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Post by Michael O'Donovan on Jul 31, 2008 18:16:54 GMT
Would I be right in thinking that you are not altogether delighted by all of the Vatican II innovations? I think most of us here would have the same point of view, generally, but we would not reject the whole thing. This is mostly a Traditionalist board, but not SSPX and certainly not sedevacantist. Please tell us more about your analysis. Dear Moderator, no offence, but I do not see why some persons like - you know who, the big bird.... - are allowed to spread their evil propaganda, and why not SPPX Willy, it was never my wish to ban SSPX posters or even to discourage them. On the contrary I would be delighted to see SSPX supporters, other Traditionalists and indeed non-Traditionalist Catholics getting actively involved in discussions here.
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Post by royalosiodhachain on Aug 1, 2008 1:19:47 GMT
Dear Moderator, no offence, but I do not see why some persons like - you know who, the big bird.... - are allowed to spread their evil propaganda, and why not SPPX [/quote] Willy, it was never my wish to ban SSPX posters or even to discourage them. On the contrary I would be delighted to see SSPX supporters, other Traditionalists and indeed non-Traditionalist Catholics getting actively involved in discussions here.[/quote][/i] To Michael G. and Willy both of you, My supervisor of two years at an employment I held in the late 90's was a deacon at a SPPX community about 7 miles from my home. He and I spend many hours discussing similarities and differences between the Catholic faith Doctrine and the doctrine of the SPPX. We both concluded that the SPPX was not evidentially Catholic in Doctrine, rather Orthodox with a hispanic twist. This deacon thought overall that his community was not well supported and would blush with shame whenever I told him he was not in communion with the Holy See and that his communion was in error. Resultantly, the deacon took revenge on me due to the nature of my exhortations and set me up for discharge from my employment even though my employment record was impeccable. I understand completely Michael G.'s concerns from experience. I know Willy reminds me of my father, Delmer O'Siodhachain who went straight for the punch in the face(knocks all their tooths out) whene're he got some dandruff in his hair. I am so happy to see you both creating understanding through dialog. It impresses me immensely coming from a nation (the USA) that bombs [and grenades, and gasses and rat a tat tats (machine gun)] anyone that discovers the wig we are wearing to cover our bald foreheads. Think of the character disorder complex I must live with being called, An American.
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Post by guillaume on Aug 1, 2008 10:18:12 GMT
Dear Moderator, no offence, but I do not see why some persons like - you know who, the big bird.... - are allowed to spread their evil propaganda, and why not SPPX Willy, it was never my wish to ban SSPX posters or even to discourage them. On the contrary I would be delighted to see SSPX supporters, other Traditionalists and indeed non-Traditionalist Catholics getting actively involved in discussions here.[/quote][/i] To Michael G. and Willy both of you, My supervisor of two years at an employment I held in the late 90's was a deacon at a SPPX community about 7 miles from my home. He and I spend many hours discussing similarities and differences between the Catholic faith Doctrine and the doctrine of the SPPX. We both concluded that the SPPX was not evidentially Catholic in Doctrine, rather Orthodox with a hispanic twist. This deacon thought overall that his community was not well supported and would blush with shame whenever I told him he was not in communion with the Holy See and that his communion was in error. Resultantly, the deacon took revenge on me due to the nature of my exhortations and set me up for discharge from my employment even though my employment record was impeccable. I understand completely Michael G.'s concerns from experience. I know Willy reminds me of my father, Delmer O'Siodhachain who went straight for the punch in the face(knocks all their tooths out) whene're he got some dandruff in his hair. I am so happy to see you both creating understanding through dialog. It impresses me immensely coming from a nation (the USA) that bombs [and grenades, and gasses and rat a tat tats (machine gun)] anyone that discovers the wig we are wearing to cover our bald foreheads. Think of the character disorder complex I must live with being called, An American.[/quote] Dear Royal. The example you give regarding the relation you had with a member of the SPPX is sad, and I find compassion with you (above all a this very moment, where my job, state of duty, is in jeopardy ). However, this example shouldn't refrain you from any relation with the whole Society. The Society is made of humans, and cannot be perfect. However, the mission of the Society to conserve and propagate the Truth faith and the Tradition of 2000 years of Catholic doctrine and sacraments, especially the Holy Mass, is still intact. It is not for nothing that the Pope greatest desire is to see the SPPX back to full communion in the RCC. It is because he respects and - on somehow - love her. In this massive "mess" which had touched the RCC since VII, the SPPX is still trying to sort out this mess. The SPPX is certainly not sedevac. She might not agree with the Pope on many points, but she believes that the Pope is the Pope. She is referring the whole "mess" as a deep crisis in the RCC, and she is right. We should be blind or indifferent not to recognize there is a massive crisis in the RCC today. So regarding Sacraments, doctrine, teaching of the Faith, transmission of the Holy Magisterium, celebration of a proper Mass and respectful liturgy, I think we can trust indeed the Work of the SPPX, despite many defaults due to our human nature. God Bless.
