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TFP
Mar 9, 2012 8:59:12 GMT
Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Mar 9, 2012 8:59:12 GMT
Marian Horvat's brother John Horvat is still active in TFP - I think he's the webmaster for 'America Needs Fatima' (this is a TFP brand - Britain Needs Fatima and Ireland Needs Fatima are from the same source).
I have heard reports that Marian Horvat and Atila Sinke Gumaraes left and others that they were kicked out.
Marian Horvat is a professor of medieval history somewhere - and I wonder what sort of academic she is.
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TFP
Mar 12, 2012 19:47:18 GMT
Post by hibernicus on Mar 12, 2012 19:47:18 GMT
If she's a professor of mediaeval history, I pity her students. She is promoting an alleged sixteenth-century Ecuadorean Marian apparition whose supposed messages include a detailed denunciation of the Freemasons by name (at a time when Freemasonry did not even exist) and a very detailed account of the career and murder of the nineteenth-century Ecuadorean President Gabriel Garcia Moreno (referring to a republic with a president, whereas at the time of the alleged apparition this form of government was virtually unknown in Christendom).
Now any competent hagiographer or historian would realise that their readers might suspect that such detailed predictions might have been fabricated after the event and would produce arguments defending their authenticity (e.g. by showing that they were made public before the events described). Horvat does not seem to have heard of the concept of source criticism (which is not a modernist novelty; it was pioneered by Cardinal Baronius, the famous sixteenth-century Church historian and disciple of St Philip Neri). A fine historian! PS - I am not saying that Our Lady cannot predict events hundreds of years before they happen - I am saying that the major recognised apparitions do not feature such detailed prophecies of historical events, and that the reference to the Freemasons by name, supposedly produced at a time when the Freemasons had not come into existence, is suspicious. Prophecies are usually accommodated to the understanding of their hearers, and unfamiliar terms get mangled in transmission. If the alleged prophecy had referred to "a secret brotherhood of evildoers" or some such language I might be a little bit less sceptical.
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TFP
Mar 14, 2012 17:44:03 GMT
Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Mar 14, 2012 17:44:03 GMT
Somehow, I think Professor Horvat belongs to mediaeval fantasy rather than mediaeval history.
I remember reading an article by her where she offered reasons why she believed the actress Katherine Hepburn may have sold her soul to the devil.
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TFP
Mar 14, 2012 21:27:54 GMT
Post by hibernicus on Mar 14, 2012 21:27:54 GMT
How nice it would have been to see Marian "Mother Teresa Was an Indifferentist Pagan" Horvat debating Christopher "Mother Teresa Was a Bigoted Christian Fanatic" Hitchens. TIA have denounced John Paul II's beatifications and canonisations en bloc. They specialise in innuendo, hinting at dreadful crimes while not pinning themselves to anything specific. I fisked a Guimaraes piece denouncing the prospect of JP II being beatified a while back - forget which thread it was on.
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TFP
Aug 12, 2013 22:47:56 GMT
Post by hibernicus on Aug 12, 2013 22:47:56 GMT
Over the last couple of months I have noticed quite a lot of different TFP members turning up at Sunday EF Masses in St Kevin's (identifiable by the red lion badge in their lapels). Have they got some sort of summer school going on?
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TFP
Aug 13, 2013 8:21:31 GMT
Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Aug 13, 2013 8:21:31 GMT
They probably are running their annual father-son camp again. This was usually in Roscrea Abbey with the Institute of Christ the King providing the sacraments.
I think that when TFP are in Ireland in force, they tend to bring their members to see as much of the country as possible, but they navigate around the availablity of the EF Mass. Limerick is the prefered venue (ICRSS); then Dublin, but I've seen them in Newry and at Fr David Jones' Masses and I know they've been up in Bruckless too. No objection to that - I think a lot of EF devotees should try to take in other venues. Many don't stray outside Dublin.
