as uniquely heinous is a bit overdone. Both sides were about equally responsible for the War of 1812, and Canadians see it as their struggle to retain independence from the US and point out that the burning of Washington was retaliation for the Americans burning the Canadian capital at York (now Toronto). THE STAR SPANGLED banner wasn't officially declared the US national anthem until the 1930s and other songs have been suggested for that role before (and to a lesser extent after) that declaration. BTW there is an American "black national anthem" which is a very fine hymn as well as a nice tune: www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONgOH_tq7-Q -and I'd never heard of it till the present controversy!
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TFP
Jul 10, 2020 23:45:50 GMT
Post by hibernicus on Jul 10, 2020 23:45:50 GMT
Here's a critical 3-part series on Plinio and TFP from a website I came across recently. The site seems to have the general aim of defending Pope Francis from his critics and to do so, in part, by highlighting the loonier aspects of traditionalism/devotionalism. My overall impression is that their analyses of various looneyisms seems well documented, but that they are inclined to underestimate the extent to which the faithful are entitled to engage in reasoned criticism of the Pope on matters not concerning the deposit of faith (e.g., on the way the agreement with the People's Republic of China has been handled). Read around on the site and judge for yourselves. Their analysis of TFP (which focusses on what the author sees as the problematic aspects of TFP/Plinio ideology, rather than on the allegations about some of its past political activities) seems quite plausible to me - the personality cult of Plinio, absolutisation of Revolution and Counter-Revolution as irreconcilable opposites and the association of all that is good, beautiful and true with knightly elites I have come across. What is new to me is the alleged Marian apocalypticism based on a particular reading of St Louis de Montfort, and the idea that the "knights" of TFP look forward to fighting in a future Catholic Ragnarok (the "bagarre") to bring about an earthly millennium. It sounds plausible (and it must also be borne in mind that TFP fragmented after Plinio's death. so there are several successor groups which may have developed in different ways) but I would like to know a bit more. Read it for information and judge for yourselves: wherepeteris.com/tfp-ideology-part-one-the-revolution/wherepeteris.com/tfp-ideology-part-two-the-counter-revolution/wherepeteris.com/tfp-ideology-part-three-the-bagarre-and-the-reign-of-mary/
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TFP
Jul 13, 2020 20:03:04 GMT
Post by hibernicus on Jul 13, 2020 20:03:04 GMT
I must say the more I see of Plinio the less I like him. Here are a few examples: (1) Plinio believed in physiognomy (the idea that the character of an individual can be discerned from their facial features) and at the link below we have one of his articles claiming that the evils of Luther, Robespierre and Guevara are visible in their faces. (Two of the three images are death masks, which may distort the features.) tfpstudentaction.org/blog/three-faces-of-the-revolutionI don't find this convincing; it seems to me that the younger Luther and Robespierre actually had quite distinguished features, and Plinio seems to ignore the maxim that the devil can disguise himself as an angel of light. An old academic told me that when he was young and was arguing the claims of physiognomy with one of his seniors, he was silenced by the remark that the saintliest-looking face among Holbein's Tudor portraits was that of Richard Rich: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Rich,_1st_Baron_Rich#/media/File:Hans_Holbein_the_Younger_-_Sir_Richard_Rich,_later_1st_Baron_Rich_RL_12238.jpg That guileless-looking young man with the wide eyes perjured himself to bring about the executions of SS Thomas More and John Fisher, made a great deal of money out of the dissolution of the monasteries, tortured and persecuted Catholics or Protestants by turns as expediency dictated and died peacefully in his bed. (2)Here we have a meditation by Plinio on suffering. While some of his disciples have derived consolation from it, I find it shocking that he segues from the need to endure suffering in general, to citing himself as the most edifying example of such endurance that he can think of: www.traditioninaction.org/religious/c034rpSuffering.html(3) On this thread I mentioned allegations that there were links between TFP in Latin America and right-wing death squads. I don't know enough to assess this, but I must say that an ideology which divides the world between an all-embracingly demonic Revolution and an equally universal divinely-inspired Counter-Revolution and which calls on members to see themselves as a knightly elite fighting in an apocalyptic battle between Light and Darkness could very easily lend itself to a death-squad mentality. I must say that when I was a rather isolated adolescent seeing the world through Christ v.Communism and with an idealised view of the Middle Ages and the Church's history, I had a nasty case of malign narcissism such as I see in Plinio. (I don't say I was wrong about everything, but I had a bad spirit that could have led me down dangerous paths.)
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TFP
Jul 14, 2020 20:06:45 GMT
annie likes this
Post by hibernicus on Jul 14, 2020 20:06:45 GMT
Credit where credit is due - whatever my differences with TFP, I have to express respect for their members (identifiable by the golden lion badge) who took part in the counter-demonstrations in St Louis against BLM demonstrators demanding the removal of the statue of St Louis outside the city's art gallery. Some of the complaints about St Louis are justified (such as his persecution of Jews - I am sorry to say I have heard him cited approvingly by self-professed Catholic anti-semites) but he was on the whole a good and conscientious ruler and it's wrong that he should be written out of history - especially by a mob.
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TFP
Jul 24, 2020 20:51:40 GMT
Post by hibernicus on Jul 24, 2020 20:51:40 GMT
One point I should make is that some of the oddities of TFP may be partly explicable by the presence in Latin countries of a tradition of violent and aggressive anti-Catholicism or anti-clericalism, often embodied in particular political regimes. (This was not confined to communism BTW, self-proclaimed "Liberal" regimes could be just as bad.) Some people would like to see the same thing in Ireland, on a much bigger scale than already exists - on the Politics.ie thread linked below you can see the decapitation of statues in present-day America, and a photo of Spanish Civil War militiamen shooting at a Calvary statue, being held up for admiration)- politics.ie/threads/taking-down-statues-in-ireland.276710/page-20 In a society where Catholics - very likely including TFP members - find themselves having to defend churches against violent mobs who want to desecrate and destroy them, and to do so without responding violently to deliberate provocations bordering on the demonic, the idea of a divide between childen of darkness and of light has much more plausibility, but it's still spiritually dangerous.
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