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Post by royalosiodhachain on Aug 1, 2008 12:19:39 GMT
Dear Royal. The example you give regarding the relation you had with a member of the SPPX is sad, and I find compassion with you (above all a this very moment, where my job, state of duty, is in jeopardy ). However, this example shouldn't refrain you from any relation with the whole Society. The Society is made of humans, and cannot be perfect. However, the mission of the Society to conserve and propagate the Truth faith and the Tradition of 2000 years of Catholic doctrine and sacraments, especially the Holy Mass, is still intact. It is not for nothing that the Pope greatest desire is to see the SPPX back to full communion in the RCC. It is because he respects and - on somehow - love her. In this massive "mess" which had touched the RCC since VII, the SPPX is still trying to sort out this mess. The SPPX is certainly not sedevac. She might not agree with the Pope on many points, but she believes that the Pope is the Pope. She is referring the whole "mess" as a deep crisis in the RCC, and she is right. We should be blind or indifferent not to recognize there is a massive crisis in the RCC today. So regarding Sacraments, doctrine, teaching of the Faith, transmission of the Holy Magisterium, celebration of a proper Mass and respectful liturgy, I think we can trust indeed the Work of the SPPX, despite many defaults due to our human nature. God Bless.[/i] Willy, I proceed as I always do with caution when presented with a description of religious beliefs. You will know them by their fruits. I have been watching the SPPX for many years to see if they will prove honest intent. I copied from and interview with Bishop Fellay when he approached Pope Benedict XVI concerning full communion. DICI: How did the audience go? BISHOP FELLAY: The audience took place in the pope's summer residence at Castel Gandolfo. Scheduled for 11:30 a.m., it actually began at 12:10 p.m., in the Sovereign Pontiff’s office. He generally grants an audience of 15 minutes to a bishop. For us, the audience lasted 35 minutes. This means ¾so say the Vatican specialists ¾that Benedict XVI wanted to demonstrate his interest in these questions. There were four of us: the Holy Father and Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos, Fr. Schmidberger and myself. The conversation took place in French ¾contrary to the announcement by some that it would take place in German. The pope himself led the conversation in a benevolent ambiance. He spoke of three difficulties, in response to the note we had sent him shortly before the audience. Benedict XVI had obviously read the note, and it was not necessary to go over the points brought up in it. We had, in the note, given a description of the Church, quoting "silent apostasy" from John Paul II, "the boat which is taking in water from every side" and "the dictatorship of relativism" from Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, and we had appended photos of certain very scandalous Masses. DICI: Is it possible for us to know the difficulties raised by Benedict XVI? BISHOP FELLAY: I can only evoke them. First of all, the Holy Father insisted on effective recognition of the pope, linking it to the necessity of consecrating bishops as pleaded by Archbishop Lefebvre, and our subsequent activities. Then Benedict XVI pointed out that there can be only one way of belonging to the Catholic Church: i.e., by having the spirit of Vatican II interpreted in the light of Tradition, that is to say according to the intention of the Fathers of the Council and the letter of the text. This is a perspective that rather frightens us…. Finally, we would have to have, thinks the Sovereign Pontiff, a suitable structure for the traditional rite and certain exterior practices ¾without, however, protecting us from the spirit of the Council that we would have to adopt. DICI: The press has published rumors concerning divisions within the Society of St. Pius X. What is exactly the case? BISHOP FELLAY: The announcement of the audience granted by the pope has provoked feverish talk in the media, which made a lot of noise, attempting to show that divisions exist in the Society among its four bishops. Journalists have also published the threats directed against the pope by the progressives: "To grant freedom to the Mass is to disavow Paul VI and the liturgical reform." I can however affirm that within the Society of St. Pius X, the four bishops are united on the question of the relationship with Rome, and that Bishop Williamson, whose name has been quoted, is not "sedevacantist". The media has nothing to worry about. Alas, this for them is not newsworthy. Willy, If I were called to be an advisor to Pope Benedict XVI regarding the SSPX, I would advise him to require an agreement from the Society to change there name to SPBXVI which would become the Society of Pope Benedict XVI effectively changing their purpose and affiliation away from Pope Piux X and proving affilitation at least in name only to Pope Benedict XVI. Further, I would advise them to drop from their agenda the Traditional Latin Mass as the primary focus of their society then establish new focus on The Liturgical Directives established by the Vatican for the Mass worldwide. These two changes in the current formation of the SSPX, if adopted, would effectively prove their sincere intention as any further attempts by them to promote an affiliation with a Pope from the past and any attempts to exclusive promote the TLM would immediately excommunicate them defacto impromptu again and identify them obviously as sedevacant. along with the other recognized sedevcant groups ie: * Society of St. Pius V (formed when a small number of priests of the Society of St. Pius X split from that organisation over the issue of sedevacantism) * The Ngô Ðình Thuc Pierre Martin line of episcopal succession * Congregation of Mary Immaculate Queen Sedevacantism is the term commonly used to denote the belief, held by a minority of Traditionalist Catholics, that some or all of the men generally recognized as Popes since the death of Pope Pius XII in 1958 (Pope John XXIII, Pope Paul VI, Pope John Paul I, Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI) have not truly held the papal office, and have hence been antipopes. The word is derived from the Latin phrase "sede vacante", which means "while the See is vacant" and is used in Vatican documents in the interval between the death or abdication of the Pope and the election of his successor. You see, Willy, obedience proves a man's honesty, not promises made in dialog. The SSPX needs to prove their honesty in what they promote as current Catholic Doctrine. When the Pope Benedict XVI sees obedience to current Catholic Doctrine from the SSPX as well as other groups previously contentious against the current Doctrine then he knows he is dealing with honest men. Until that happens however, their own behavior and language proves their deception as vividly as your name is Willy.