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TFP
Jun 21, 2014 18:40:10 GMT
annie likes this
Post by hibernicus on Jun 21, 2014 18:40:10 GMT
TFP seem to be having some sort of recruiting drive at present. This week's CATHOLIC HERALD and SPECTATOR have both got flyers from them which contain the image visible at the link below, denouncing egalitarianism and giving an address in Scotland for those who want to read more. If you don't want to click the link - there are two images. The upper one shows chessmen, with several pawns toppling a king, marked "Social Egalitarianism". The lower one shows a group of faceless humanoid dummies, one of which is coloured red and is painting the other dummies (which were originally blue) red. This is labelled "Total Egalitarianism". www.pliniocorreadeoliveira.info/TFP_Scotland_Egalitarianism01.jpg Now this image encapsulates what a lot of people find creepy about the TFP mindset. In the image of the chessmen, the king is depicted as a man with a crown on his head, but the pawns are not drawn from the same chess-set, which would presumably portray them as men-at-arms smaller than the king - they are the standard shape of a chess pawn, which is not really humanoid at all. Similarly, in the lower picture, the dummies are already all completely faceless and featureless even before the red paint is applied to them. There are real problems with some forms of egalitarianism (for example, it can lead to state absolutism and the destruction of intermediate associations, on the grounds that only as equal subordinates of Leviathan can we be truly equal - this is quite clearly latent in Fintan O'Toole's version of "republicanism" for example). But what these images used by TFP seem to be implying, intentionally or not, is that the lower orders are not really human at all - that only the king, only the elite, are truly human; that the mass of the people are not so many individuals formed in the likeness of God, but faceless zombies, and that the TFP aficionado is to pride himself as a being raised above the common herd. That's more like neoplatonism than Christianity. Give me St Alphonsus Liguori (whose great objective was precisely to awaken an interior faith among the poor) any day.
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TFP
Jun 21, 2014 19:29:54 GMT
annie likes this
Post by maolsheachlann on Jun 21, 2014 19:29:54 GMT
I get so sick of people dismissing the notion of equality because 'there is no equality in nature'. As far as I'm concerned, egalitarianism is not a denial of the differences in human ability, intellect, talent or character. Still less should it be a resentful rejection of all privilege, hereditary title, custom, ceremony or chivalry. Egalitarianism is simply a commitment to the idea that every human being is to be accorded equal respect as human beings, which is quite apart from whatever additional honour or special privileges they might deserve as monarchs, aristocrats, women, Knights of the Realm, priests, professors, etc. etc.
I accept that the concept of equality has been abused so horrendously in our time that it's not too surprising that conservatives turn against it. But every concept can be abused.
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TFP
Jun 23, 2014 14:53:21 GMT
Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Jun 23, 2014 14:53:21 GMT
TFP obviously have money to spend and this is scary. But I have seen their influence overseas. Now, I know decent people within the TFP and among their supporters, but this is not the point. The whole philosophy behind the TFP was formed in Cold War Brazil from the conservative movement there and one can see the type of usage that the Fatima message is subjected to, by and large.
The question asked is what is the point of a group of men living community life, without the commitment of religious consecration where their purpose, Catholic Action, only seems to amount to disseminating the Fatima message. Many traditionalists succumb to the temptation of worshipping the Middle Ages as an historical period. These don’t necessarily have a highly developed understanding of the same. They also buy into a neo-pagan understanding of a type of warrior caste. The International Third Position has rightly been lambasted in this regard; these seem to use Catholic vocabulary to mask a neo-pagan agenda. TFP are more subtle than these, but the intent is the same. To be honest, this group is absorbing the vulnerable. One point which ought not be underestimated is the extent to which the Institute of Christ the King is behind them. Might be a question of who is using who, but a lot of TFP members show up at ICRSS Masses.
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TFP
Jun 23, 2014 21:31:51 GMT
Post by hibernicus on Jun 23, 2014 21:31:51 GMT
BTW the "Irish Society for the Preservation of Christian Civilisation" which has been advertising its seminars and public Rosaries quite a bit in the CATHOLIC VOICE lately, seems to be TFP. I looked up a few TFP-related sites in connection with this discussion, and the terminology they use is distinctly reminiscent of those ads.
