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Post by Devotus Immaculatae on May 22, 2024 13:20:22 GMT
It's sadly often forgotten that Knock is an International Eucharistic as well as a Marian Shrine, and one of only two basilicas in Ireland. (The other being Lough Derg, which was made a minor basilica by Pope Pius XI in 1931.) The basilica at Knock alone can seat approximately 10,000 people, which is impressive (what's not impressive is having no kneelers there in what is supposed to be a Basilica for an International Eucharistic shrine), and compares well to the outdoor seating capacity at Medjugorje for its three-hour evening prayer program of Rosary, Mass, and Adoration. Medjugorje's prayer programme is packed every evening with pilgrims from all over the world, as are any of it's masses throughout the day. (And no before anyone tries it, I'm not interested in having any Catholic social media ding dong here about Medjugorje. Private pilgrimages to Medjugorje have always been permitted by the Church, and official diocesan pilgrimages there have been permitted by the Church since 2019, the Vatican now has it's own officially appointed Archbishop in residence there, and let's leave all pronouncements regarding the validity of the apparitions there up to the actual Church, who's current official ruling is one of "undecided". For anyone requiring any more information or having anymore questions about Medjugorje, the Medjugorje Council of Ireland have a good website here medjugorje.ie) Knock is unique to my knowledge as being the only approved Church apparition in the world primarily featuring the Lamb of God, alongside Our Lady, Saint Joseph, and Saint John the Evangelist. The Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. However, the majority of visitors to Knock shrine today, through no real fault of their own and with no guides or spiritual programme (unless they are with their own annual pilgrimage group from another Catholic group or organisation), just seem to be left to wander around directionless, wondering what all the fuss is about. It can feel like a pleasant but overall uninspiring and unimportant day in a park before they head home. This is not a slight against the people of Knock, the shrine workers, or Fr. Gibbons, who all work hard to keep the site in excellent condition. Knock is OUR national shrine and it's up to all of us to help in a big or small way for it reach its full potential . . . not always someone else. I love going to Knock and make the most of it when I do. I find it easy to get lost in prayer and thought and clear the head there, but I believe there is so much more potential. In my humble opinion, Knock Shrine and Fr. Gibbons could benefit from the assistance and presence of a few religious orders that have younger members, whether Irish or foreign, as well as more visiting priests and religious to stay for a few months at time perhaps to help out. Robert Nugent lives near Knock and is a frequent visitor there. For this recent video anyway, I congratulate and support him for absolutely hitting the nail on the head regarding the underappreciation and underutilisation of the jewel of faith Knock Shrine is, and could be : [ To be clear, I don’t always agree with Robert Nugent’s takes or endorse them; to me personally at least, they can be hit or miss, and often inconsistent, and contradictory at times. (Just my personal opinion, and like everyone else, I’m far from perfect either in word, knowledge, thought and deed). I only mention this not to critise Robert, but to stop the fallacy of ignoring the substantive point because of who made it, or how it was made. The true value of Robert's channel lies in his interviews, his Catholic travels worldwide, and his reporting of the latest Catholic news at home and abroad. No one can fault Robert for his candid openness, sincerity, the tremendous work, enthusiasm, and time he is investing in trying to spark Catholic renewal in Ireland. For that alone, he deserves admiration and support. He is someone truly dedicated to the faith in Ireland, as we all should be. ] From my own perspective, I have absolute faith that the apparition of the Lamb of God in Knock and Knock Shrine has yet to play it's most stunning and important role of all, and it will become central in the renewal and resurrection of the faith in Ireland, and I'm absolutely convinced of this. "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world." God Bless.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on May 24, 2024 11:20:53 GMT
I am not going to comment on Robert Nugent - I know him and I am not a fan. Enough said on that respect.
On the other hand I do agree with anything you say about Knock. There's no harm in being able to park in the car park in Knock, attend Mass and conduct your own personal visit, on the other hand, I know what Devotus is talking about and I agree with him. I think it's about planning and managing resources and that's easier said than done.
But to look at Knock in general (just for comparison - I've been in Lourdes, Fatima, the US National Shrine of Our Lady in Washington DC, Loreto, Altoetting in Bavaria, Mariazell in Austria, Loreto and Carfin; my spouse has been in Medjugorje, Czestochowa and there are a few others on continental Europe, in addition to most of my list). Now, Irish people like to put Knock on par with Lourdes and Fatima. I don't mean to denigrate Knock, but there is a collective need to look at this in the mirror. It's not just comparing this to Lourdes and Fatima as commercial realities - Knock compares badly with the other Shrines, except Carfin (taking the American shrine as an exception, not really useful for comparison). What's the problem? The problem is that Knock isn't equipped to accommodate visitors other than day trippers. I know there is the Knock House Hotel and I know there are convents providing accommodation, but there are not enough. All the other venues mentioned have hotels, hostels and restaurants in abundance. In Knock, you struggle to get a decent cup of tea. I recall being in Knock on a rainy August day (and it was on a day like that the original apparition happened). We went into an establishment which I can only describe as stepping back in time and being transported by time machine to the 1970s. Except for the prices which were very up to date. It seems to me that Knock hasn't moved beyond the idea that money is in trinkets and holy medals and the bulk of pilgrims bring their flasks and sandwiches. If the truth be told, Claremorris, Ballyhaunis and other neighbouring towns (Kiltimagh, Swinford, Charlestown - I know that area of Mayo very well; even Ming's hometown of Castlerea is well placed on the route as is the Longford Arms hotel with the number of buses stopping there for teas and coffees.