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Post by guillaume on Aug 1, 2008 23:58:07 GMT
Willy, If I were called to be an advisor to Pope Benedict XVI regarding the SSPX, I would advise him to require an agreement from the Society to change there name to SPBXVI which would become the Society of Pope Benedict XVI effectively changing their purpose and affiliation away from Pope Piux X and proving affilitation at least in name only to Pope Benedict XVI. Further, I would advise them to drop from their agenda the Traditional Latin Mass as the primary focus of their society then establish new focus on The Liturgical Directives established by the Vatican [VII you mean ?]for the Mass worldwide. These two changes in the current formation of the SSPX, if adopted, would effectively prove their sincere intention as any further attempts by them to promote an affiliation with a Pope from the past and any attempts to exclusive promote the TLM would immediately excommunicate them defacto impromptu again and identify them obviously as sedevacant. along with the other recognized sedevcant groups ie: * Society of St. Pius V (formed when a small number of priests of the Society of St. Pius X split from that organisation over the issue of sedevacantism) * The Ngô Ðình Thuc Pierre Martin line of episcopal succession * Congregation of Mary Immaculate Queen
Sedevacantism is the term commonly used to denote the belief, held by a minority of Traditionalist Catholics, that some or all of the men generally recognized as Popes since the death of Pope Pius XII in 1958 (Pope John XXIII, Pope Paul VI, Pope John Paul I, Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI) have not truly held the papal office, and have hence been antipopes. The word is derived from the Latin phrase "sede vacante", which means "while the See is vacant" and is used in Vatican documents in the interval between the death or abdication of the Pope and the election of his successor.
You see, Willy, obedience proves a man's honesty, not promises made in dialog. The SSPX needs to prove their honesty in what they promote as current Catholic Doctrine. When the Pope Benedict XVI sees obedience to current Catholic Doctrine from the SSPX as well as other groups previously contentious against the current Doctrine then he knows he is dealing with honest men. Until that happens however, their own behavior and language proves their deception as vividly as your name is Willy.I think the name of Society [actually it is Fraternity] of Saint Pie X, is fine, as it is a reference and an homage to the great Saint Pope, combatant of modernism. You also got the Society of saint Peter ! Should they also drop any affiliation from the first Pope from the past Also, do you mean by dropping the agenda of the TLM, SPPX should embrace the NOM ? It is actually the "directives" - for many misinterpreted - of Vatican II than SSPX is fighting. The Tradition and the TLM is the base, the absolute base of the meaning of the creation of the whole Society. Never ever she will abandon the TLM to follow the Vatican directives, as soon as the Vatican will persist in those transformations of the sacrifice of the Lord into a "banquet"-reunion-neo-protestant. This is a serious issue because Mass is the center of Christian life. The SSPX had been created in order to preserve the treasure of the TLM and his holiness, that the new directives of VII had more or less abandoned. The Mission and Combat of the SPPX is liturgical. The CCC notes : 1124 The Church's faith precedes the faith of the believer who is invited to adhere to it. When the Church celebrates the sacraments, she confesses the faith received from the apostles - whence the ancient saying: lex orandi, lex credendi (or: legem credendi lex statuat supplicandi, according to Prosper of Aquitaine [5th cent.]).45 The law of prayer is the law of faith: the Church believes as she prays. Liturgy is a constitutive element of the holy and living Tradition.46 1125 For this reason no sacramental rite may be modified or manipulated at the will of the minister or the community. Even the supreme authority in the Church may not change the liturgy arbitrarily, but only in the obedience of faith and with religious respect for the mystery of the liturgy. 1126 Likewise, since the sacraments express and develop the communion of faith in the Church, the lex orandi is one of the essential criteria of the dialogue that seeks to restore the unity of Christians.47 And that is the problem with the RCC today....... God Bless.
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Post by royalosiodhachain on Aug 2, 2008 0:54:19 GMT
You also got the Society of saint Peter ! Should they also drop any affiliation from the first Pope from the past
Willy, Yes they should drop their affiliation when that affiliation leads them to discord with the current Pope.
Also, do you mean by dropping the agenda of the TLM, SPPX should embrace the NOM ?
Willy, Absolutely in favor of promoting peace with the Vatican through unity of worship
many misinterpreted - of Vatican II than SSPX is fighting.
Willy, In their own opinion are they fighting. They all have recourse to open dialog with the Pope at any time, rather they choose willingly to defy Catholic Doctrine and obedience to it in it's current form. They are living in the past which is irrational behavior, we are all called to live in the present by Christ.
The Tradition and the TLM is the base, the absolute base of the meaning of the creation of the whole Society.
Willy, That is correct and that is precisely why they should be required to drop it in favor of current doctrinal objectives at the Vatican to prove obedience to the faith.