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TFP
Jun 23, 2014 21:58:11 GMT
Post by maolsheachlann on Jun 23, 2014 21:58:11 GMT
I had a look at their site. It seems pretty unobjectionable. Even the bit about the medieval order made a fair amount of sense to me:
"Clergy, nobility, and people. This trilogy [sic?] naturally brings to mind the representative assemblies that characterized many monarchies of the Middle Ages and the Ancien Régime: the Courts of Portugal and Spain, the Estates General of France, the Parliament of England, and so forth. In these assemblies, there was an authentic national representation that faithfully mirrored social organicity."
An idealized portrait, perhaps, but the basic point seems valid. There is something rather ruthless about meritocracy. But it does make me wonder-- how can they be so sure that the Established church will be Catholic? Especially given the Irish experience?
I would ask where they find this in the social doctrine of the Church except I'm sure they could quote encylicals by Pope Pius IX at me.
A look at the photos makes me ask....are these the people in well-pressed blazers, ties and slacks who turn up to all the Iona Institute talks?
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TFP
Oct 26, 2018 20:13:35 GMT
Post by hibernicus on Oct 26, 2018 20:13:35 GMT
John Horvat of TFP on the pagan and demonic elements of present-day Halloween celebrations. Many of his points are accurate (I had a really unpleasant sight of a young woman wearing devil horns and elaborate zombie makeup in Nassau Street today - and it still isn't Halloween until Tuesday) but when he says that mediaeval popular festivals were never bawdy or profane he shows how little he knows about mediaeval popular festivals. Norbert Elias's THE CIVILISING PROCESS and ALL of Chaucer's CANTERBURY TALES are recommended reading for people who can't tell the difference between the Middle Ages and a Pre-Raphaelite painting. www.crisismagazine.com/2018/can-halloween-be-christianized-again
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TFP
Jun 20, 2019 21:29:03 GMT
Post by hibernicus on Jun 20, 2019 21:29:03 GMT
The blogpost below,from a blog which strikes me as EVER SO SLIGHTLY SHOUTY cites a critique by a Chilean TFP writer of the upcoming Amazonia Synod for (among other things) idealising tribal life and promoting neopaganism. abyssum.org/2019/06/19/pan-amazonian-synod-instrumentum-laboris-working-document-for-the-upcoming-synod-of-bishops-on-the-amazon-region-represents-a-total-opening-of-the-gates-of-the-magisterium-to-indian-theology-and-eco/The Chilean has the following quote from Plinio Correa de Oliveira (the "structuralism" denounced is presumably that of the anthropologist Claude Levi-Strauss): EXTRACT This phrase reminds us of Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira’s denunciation, in 1976, that indigenous tribalism was a new and even more radical stage of the Anarchist Revolution: “Structuralists see tribal life as an illusory synthesis between the apex of individual freedom and consensual collectivism, in which the latter ends up devouring freedom. According to structuralism, in this collectivism the various ‘I’s and individual persons, with their thought, will, sensibility and ways of being, characteristic and discrepant, are merged and dissolved in the collective personality of the tribe, which generates an intensely common thinking, will, and way of being.” The Instrumentum laboris is nothing short of an invitation for humanity to take a fatal step towards the final abyss of the anti-Christian Revolution. END Now there is indeed a tendency for certain types of commentator to idealise tribal primitivism and promote pantheist neopaganism. What worries me in this context is that Plinio was writing under a military dictatorship (which he supported) which regarded the rapid development of Amazonia as a key to achieving national greatness and solving Brazil's social problems, and that this in practice often involved a highly brutal and exploitative form of extractive capitalism involving extreme violence against the indigenous peoples and their customary rights. At best, Plinio's comments are oblivious to this process; at worst he may be actively encouraging it, like a nineteenth-century political economist explaining that the Highland Clearances were for the Highlanders' own good. Perhaps this suspicion of mine is unjust to Plinio, but I must say I would like to know an awful lot more about the context in which he made that statement. I might add that that remark about tribalism absorbing the individual sounds uncomfortably like Julius Evola's view that most people have only the most vestigial souls and when they die are absorbed back into the mud. Again, I hope I am doing Plinio an injustice.
