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Post by guillaume on Sept 29, 2008 19:23:11 GMT
The MP SP had recently passed his first anniversary (14 sept). And what happened in Ireland regarding this ? Did the TLM flourish in "every parish" as Card Castrillon de Hoyos wished ? Do we have a regular Sunday mass every week in all 32 counties ? Did people care ? Certainly not. Only the mass in Dublin is the most reverent. All the other county do not have it. Privates masses or FSSPX masses only. That's it. Why ? Is it the bishops fault ? the priests? the faithfull ? I have nothing against the NOM, as it is the mass the Pope celebrate. I am not anti NOM, as some tradis are completely against. But I wonder why the beautiful and reverent liturgy, the liturgy of the saints is not celebrated in Ireland, catholic country indeed. Lack of formation for the priests maybe ? lack of motivation ? Should we beg for an ED (ecclesia dei) community to come here to Ireland and to teach the priest ? The FSSP ? The IGS (institute of good shepper), Institute of Christ the King ? The Papa Stronsay Redemptorists ? I do know. But - at the moment - the proper application of the MP, dispite some "stable groups" around the country, seem to be, in Ireland, a total failure.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Oct 20, 2008 14:02:02 GMT
Well the first thing Guillaume can do is to educate himself about what is going on, which he could do by reading some of the other posts on the forum, notably the diocesan histories which I put a lot of work into posting. Don't give me the line that Dublin is the only place where things are happing - that isn't true, Guillaume. Before the Motu Proprio, we had - Daily - Mass in Islandeady, Co Mayo (Tuam) Weekly - Mass in High St, Dublin (Dublin) and Bruckless, Co Donegal (Raphoe) (Both every Sunday) Monthly - Mass in Limerick City (Limerick) (one Sunday a month); Cork City (Cork & Ross) and University Church, Dublin (Dublin) (both First Saturday); Golan, Co Donegal (Raphoe - 1st Friday) Private - Daily in Wexford (Ferns) and on Sundays in Rathduff (Killala). That was then. Now, it is more like this: Daily - Islandeady, Co Mayo (Tuam); Harrington St (Dublin) Weekly - Bruckless, Co Donegal (Raphoe - Sundays); Newtownmountkennedy, Co Wicklow (Dublin - and independent of the feted chaplaincy) Monthly: Cork City (Cork & Ross - 3rd Sunday and 1st Saturday); Limerick City (Limerick - 1 Sunday a month); Newbridge (Kildare & Leighlin - 2nd Sunday); Tralee (Kerry - 3rd Sunday); Belfast (Down & Connor - 1st Saturday); University Church (Dublin - 1st Saturday); Golan, Co Donegal (Raphoe - 1st Friday); Glengoole, Co Tipperary (Cashel & Emly - 1st Thursday). Private - Daily: Wexford (Ferns); Duleek, Co Meath (Meath). Weekly: Rathduff, Co Mayo (Killala - Sundays); Macroom, Co Cork (Cloyne - Mondays). Guillaume missed all that when looking for references to the Motu Proprio on the LMSI website. Perhaps he missed that the LMSI are more into doing the job than talking about it - because the same website also details frequent Masses in places not listed. Guillaume also missed that the Mass in Limerick is in the hands of the Institute of Christ the King and the reason is that it is only one Sunday in the month and not every Sunday is that the Institute has so much of a demand on its priests that it cannot commit a priest to Ireland yet - but they have promised to do so when one is available. The most recent of the above Masses to be instituted is the one in Newbridge which is in the care of the Priestly Fraternity of St Peter. This is on an experimental basis to see if there is a demand for an FSSP apostolate in Kildare (and there is some local opposition - from trads or a trad who should know better - see one of Monkeyman's recent posts from the Curragh of Kildare). So, you see Guillaume - there is stuff going on. You are uninformed? Drop a line to the LMSI and you can get on their mailing list, but the miserable so-and-sos in that outfit might ask you to pay a subscription
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Post by guillaume on Oct 20, 2008 14:51:52 GMT
Dear alaisdir, I am glad you are back. I am pleased to discuss those issues in this forum, than other whatever neo-pseudo-metaphysic stuff with atheists. Regarding your post on the TLM in Ireland, i do appreciate your work and I learnt a lot since I read it a good while ago. However I do not share your optimism regarding the application of the MP in this country (and worldwide). If a person is a Trad, this person will be very frustrated and dissapointed regarding his attendance to the TLM in Ireland, above all on Sunday. Do not think I just write about it here, and do nothing. I did made a first step in the county I live, and since the Priest who was more or less willing to celebrate (an old priest in his late.... 80s) didn't show any sign. I do not trust some diocesan priest to celebrate the TLM, according to the way they celebrate the NOM.... ! This is also an issue, dear ami. The MP concerns the diocesan priests and not the ED or SSPX priests. If a Priest celebrate the NOM the way we know and we reject, how come they would celebrate the TLM properly ? I do not know the mission of the LMSI. Is it to encourage the TLM to be propagate in Ireland ? to encourage priests ? or is it just to mention the different TLM occurring in this country ?