Even the supreme authority in the Church may not change the liturgy arbitrarily, but only in the obedience of faith and with religious respect for the mystery of the liturgy.
Willy, This is exactly what caused the excommunican of Bishop Le fabre, that he falsely presumed the Pope acted out of his authority when in fact the Pope has acted fully according to his authority. Any honest person doubting that has the ability to get audience with the Pope for discussion, however direct disobedience to Liturgical Directives is subject to discipline and when in obstinacy, is subject to excommunication officially which is what happened here with the SSPX.
1126 Likewise, since the sacraments express and develop the communion of faith in the Church, the lex orandi is one of the essential criteria of the dialogue that seeks to restore the unity of Christians.47
Willy, This is true and this is exactly what the SSPX is begging the Pope Benedict XVI for repeatedly and remorsefully, now that they have suffered excommunication for how many years?
And that is the problem with the RCC today....... God Bless.[/quote][/i]
Willy, On the contrary, that is what is the problem with the SSPX today which needs rectification with the Vatican. That is why my advice to the Pope would be to change their name to SPBXVI, Society of Pope Benedict XVI and change their primary goal away from the TLM to the practice of Liturgical Norms as published by the Vatican. If they so badly want the TLM all they have to do is get audience with the Pope and ask humbly and honestly. Disobedience is merely a method of defection, which is the history and legacy of the SSPX. They need to be honest. Willy
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Post by guillaume on Aug 2, 2008 7:44:04 GMT
You also got the Society of saint Peter ! Should they also drop any affiliation from the first Pope from the past Willy, Yes they should drop their affiliation when that affiliation leads them to discord with the current Pope. Also, do you mean by dropping the agenda of the TLM, SPPX should embrace the NOM ?Willy, Absolutely in favor of promoting peace with the Vatican through unity of worship many misinterpreted - of Vatican II than SSPX is fighting.Willy, In their own opinion are they fighting. They all have recourse to open dialog with the Pope at any time, rather they choose willingly to defy Catholic Doctrine and obedience to it in it's current form. They are living in the past which is irrational behavior, we are all called to live in the present by Christ. The Tradition and the TLM is the base, the absolute base of the meaning of the creation of the whole Society.Willy, That is correct and that is precisely why they should be required to drop it in favor of current doctrinal objectives at the Vatican to prove obedience to the faith. Even the supreme authority in the Church may not change the liturgy arbitrarily, but only in the obedience of faith and with religious respect for the mystery of the liturgy.Willy, This is exactly what caused the excommunican of Bishop Le fabre, that he falsely presumed the Pope acted out of his authority when in fact the Pope has acted fully according to his authority. Any honest person doubting that has the ability to get audience with the Pope for discussion, however direct disobedience to Liturgical Directives is subject to discipline and when in obstinacy, is subject to excommunication officially which is what happened here with the SSPX. 1126 Likewise, since the sacraments express and develop the communion of faith in the Church, the lex orandi is one of the essential criteria of the dialogue that seeks to restore the unity of Christians.47Willy, This is true and this is exactly what the SSPX is begging the Pope Benedict XVI for repeatedly and remorsefully, now that they have suffered excommunication for how many years? And that is the problem with the RCC today....... God Bless. [/i] Willy, On the contrary, that is what is the problem with the SSPX today which needs rectification with the Vatican. That is why my advice to the Pope would be to change their name to SPBXVI, Society of Pope Benedict XVI and change their primary goal away from the TLM to the practice of Liturgical Norms as published by the Vatican. If they so badly want the TLM all they have to do is get audience with the Pope and ask humbly and honestly. Disobedience is merely a method of defection, which is the history and legacy of the SSPX. They need to be honest. Willy[/quote] Royal, no offense, but i cannot agree with you on nearlly all the points. 1) Fraternity of Saint Peter, is in communion with the Pope. It had been born following the Ordinations of Mgr Lefebvre in 1988. 2) "If they so badly want the TLM all they have to do is get audience with the Pope and ask humbly and honestly." I think the Pope published last year the Motu Proprio "Summorum Pontificum" which permits any priests to celebrate the TLM without any permission from the Ordinary. So, they do not need any audience [with the Pope] to celebrate the old mass. 3) "the SSPX is begging the Pope Benedict XVI for repeatedly and remorsefully, now that they have suffered excommunication for how many years? " The SPPX is not begging, but just asking for the Excommunication be lifted. However the SPPX is living with this "punishment" and will still for many years if necessary. Priests and Faithful of the SPPX are not excommunicated, as Cardinal De Hoyos, prefect of the Commission Ecclesia Dei, reminded us in 2005 : " The bishops, priests and faithful of the Society of St Pius X are not schismatics. By the illicit episcopal consecration Archbishop Lefebvre performed a schismatic act. For this reason the bishops consecrated by him are suspended and excommunicated. The priests and faithful of the Society are not excommunicated. They are not heretics. I share Saint Jerome's fear that heresy leads to schism and vice versa. The danger of a schism is great, for instance through systematic disobedience to the Holy Father or denial of his authority. It is a question of a service of charity (love of neighbor) through which the priestly society obtains full communion with the Holy Father and recognizes the holiness of the new Mass." 4) Regarding the celebration of the NOM : It will be too long for me to explain the difference between the NOM and the TLM, and why the SPPX (and other traditionalist movements) are focused on the last one. Lets say that SPPX "officially" recognizes the validity of the new mass. However, recognizing a Tree according to its fruits, it is clear that VII and his "daughter", the new mass, cause a major problem within the faith and tradition. The fact that you do not see the value, and see, the FAR SUPERIOR value of the TLM, makes me think you are not a tradi yourself. The fruits of the new mass, and new sacraments, are not as good as the old mass. SPPX consider VII as...... say.... a mistake. I say, it was a failed test, a failure to try to change things and to "renew" and change something valued as Holy for 2000 years.