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TFP
Jun 20, 2019 21:39:41 GMT
Post by Young Ireland on Jun 20, 2019 21:39:41 GMT
The blogpost below,from a blog which strikes me as EVER SO SLIGHTLY SHOUTY cites a critique by a Chilean TFP writer of the upcoming Amazonia Synod for (among other things) idealising tribal life and promoting neopaganism. abyssum.org/2019/06/19/pan-amazonian-synod-instrumentum-laboris-working-document-for-the-upcoming-synod-of-bishops-on-the-amazon-region-represents-a-total-opening-of-the-gates-of-the-magisterium-to-indian-theology-and-eco/The Chilean has the following quote from Plinio Correa de Oliveira (the "structuralism" denounced is presumably that of the anthropologist Claude Levi-Strauss): EXTRACT This phrase reminds us of Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira’s denunciation, in 1976, that indigenous tribalism was a new and even more radical stage of the Anarchist Revolution: “Structuralists see tribal life as an illusory synthesis between the apex of individual freedom and consensual collectivism, in which the latter ends up devouring freedom. According to structuralism, in this collectivism the various ‘I’s and individual persons, with their thought, will, sensibility and ways of being, characteristic and discrepant, are merged and dissolved in the collective personality of the tribe, which generates an intensely common thinking, will, and way of being.” The Instrumentum laboris is nothing short of an invitation for humanity to take a fatal step towards the final abyss of the anti-Christian Revolution. END Now there is indeed a tendency for certain types of commentator to idealise tribal primitivism and promote pantheist neopaganism. What worries me in this context is that Plinio was writing under a military dictatorship (which he supported) which regarded the rapid development of Amazonia as a key to achieving national greatness and solving Brazil's social problems, and that this in practice often involved a highly brutal and exploitative form of extractive capitalism involving extreme violence against the indigenous peoples and their customary rights. At best, Plinio's comments are oblivious to this process; at worst he may be actively encouraging it, like a nineteenth-century political economist explaining that the Highland Clearances were for the Highlanders' own good. Perhaps this suspicion of mine is unjust to Plinio, but I must say I would like to know an awful lot more about the context in which he made that statement. I might add that that remark about tribalism absorbing the individual sounds uncomfortably like Julius Evola's view that most people have only the most vestigial souls and when they die are absorbed back into the mud. Again, I hope I am doing Plinio an injustice. I get the impression that Plinio here is describing what he sees as the structuralist view of tribalism as opposed to advocating that view himself.
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TFP
Jun 23, 2019 1:15:43 GMT
Post by hibernicus on Jun 23, 2019 1:15:43 GMT
I'm not saying that he is advocating the structuralist view of tribalism - quite the opposite. I am expressing concern that his criticism of the structuralist view of tribalism (and some of his points, such as the tendency of structuralism to downplay human agency and treat all forms of analysis/classification as arbitrary, are legitimate) may in practice amount to supporting the exploitation and dispossession of tribal peoples. Apparently Plinio wrote a book on the subject in 1977. It seems TFP are mounting an organised campaign against the Amazonian Synod; here we see a Peruvian TFP spokesman addressing Lifesite, just as a Chilean TFP was cited in the earlier link I gave. To make things clear - I suspect some of their concerns are valid, but I'm worried about the underlying political agenda. I'm also a bit worried about what the fear of individuality being dissolved in the mob means in the Latin American context, given the extreme social inequality of these societies (which was a good deal worse in 1977). www.lifesitenews.com/news/peruvian-expert-in-liberation-theology-reveals-scheme-behind-the-amazon-synod
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