|
Post by hazelireland on Nov 26, 2008 9:26:59 GMT
An interesting ruling from the US there recently. The US 6th Circut Court has handed out a rather landmark decision. I wonder if it will be used as a precedent in the rest of the US and then in Ireland. Victims of abuse and people with other complaints can now directly sue the Vatican. This is the first time a court at this level has acknowledged the Vatican could be liable for the negligence. It heralds a crack in the barrier of immunity that the Vatican has built up around itself in cases of such complaints. A welcome step forward I think. Full story here: online.wsj.com/article/SB122756420187954231.html
|
|
|
Post by Harris on Nov 26, 2008 14:57:48 GMT
An interesting ruling from the US there recently. The US 6th Circut Court has handed out a rather landmark decision. I wonder if it will be used as a precedent in the rest of the US and then in Ireland. Victims of abuse and people with other complaints can now directly sue the Vatican. This is the first time a court at this level has acknowledged the Vatican could be liable for the negligence. It heralds a crack in the barrier of immunity that the Vatican has built up around itself in cases of such complaints. A welcome step forward I think. Full story here: online.wsj.com/article/SB122756420187954231.htmlI wonder where this will lead to? Could be turbulant times ahead for all involved.
|
|
|
Post by hazelireland on Nov 27, 2008 8:35:06 GMT
I do not know. It is hard to say. Its a crack in their wall but by no means a tearing down of that wall. They still declare themselves to be a sovereign state and hence immune to being prosecuted under US law.
|
|
|
Post by noel c on Jan 8, 2009 21:09:12 GMT
Forget about being Catholic. Be a Christian! A Christian is a follower of Christ. Christ says to forgive your brother 7 times 7 times. Do not sue......what benefit will sueing ( cash compensation ) be to you? If you have unfortunately been abused, pray to Jesus, your way, to help you forgive those who abused you. Be forgiving of those who caused you great stress and do it quietly while praying in your room or where ever the thought of what happened comes back to haunt you. All you have to say is ''Jesus help me'' and he will know what you need and He will help you because you believe in Him. If your faith is weak ask Him to forgive you in your weakness and I tell you it will be done and you will know that you are close to him. We all are close to Him and so much so that it can be scary. Why? Because we suddenly realise that there is a GOD! And He answered us! Believe me I know. I am a lapsed Catholic trying to be a Christian. God loves all of us, wether we are Muslim,Christian,Hindu,Jew or whatever. We all were given a consience by none other than God. We all have the same promise of Paradise. GOD does not discriminate. Try your best to live by it and God will always be on your side. Do not dispare if you fail at times. God see your efforts. You know what is right and what is wrong. You don't need anyone to tell you! Love each other and only harm each other as you would like to be harmed yourself, and God will retain his love for you and forgive your failings. ....................I believe.
|
|
|
Post by hazelireland on Jan 9, 2009 8:08:55 GMT
Not exactly on topic but thanks for that.
Actually as a follow up for this thread I see the Vatican has declared itself seperate from Italian law now as well.
|
|
|
Post by Harris on Jan 9, 2009 9:13:58 GMT
"Do not sue......what benefit will sueing ( cash compensation ) be to you?"
With all due respect, the perpetrators of such crimes as you are alluding to have to be held accountable in law where the statute of limitations is still relevant and so must the people who aided the perpetrators in their activities.
Maybe it would be an Idea for a section of people who receive compensation from the church as a result of abuse donate it to either the Rape Crisis Centre or a Children’s Charity. At least that way the money is going to an associated charity and donating to charities such as the aforementioned is something the Catholic Church does frequently in any case.
Its all very well to forgive as Jesus taught in the bible, but the law of the land must be obeyed also and a firm marker set down to show that such deplorable actions will not only be punished by God but by society also.
|
|
|
Post by hibernicus on Jan 9, 2009 15:41:06 GMT
The point about the Vatican and Italian law refers only to the Vatican State (which is an internationally recognised sovereign entity) no longer automatically adopting Italian law as its own. (I imagine this exists to some extent already; the Vatican has presumably not adopted the Italian laws on divorce, abortion etc). It doesn't apply to the Church as a whole in Italy, or the Italian hierarchy. It is somewhat different from the American decision which basically raises the question of whaether the Catholic Church as a whole internationally should be held liable for actions committed by its members, or whether redress is limited to individual bishops/dioceses (and possibly to national episcopal conferences). By the way, this is not so simple as it may appear. In theory the Church internationally is more like a feudal entity than a modern sovereign state; every bishop is supposed to be a sort of mini-sovereign within his diocese (and every parish priest within his parish) and the Vatican's oversight is pretty remote because it would not be possible to run such a big body on the basis of constant oversight from Rome. (John Allen's book ALL THE POPE'S MEN has a good discussion of this.) This has been muddied a bit because of (a) the tendency to increase centralised papal authority over the last two centuries, and the post-Vatican II reaction against this (b) the increasing influence of managerialism in the post-Vatican II church which has had the effect of increasing the authority of bishops over their parish priests, cf Archbishop Martin's recent "reforms"; papal authority over bishops has increased in some ways (e.g. the compulsory retirement age) and diminished in others. In general the Vatican bureaucracy tends to start from the assumption that the bishop must be presumed to be right until proven otherwise (partly because church law is based not on Anglo-American common law; it's a Roman/civil law system which places much more emphasis on the discretionary power of the sovereign). This is one reason why it has always been notoriously difficult to appeal against your bishop to Rome. The assumption that Rome knows everything that goes on is a mistake.
|
|
|
Post by hazelireland on Mar 6, 2009 8:04:47 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Michael O'Donovan on Mar 8, 2009 20:40:44 GMT
It's a legal issue really and Hibernicus has explained it very clearly. It is more likely that the final legal determination will be that liability is at the level of the diocese and not with the Church as a whole, which is not a legal entity.
Don't assume that the Catholic members here think that dioceses and abusing priests should escape liability for the abuse or the cover-ups. What happened was shameful. The victims of sexual abuse should get generous compensation, not that money can make up for the harm many of them are still suffering.
My only concern would be that the kind of mad money, out of all possible proportion to the harm done, that American courts are inclined to give in damages could leave some dioceses unable to provide the kind of social services that a lot of poor and vulnerable people rely on.
|
|