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Post by royalosiodhachain on Aug 2, 2008 11:53:03 GMT
The fact that you do not see the value, and see, the FAR SUPERIOR value of the TLM, makes me think you are not a tradi yourself. The fruits of the new mass, and new sacraments, are not as good as the old mass. SPPX consider VII as...... say.... a mistake. I say, it was a failed test, a failure to try to change things and to "renew" and change something valued as Holy for 2000 years.
[/quote][/i]
Willy, I think you misunderstand me. I love the Mass in any form like you would like a buffet of cream pies. I will take whatever I can get. I love the TLM and NOM, I have been to Aramaic and Italian and Spanish and French and Ukrain and even abbreviated celebrations of the Mass and love them all like you love cream pies, banana cream, coconut cream, lemon marangue etc.
I dont have any problem with Vatican 11 at all. I have always lived in the moment and always will. I cannot revert to the past so what I miss or dont miss about the past is for me a blank. I draw my memories and my affections from the here and now. I am simply glad to be alive and so whatever Mass is being said, I am Eternally grateful if for no other reason than reception of Christ in the Eucharist. I have a prayer closet in my home and that is where I do my most intense worship of God.
As far as SSPX is concerned, I know the only people excommunicated were those who dissented from Catholic Doctrine. The Catholic church would not excommunicate masses of people unless they worshipped in false fashion and false Doctrinal presentations of non worship of Christ, no matter who they are they may not incur excommunication although they will not receive communion with the Catholic Church because they represent scandal to the One True Christ who is not many parts but One True Church. I strive to live my Catholic interactions with all other forms of religion according to the Decree on Ecuminism applying this to schismatics, heretics, Hindu, Muslim, Greek and Jew etc, ect. The scandal presented to the world by dissenters from the One True Church does not promote the cause of Christ. My goal always and everywhere is to promote the caust of Christ as the worship of the One True Christ, God help me if I do not. I want not to deny Christ at any time, as it is written in the Holy Scriptures from Christ Himself, "whosoever denies me [Christ], I will deny before my Heavenly Father", whosoever meaning who-so-ever.
DECREE ON ECUMENISM UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO
INTRODUCTION
1. The restoration of unity among all Christians is one of the principal concerns of the Second Vatican Council. Christ the Lord founded one Church and one Church only. However, many Christian communions present themselves to men as the true inheritors of Jesus Christ; all indeed profess to be followers of the Lord but differ in mind and go their different ways, as if Christ Himself were divided.(1) Such division openly contradicts the will of Christ, scandalizes the world, and damages the holy cause of preaching the Gospel to every creature.
But the Lord of Ages wisely and patiently follows out the plan of grace on our behalf, sinners that we are. In recent times more than ever before, He has been rousing divided Christians to remorse over their divisions and to a longing for unity. Everywhere large numbers have felt the impulse of this grace, and among our separated brethren also there increases from day to day the movement, fostered by the grace of the Holy Spirit, for the restoration of unity among all Christians. This movement toward unity is called "ecumenical." Those belong to it who invoke the Triune God and confess Jesus as Lord and Savior, doing this not merely as individuals but also as corporate bodies. For almost everyone regards the body in which he has heard the Gospel as his Church and indeed, God's Church. All however, though in different ways, long for the one visible Church of God, a Church truly universal and set forth into the world that the world may be converted to the Gospel and so be saved, to the glory of God.
The Sacred Council gladly notes all this. It has already declared its teaching on the Church, and now, moved by a desire for the restoration of unity among all the followers of Christ, it wishes to set before all Catholics the ways and means by which they too can respond to this grace and to this divine call.
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Post by royalosiodhachain on Aug 3, 2008 14:27:01 GMT
Royal, I disagree with you on nearly all points.
Willy, Wake up and smell the Irish Catholic coffee brewing, but try flavoring it with cream from many different cultures and you will be amazed how good it tastes!
You apparently are forgetting the Tower of Babel and how the men united in one language and one purpose: to build a tower to reach to heaven and so to overcome God. And God went down to see what men had done and was not pleased, so he confused their language and sent them from there to places all over the earth and destroyed the Tower so that men would never again unite against Him in a single purpose and language.
If you really want to live in the past and conform to the early liturgy of the Church, the TLM is actually fairly recently celebrated. A far earlier form of the Mass is celebrated by the Ukrainian Catholic Church whose Liturgy was developed during the Reign of Constantine from Saint John Chrysostom.
