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Post by guillaume on Feb 23, 2009 0:07:36 GMT
The "holy" Ireland, that France and the UK thought about, and praised about, is it dead ? Seems though. Ireland is now completely corrupted. Ireland had became a country where money matters the most. While dealing with money is not That bad, Ireland had flourished from the Celtic Tiger, with the help of the EU and the USA. Everyday now, the news show us corruption matters from the institutional financial corporations, and recently from the EX- Irish prime minister himself, who had no choice but to resign because of this kind of accusation. Poor Brian Cowen is dealing with it. No Hope. Not only he has to deal with the NO vote (to Lisbon), but now he has to deal with the awful corruption which touches Ireland. Is Ireland "holy" ? anymore, no. Guys, from foreign country, Ireland STILL got the fine reputation of being holy. But I know it is not. So Question : How would we try to help Ireland to be as holy at its reputation seems to be ?
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Post by hazelireland on Feb 23, 2009 8:20:13 GMT
Considering the word holy is a completley arbitrary and subjective word you will really need to have to define exactly what it is you are asking when using it. To me, you could be asking any one of at least 10 questions and thats before I put even the slightest modicum of thought into it.
Maybe if you clarify?
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Post by Harris on Feb 23, 2009 10:56:45 GMT
The "holy" Ireland, that France and the UK thought about, and praised about, is it dead ? Seems though. Ireland is now completely corrupted. Ireland had became a country where money matters the most. While dealing with money is not That bad, Ireland had flourished from the Celtic Tiger, with the help of the EU and the USA. Everyday now, the news show us corruption matters from the institutional financial corporations, and recently from the EX- Irish prime minister himself, who had no choice but to resign because of this kind of accusation. Poor Brian Cowen is dealing with it. No Hope. Not only he has to deal with the NO vote (to Lisbon), but now he has to deal with the awful corruption which touches Ireland. Is Ireland "holy" ? anymore, no. Guys, from foreign country, Ireland STILL got the fine reputation of being holy. But I know it is not. So Question : How would we try to help Ireland to be as holy at its reputation seems to be ? According to some definitions, objects are often considered 'holy' or 'sacred' if used for spiritual purposes, such as the worship or service of gods. I'm not sure any of the alleged corruptions within the Government really enter the above sphere.
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Post by hibernicus on Feb 23, 2009 11:04:09 GMT
One way of looking at it would be to discuss whether Ireland was ever as "holy" as it claimed to be. It can be argued both ways. AGAINST: Irish Catholic-nationalist commentators tended to portray a very idelaised portrait of Irish virtue and friendliness which glossed over the many cruelties which are to be found in a peasant (or an aspiring middle-class society), something like Pat McCabe's THE BUTCHER BOY depicts an impoverished and generally miserable protagonist in 1950s small-town Ireland driven to homicidal madness by his inability to reconcile the idealised kitsch image of Ireland he has acquired from popular culture with the alcoholism, class discrimination, clerical abuse &C he has experienced. The devil's advocate would also point out that many of the numerous clerical and religious vocatiosn of the past were the product of parents' desire to dispose of surplus children, that Church-run charitable institutions were often cruel and abusive etc. FOR - Irish religious observance until fairly recently was quite remarkably high and I don't think this can be explained purely in sociological terms. Even commentators like Tom Garvin who think it was a bad thing coment ont he widespread sense of the reality and nearness of thesupernatural found in Irish socity up unitl a few decades ago. Similarly, the teaching and charitable work of religious personnel often involved degrees of self-sacrifice which can't be explained purely in terms of clerical lust for power as is often done nowadays (cf John Horgan's memory of how Noel Browne was profoundly impressed by certain religious who spent their lives caring for the severely mentally handicapped without thought of reward or even gratitude, or the remarks by the commenters in Diarmuid Ferriter's WHAT IF? book - and Ferriter certainly can't be accused of undue philo-Catholicism) of the zeal and charisma of Frank Duff. Part of the trouble is that this is being measured by different measuring-rods. Someone who thinks sexual promiscuity is good for its own sake (as a means of self-expression/exploration) will find it difficult to establish common ground for discussion with anyone who believes in chastity, eb they Catholic, Protestant or classical republican.
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Post by Michael O'Donovan on Feb 23, 2009 19:41:55 GMT
Question : How would we try to help Ireland to be as holy as its reputation seems to be? I think Hibernicus has analysed it excellently (as always). The reputation for "holiness" came mainly from a high level of public religious observance in what was a fairly homogeneous society where few people had many material possessions or expected to have them. Those days are gone and can never be brought back. So it's down to whatever apostolic actions any of us can take at a personal level or acting in groups.
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Post by Hemingway on Feb 26, 2009 9:29:01 GMT
Unholy is a term that someone from a faith background may use to describe modern day Ireland. I would merely state that Ireland has changed. Whether we think its changed for the better or worse is a matter of opinion. Certainly in general we are better off financially than we were in the 1950's for instance but we have probably suffered in other areas. For instance Formula 1 isnt as exciting as it was in the 70's and 80's.......
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Post by hibernicus on Feb 26, 2009 11:22:27 GMT
A better way of putting it might be "Is nothing sacred in Ireland now?" and "Should anything be sacred in Ireland"? I think the differences between the answers our Catholic and atheist posters would give to these (particulalrly no.2) pretty much sum up the issue.
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