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Post by eircomnet on Oct 20, 2008 18:10:48 GMT
Guillaume, I think the only thing one can do is, if it's possible, get some support from others preferably in the same parish and formally make a request to the parish priest- in other words proceed along the path laid out in the Motu Proprio. It would be helpful to have a local group set up and to have requests submitted formally in writing as well as verbally. It's almost impossible to do a solo run.
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Post by cpm on Oct 20, 2008 18:32:08 GMT
Guillame, I totally agree with what you said about having catholic discussions again, after all this is the Irish CATHOLICS Forum! In Nomine Christi
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Post by monkeyman on Oct 20, 2008 20:00:40 GMT
Dear alaisdir, I am glad you are back. I am pleased to discuss those issues in this forum, than other whatever neo-pseudo-metaphysic stuff with atheists. Regarding your post on the TLM in Ireland, i do appreciate your work and I learnt a lot since I read it a good while ago. However I do not share your optimism regarding the application of the MP in this country (and worldwide). If a person is a Trad, this person will be very frustrated and dissapointed regarding his attendance to the TLM in Ireland, above all on Sunday. Do not think I just write about it here, and do nothing. I did made a first step in the county I live, and since the Priest who was more or less willing to celebrate (an old priest in his late.... 80s) didn't show any sign. I do not trust some diocesan priest to celebrate the TLM, according to the way they celebrate the NOM.... ! This is also an issue, dear ami. The MP concerns the diocesan priests and not the ED or SSPX priests. If a Priest celebrate the NOM the way we know and we reject, how come they would celebrate the TLM properly ? I do not know the mission of the LMSI. Is it to encourage the TLM to be propagate in Ireland ? to encourage priests ? or is it just to mention the different TLM occurring in this country ? Guillaume, I think what Alaisdir is saying is that really there is no other show in town when it comes to promoting the Latin Mass and quite frankly I agree with him. I know many members of the LMSI and know that they personally run the society out of their own pockets as there is only a shoe-string of a budget. People in this country no-longer give to worthy causes like the LMSI. At this stage next to nothing in this country bar Harrington St happens without the LMSI being involved in some way. Even the new chaplain appointed to St Patricks Academy was brought about through the LMSI, and not so long ago they helped train some 18 priests to say the Old Mass. Don't be pessimistic Guillaume you were spoilt in France but this is not France. Be optimistic and hopeful-the finishing line is in sight!!
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Post by monkeyman on Oct 20, 2008 20:03:35 GMT
Now...I'm off to have a banana
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Post by guillaume on Oct 21, 2008 8:14:18 GMT
Guillaume, I think the only thing one can do is, if it's possible, get some support from others preferably in the same parish and formally make a request to the parish priest- in other words proceed along the path laid out in the Motu Proprio. It would be helpful to have a local group set up and to have requests submitted formally in writing as well as verbally. It's almost impossible to do a solo run. The "stable groups", we have some. Many even. They do not make a large publicity, but they do exist ! The problem is the priest. I reckon many of them, do not bother to learn or even try to learn how to celebrate the holy sacrifice of the mass according to the old form. They are satisfied with the NOM, they can do whatever they want within the NOM, and unfortunately, disguise the real meaning of the mass. They abuse of the liberty the NOM is offering to them and consequently are losing the sense of sacred. When I asked the Bishop of Fern for a priest to celebrate the MP, he sent me to a 82 old (or something) priest who doesn't seem to have a clue of what he was willing to do. It's a joke. The bishop and most of the bishops of Ireland could not give a damn about the MP. Their wish is to bury it as soon as possible. Poor souls ! They do not know what they are doing...
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Post by guillaume on Oct 21, 2008 8:19:12 GMT
Guillame, I totally agree with what you said about having catholic discussions again, after all this is the Irish CATHOLICS Forum! In Nomine Christi ;D ;D ;D I am glad to hear that from the Moderator ! hey, it is up to you to make it slightly more open to catholics and more closed to the atheists ! Atheists will say that I am not tolerant with them. And, for once, they will be damn right ! ;D
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Post by Beinidict Ó Niaidh on Oct 22, 2008 8:55:28 GMT
Yes, it is good to have a Catholic discussion.