Pope John Paul II Reflections on the Eastern Rite Catholic Churches
Pope John Paul II has frequently focused on the traditions and spirituality of the Christian brothers and sisters of the East, both the Eastern Rite Churches that are in union with the Pope, such as the Mother of God Catholic Church, and also the Orthodox Churches. The Eastern Rite Catholic Churches and the Orthodox Churches share the same Divine Liturgy, the Mass, an older form of the Mass dating back to the third century.
Some of the Holy Father's words on the Eastern Churches follow:
* Orientale Lumen (The Light Of The East) - Apostolic Letter promulgated on May 2, 1995 * Vatican II Praised Eastern Traditions - General Audience, August 9,1995 * Fourth Centenary of the Union of Brest - Apostolic Letter of the Supreme Pontiff issued November 12, 1995 * Union of Brest Was Work of Holy Spirit - Moleben [Prayer Service], July 6, 1996 * We Give Thanks to God for Union of Brest - Holy Father Celebrates Divine Liturgy to Commemorate 400th Anniversary, July 7, 1996 * The Church Venerates Fathers of East and West - Angelus, August 4, 1996 * Eastern Theology Has Enriched the Whole Church - Angelus, August 11, 1996 * Love of Mary Shared by East and West - Angelus, August 18, 1996 * Fathers of East Knew How to Listen to Spirit of God - Angelus, September 8, 1996 * Eastern Spirituality Emphasizes the 'Heart' - Angelus, September 29, 1996 * Beauty Has Important Role in Eastern Spirituality - Angelus, November 3, 1996 * Icons Show the Human Face of God - Angelus, November 17, 1996 * Different Traditions Can Be Mutually Enriching - Angelus message of January 6, 1997
If you want to go really far back to the original Mass celebrated by the Apostles, you will want to attend a Maronite Mass which is done by the Lebanese Catholics. Their entire Mass is spoken in Aramic which is the identical language spoken by Christ during His entire life on earth. The Liturgical form of the Maronite Rite has been preserved from the time of Christ.
So as far as going back in time pre Vatican 11, how about going way back to the time of Christ with the Maronite Rite in Aramic?
The Syriac Maronite Church is an integration of three traditions:
* Antioch: A center of commerce and communication in West Syria of Greek and Syriac influence.It gave the Maronite Church its biblical theology and use of the literal sense of scripture. * Edessa: A prominent city, where St. Ephrem lived, in ancient Mesopotamia of semitic culture and Syriac poetry. Both influenced the prayer and hymnody of the Maronite Church. * Mount Lebanon: A region in the Middle East of Lebanese culture and tradition. It provided a haven for the Maronite monastic life, worship and traditions begun by Maron.
The Maronites living in the countryside near Antioch resisted extensive Greek influence and retained the Syriac culture and language of Edessa. Thus the theology, spirituality and liturgy developed according to biblical themes rather than philosophical thought. Maron (350-410 AD)
Maron, a priest and hermit, known to John Chrysostom, walked the land once traveled by Peter and Paul. On the banks of the Orontes River, Father Maron converted an old pagan temple into a church. He spent his life teaching about the faith and ministering to many people with the gift of healing and counsel. Over 800 monks later followed in his footsteps. These early followers of the lifestyle and way of Maron were known as MARONITES.
Their history reveals great sacrifices of their lives and possessions for their religious convictions and freedom. They defended the Council of Chalcedon (taught Christ is God and man, and Mary is Mother of God). Maronites came to Mount Lebanon and later elected John Maron as their first patriarch in 687. By this, the Maronite Community became established as an organized church and Lebanon became the third geographical center of influence for Maron's family of faith.
From its monastic origins to today the Maronite Community of faith includes several religious orders of monks and sisters whose important ministries to the Church provide continued nourishment, growth and maturity. Maronites are Catholics of many nations and diverse cultures.
Presently, the Mother Church is in Lebanon and daughter communities exist in ever nation of the world. Often the sons and daughters of Maron are referred to as Beit Maroun, (the house of Maron). A View of God
God is Mystery: The Maronite mind has always been in awe of this mysteriousness of God and presumes a great distance between Creator and creation. However, the distance is bridged by God's self revelation. "We are able only to say God is, but to research how he is, the door is closed." Narsai
The reason is the inner life of God is a divine mystery beyond limited human knowledge and understanding. Two things account for this: 1)the Jewish Christian origins of the Maronite Church, and 2) its familiarity with the scriptures.
Yet, the process leads to mystical union with God- for the more one loves God, the more one encounters God. The search for God then leads to wonder, communion and prayer. "When one tries to describe the mystery of God in words, e can only stammer." Ephrem An Approach to Prayer
Prayer is the process of "being" in the presence of God Who is always present to all creation. To encounter creation and humankind is to meet and embrace God.
The early Syriac writers drew upon the semitic biblical idea of HEART as the center of spiritual life. The Greek writers relied upon a more philosophical idea of HEART as the center of intellectual life.
The Maronite tradition sees the HEART as the focal point for all life. The heart is the place for the deepest communication with and presence of God. To live is to pray, and to pray is to live in the awarneness and experience of all creation as made in the image of God.
Prayer of the heart means light, clarity and inner vision. The heart becomes the altar for prayer-offering. The Spirit overshadows, accepts and transforms the prayer. Note well the link between the overshadowing of the Spirit at the altar of prayer and the altar of Eucharist. To pray from the heart (center) is to be continuously filled with a remembrance of God, here and now, by the Spirit's infusion.
Thus prayer is the state of lovingly remembering God so that the person experiences His presence and communion. It is the gift of inner vision which sees all created things as transparent- God-touched, transformed and divinized. A Biblical Spirituality
While one is unable to know God himself, he can know God who manifests himself through nature, humanity and scripture. St. Paul Writes: "Since the creation of the world, invisible realities have become visible, recognized through the things God has made" (Rom 1:20).
Genesis indicates that the hidden God revealed Himself through His creating word. Since God spoke it into being, creation is a great symbol of the Creator.
God said: "Let there be light, and there was light." Then Jesus proclaimed: "I am the Light of the world." Creation: Everything bears the imprint of the hidden God. Man/Woman is the image of God who gradually reveals Himself in the world he creates. Humanity: God inspired rulers to act on His behalf; chose prophets to interpret the meaning of His deeds and guided authors to record His words. Scripture: God's progressive revealing of Himself sets the stage for His fullest self-communication in Jesus Christ, the Word made flesh.
God imprints upon nature and in scripture symbols and figures which manifest His son. Thus the purpose of the created universe is to reveal Christ and to prepare humankind for His coming in the flesh and in glory.
This spirituality teaches that the "image of Adam" was not destroyed but deformed by sin and is recreated in a new splendor by Jesus the Savior.
Antioch's school of theology stressed the humanity of Christ. This is best seen in the Maronite liturgical texts which focus on the humanity of the Son of God who experienced the human condition - even death.
"In the beginning, You formed us from the earth in Your image and gave us the joy of paradise. When we transgressed Your command, You did not reject us, but called us back by the law, as a merciful Father. You guided us by the prophets. When the time was fulfilled You sent Your son into the world that He might renew Your image. He became man by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary. He accomplished all things for the salvation of the human race" (Anaphora of James, the Apostle). A Life-Journey From Earth to Heaven
The world is improving with time and it moves from incompleteness to completeness. The interaction between God and humans in Christ is to prepare and teach them for their divine vocation- the kingdom.
Jesus, in His birth, death and resurrection transforms, divinizes and completes humanity.
"You have united Your divinity with our humanity. You have joined Your Imortality with our mortality. You have taken what is ours and given us what is Yours for our life and salvation" (Maronite Liturgy). A Maronite Approach to Scripture
The Maronite liturgical texts paraphrase and explain the scriptures through the scriptures. The Old Testament is read and interpreted in light of the New Testament. Old Testament images offer types (patterns) of the promised Messiah such as:
* Adam and New Adam * Tree of knowledge and tree of life * Side of Adam and side of Jesus * Manna and the Divine manna
Ephrem taught: "When you look, the symbol of Christ is present. Where you read, you find His types" A Monastic Spirit
The monastic spirit of the Maronite Church opens the door to a life of simplicity a vision of hope and an attitude of readiness. The human vocation is to become like God, but sin interrupts this call. Conversion and purification invite a person to renewal, new life and intimacy with God.
Thus, human beings become what God intends for them-Children and heirs of the kingdom.
For a Maronite Christian the spiritual journey to the kingdom is described in terms of Birth from three wombs which the Holy Spirit energizes with Life. Life: birth from mother's womb Baptism: Spiritual birth from womb of baptism Death: life's passage through tomb The Maronite Liturgy
The Maronite Liturgy is called Service of the Holy Mysteries and derives from the Syriac :.ministering at the altar". Liturgy, Qourbono and other words are used.
The entire liturgy (prayers, gestures, music, art, and architecture) reflects from beginning to end, glory to God for His loving mercy and the call of the worshipper to forgiveness and rebirth.
The attitude of the Maronite worshiper is unworthiness of and readiness for the second coming of the Lord Jesus. "Blessed is he who has come and will come in the name of the Lord" (Maronite Liturgy).
The believer is likened to a ship opening its sails to the Holy Spirit and making its maiden voyage home to the harbor of safety.
The Holy Spirit is the principal minister in the liturgy. He is the beginning, the end and the perfection of all things.
The Service of the Holy Mysteries develops three themes: 1) humanity's creation in God's image; 2)deep awareness of God's mercy toward sinful people; 3) joyful praise of the Trinity.
The tone of the service is simple and direct in the monastic spirit of its founder, St. Maron. A balance is achieved between the hiddenness and presence of God in Jesus.
The worshiper becomes involves in a human-divine drama which unfolds before and within him and makes once a sharer in the Kingdom. The Mysteries/Sacraments become the meeting point for the believer and God.
The communal aspect of worship is emphasized by the fact that the community is absorbed in a continuous dialogue with the celebrant who mediates on behalf of Christ the High Priest, and the deacon who serves an instructing and coordinating role.