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Post by Beinidict Ó Niaidh on Oct 22, 2008 9:09:24 GMT
Guillaume, I think the only thing one can do is, if it's possible, get some support from others preferably in the same parish and formally make a request to the parish priest- in other words proceed along the path laid out in the Motu Proprio. It would be helpful to have a local group set up and to have requests submitted formally in writing as well as verbally. It's almost impossible to do a solo run. Solo runs are often quite a bad idea.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Oct 22, 2008 9:45:15 GMT
Dear alaisdir, I am glad you are back. I am pleased to discuss those issues in this forum, than other whatever neo-pseudo-metaphysic stuff with atheists. Regarding your post on the TLM in Ireland, i do appreciate your work and I learnt a lot since I read it a good while ago. However I do not share your optimism regarding the application of the MP in this country (and worldwide). If a person is a Trad, this person will be very frustrated and dissapointed regarding his attendance to the TLM in Ireland, above all on Sunday. Do not think I just write about it here, and do nothing. I did made a first step in the county I live, and since the Priest who was more or less willing to celebrate (an old priest in his late.... 80s) didn't show any sign. I do not trust some diocesan priest to celebrate the TLM, according to the way they celebrate the NOM.... ! This is also an issue, dear ami. The MP concerns the diocesan priests and not the ED or SSPX priests. If a Priest celebrate the NOM the way we know and we reject, how come they would celebrate the TLM properly ? I do not know the mission of the LMSI. Is it to encourage the TLM to be propagate in Ireland ? to encourage priests ? or is it just to mention the different TLM occurring in this country ? Guillaume, This isn't about optimism or pessimissm, it is about accuracy. I am personally pessimistic, not optimistic. I personally hate the exaggerating of the successes of trads worldwide. You are doing the opposite - you are understating it. In the post I replied to, you had said that Dublin was the only thing that happened since the Motu Proprio - I showed that there had been developments in Cork, Kerry, Tipperary, Wicklow, Kildare and Belfast as well. You called for the coming of one of the ED communities to Ireland - I pointed out that the Institute of Christ the King were already committed to an apostolate in Limerick and the FSSP had begun work in Newbridge, Co Kildare. Now, you would have a point, and at that a major point, if you asked why all the many monthly Masses are not weekly Masses. In regard to priests and their training, as Monkeyman pointed out, the only show operating is the LMSI. There was a course in Donegal in August; there is another planned for Cork in the New Year and in Galway later in the year. This doesn't come for nothing. I know that LMSI officers pick up abuse from two fronts - rad trads on one hand and diocesan officials on the other. There is a wider problem in Ireland which I have considered. Most of what is happening in Ireland in a traddy way is driven by laity. Dublin is an exception because the initiative came from the Archbishop. Irish laity, in particular trad-oriented laity, I think are suspicious of lay initiatives. What does everyone think?
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Oct 22, 2008 9:46:13 GMT
Guillaume, I think the only thing one can do is, if it's possible, get some support from others preferably in the same parish and formally make a request to the parish priest- in other words proceed along the path laid out in the Motu Proprio. It would be helpful to have a local group set up and to have requests submitted formally in writing as well as verbally. It's almost impossible to do a solo run. This is accurate in view of the motu proprio - but it reminds me of one of the three weaknesses in the traditional movement in Ireland. The trad movement in Ireland have been plagued by the following: 1. The SSPX in Ireland have been weak since at least the transfer of Fr Emerson in 1987 and the fact they never assigned any of their three Irish priests here indicate a lack of evangelical zeal towards this country. Consequently, they are no threat. 2. The conversation between the late Bishop Ó Súilleabháin of Kerry and Cardinal Innocenti when the latter was President of the Ecclesia Dei Commission. The latter told the bishop Rome would not impose the trad Mass on a diocese. 3 - This one is pertinent to your post. The egomania of a lot of trads. A number of Masses in Ireland were established and disappeared. I can number Derry and the Sunday Mass in Belfast. This is because they were directed by powerful lay people who achieved them, but once they were achieved, would not work with anyone else to perpetuate or expand them. In these cases the Masses disappeared and experience in both cities illustrate it is more difficult to re-establish something which lapsed than to achieve something new. A similar ego-related struggle threatens the survival of the FSSP apostolate in Kildare, which Kildare resident Monkeyman noted elsewhere. The split between EDI and the LMSI was based on another particular ego within the former organisation, which is why it has 4 Masses a year and the other has almost twenty times that. There are more. So, if the LMSI has a raison d'etre it is to give campaigning for the TLM a context other than ego and what makes it different is that if the case that the survival or gaining of a TLM is at stake it will confront egoes. This does lead to fraction - I know. It also means that traditional Masses in Ireland are no longer fading into oblivion the way that used to happen and the picture is now one of net improvement, even if it is slower than we would like.
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Post by Askel McThurkill on Oct 23, 2008 13:26:03 GMT
Yeah, Al, there's a lot of trad egomania. Ye wouldn't be another one yerself, would ye?
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Oct 29, 2008 11:27:33 GMT
;D ;D ;D I am glad to hear that from the Moderator ! hey, it is up to you to make it slightly more open to catholics and more closed to the atheists ! Atheists will say that I am not tolerant with them. And, for once, they will be damn right ! ;D You would make a great anchor man on Fox News. Speaking as someone who generally opposes Guillaume's interventions, let me say this. Hemingway, if you can't contribute to this debate yourself, insults towards the protagonists are not welcome.
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