In Christian tradition, these places are called «Loca Sancta», because they are linked to the Biblical tradition, the history of God’s Revelation to humanity. Like the Christian pilgrims of old, the Holy Father comes to these places in this Jubilee Year «gratia orationis» (Itinerarium Egeriæ, 13:1), to celebrate the memory of the Incarnation and the Paschal Mystery «in these sacred spaces, where the encounter with the divine may be experienced more intensely than it would normally be in the vastness of the cosmos» (Letter, l.c., No. 2). Here, in these sacred spaces, «are found our spiritual roots» (ibid, No. 4). In these places the Church began, in these places the new liturgy of the Church was born.
The texts of the Masses to be celebrated by the Holy Father and by the Bishops and priests, together with the rubrics, are in English or Latin; the texts of the assembly are, depending on the celebration, in Latin or Arabic, the latter being the language of the majority of the Christians in the Holy Land.
The Readings are in Arabic, English, Italian or Latin. The intentions of the Prayer of the Faithful are in Arabic, Hebrew, French, English, Italian, Spanish and German, as a sign of the participation of all the people living or working in the land of Jesus.
Particular ritual aspects
At the beginning of the celebration, water taken from the Jordan River is blessed for the sprinkling of the faithful. The Gospel is proclaimed according to the Greek Melkite Rite. The Baptismal Profession of Faith is introduced by the Patriarch of Jerusalem. At the end of the Mass the Pope will bless three cornerstones to be used in the construction of a Maronite Church, a Syrian Catholic Church and the «Regina Pacis» Center.
The celebration in the Roman Rite
The Mass, celebrated by the Bishop of Rome, follows the Roman Rite. Nevertheless an effort has been made to foster the participation of the Arab-language community and the presence of other Catholic Rites, without overlooking the pilgrims and other communities. The First Reading is proclaimed in Arabic (by a Maronite), as are the Responsorial Psalm and the Gospel (the latter according to the Byzantine Rite). The same language is used for the chanting of the Gloria, the Sanctus, the Agnus Dei, and the offertory and communion hymns. The Second Reading is proclaimed in English, while the intercessions of the Prayer of the Faithful are in Arabic, French, Italian, Spanish and English. The Creed is chanted in Latin. The Eucharistic Prayer is recited in Latin, and the Our Father is sung in Arabic.
The Mass is in Latin, while the Liturgy of the Word is in Italian and French.
The Prayer of the Faithful is based on Jesus’ prayer for unity, also called his priestly prayer (Jn 17), and it includes the intentions of this papal pilgrimage, «marked by the desire expressed in Christ’s prayer to the Father that his disciples ‘may all be one’» (ibid., No. 11). The intentions are read in French, Italian and English.
The Eucharistic celebration with young people, while substantially in the Roman Rite, will also have a Middle Eastern and a universal character.
— the texts selected in accordance with the different liturgical traditions: the Responsorial Psalm is chanted in Arabic by a Maronite; the Gospel is proclaimed by a Greek Catholic; the response to the intentions of the Prayer of the Faithful, «Kyrie, eleison», is chanted according to the Maronite Rite, the Sanctus according to a Byzantine melody, and the second Communion hymn according to the Syro-Antiochene tradition.
— the different languages in some of the songs and the Prayer of the Faithful, the Gregorian Kyrie from the Missa «De Angelis», the Gloria of the Mass of Lourdes, and the Creed and the Our Father in Gregorian chant.
Latin, as the characteristic language of the Roman Rite, is the language of the celebration. Arabic, the most common language of the Christian population, and English are used in the Liturgy of the Word. The intercessions of the Prayer of the Faithful are recited in Hebrew, Italian, Spanish, French, German and Arabic. The hymns are sung in Gregorian chant.
The Office of Liturgical Celebrations of the Supreme Pontiff, in cooperation with the local liturgical authorities, has prepared this special Missal for the celebration of the Pope’s pilgrimage to the Holy Land, conscious of the unique importance of this Jubilee Journey by the Universal Pastor to the very wellsprings of the Church’s life. The Missal calls for participation in the different celebrations by all the ancient Rites present in the Holy Land, heirs of the liturgical tradition of the Church of the Fathers.
So you see Willy, it is entirely selfish to think that the TLM is the source and the summit of the Liturgical Mass, there are other people in the world who enjoy other dialects and traditions. To think that Vatican 11 or the Pope will ever announce a single language Mass is purely prideful and not worthy of Christ in his Universal Church, the Roman Catholic Church founded by Christ for all peoples and all languages. Selfish, selfish, selfish are those who insist on a single language Mass.[glow=red,2,300][/glow]
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Post by hibernicus on Nov 26, 2008 15:07:57 GMT
In answer to the original query - yes, one decade each morning and another in the evening. I do find it difficult to concentrate but the effort to visualise and meditate on the Mysteries helps. I don't use the Luminous Mysteries, not because I dislike them but because I'm not accustomed to them, having leanred the Rosary beffore Pope John Paul came out with them.
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Post by hibernicus on Dec 4, 2008 16:02:18 GMT
Yes, P dedicate it (sometimes at least) to peopel I want to help. One thing I did pick up from visiting an elderlyfriend at the same time I saw the MEl Gibson PASSION film is that the agonies of Our Lord can be identified with the natral disintegration of the body we all undergo with sickness and age. I find this helps me with the Sorrowful Mysteries, especially when I dedicate them to old and ill friends of mine (and I ask a little help for my own middle-aged creaking joints as well).
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