What I am driving at here is that I believe Mgr Horan put the cart before the horse in looking for the airport. There was little point in an airport in a place with minimal possibilities for overnight accommodation. I am not talking about profit here: I am talking about service to the visitors. I think if there was a little more investment, Knock would prove more attractive to visitors than currently and that things would improve. Maybe the fellow to advise is Francis Brennan, who is certainly not a militant secularist. Just a couple of years ago, I stumbled on a Mass in German in Knock for a group of German pilgrims. On speaking later, they were doing several places of religious interest in Ireland. But they weren't staying in Knock, they were staying in Castlebar in the west of Ireland leg of their journey. Of course they flew in and out of Dublin. This is to illustrate the lost opportunity.
But until the deficit is addressed, Knock has little significance beyond being a national shrine in Ireland. I know I am being a bit provocative here, but I want to provoke discussion.
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Post by Devotus Immaculatae on May 24, 2024 22:28:19 GMT
I too do not want to comment on any individual; in fact, I normally try to avoid it at all costs, but did so in this case only to make clear to those who may forget that quoting something good and true someone has said does not mean you endorse everything they say. So I'd ask everyone to bear that in mind if I or anyone else quotes someone's very valid points.
Discussing people should always be avoided, discussing events is ok, but the healthiest and most productive of all, and what I want to aim for, is discussing ideas and concepts and what we can do collectively for the faith, small as it might be, rather than concentrating on what we can't do, or worse what people other than ourselves are doing or saying wrong this week. The problems have all been done to death ad nauseam at this stage, we've got to get back to solutions and what we can do, small or big, and then God will do the rest. (No this is not aimed at anyone here or anywhere else).
I agree with all of Alaisdir’s points. I've been to quite a few of the shrines he’s listed, including Czestochowa. I too agree there is no harm in just being able to park the car in Knock and conduct your own personal visit. That's what locals or someone just there for a few hours do in shrines all over the world.
Knock was and still is...the packed lunch shrine, but in its current arrangement, it can only ever be the packed lunch shrine.
Even in this day and age, on a pilgrimage to Knock, if you forget to bring a packed lunch and try to scramble up the street looking for something between the few events that are on, you’ll regret it, and you’ll not forget your packed lunch the next time . . if there is a next time. Now the real question is: Why on earth does a packed lunch do grand for Knock anyway? Because it's currently a relatively short season there, and there is not enough for a full morning, afternoon, and evening pilgrimage program there to ever usually require anything else.
We could say it's a bit like the chicken and egg, which comes first? Logically, I would argue that demand usually drives services and the incentive to supply, and services and supply don't usually drive demand unless that demand is created somehow. If more hotels, accommodations, and restaurants were provided in Knock, I don't believe they would necessarily attract actual committed pilgrims without the dedicated pilgrimage, and guided prayer and sacramental programmes. That brings the graces and the graces brings the pilgrims and the pilgrims attract the service provision.
I agree with Alaisdir that Monsignor Horan put the cart before the horse in looking for the airport. I believe that if a pilgrimage and prayer program had been in place in Knock, like there is in some shrines, and the demand was high enough, demand would have started to exist for a more local airport and easier access. There are now flights from Knock to Mostar during the pilgrimage season because the demand is there, and not because the airports exist.
Medjugorje grew and thrived commercially, not because accommodations, restaurants, and shops were built there to attract visitors, but because there became a big enough demand for such services as the pilgrims started coming and kept coming in droves exponentially, regardless of and despite the complete lack of adequate facilities that were there until relatively recently. As the early Irish pilgrims to Medjugorje in the '80s can attest to, the buses stopped at each villager's house on the way in, and each house could take one or two from the bus. The villagers actually gave over their own beds and slept on the floors and asked for no money. The pilgrims, of course, insisted on paying anyway. There were no places to eat other than the villagers' homes and the odd makeshift stall. One early Irish pilgrim told me they remember well there being no toilet paper in the village for pilgrims or locals alike, and none to be got, and an old man was selling bundles of cut-up newspaper on a corner at a pittance for use as toilet paper, and he was very glad to buy some before it was soon gone. The point is the graces pouring out there totally overwhelmed any concern about lack of facilities and put them into perspective.
If people can patiently bear with me for a while longer (most especially anyone who is not predisposed to Medjugorje, and in fact may be wary of it, as I unfortunately was for 30 years) – I am going somewhere with this. The actual point I’m leading up to here is not about Medjugorje at all, but Knock...but it requires context.
I’ve chosen Medjugorje for that context only as one example, and not because it has better facilities than other pilgrimage destinations today; it does not, and not because I’m trying to claim it is more important and superior to any other pilgrimage destination in the span of history; I do not. I’m just using it as an example because Medjugorje is something that we can observe as having grown exponentially from a tiny remote townland in the literal middle of nowhere in the hills of then communist Yugoslavia, with difficult geography and topography (and still does) and then through one of the most exceptionally violent, cruel, and brutal wars in recent European memory, to what it is today, all within our lifetime – a million-plus pilgrims from all over the world per year, and a truly remarkable number of conversions and vocations (not just mere curious secular passersby who get out of the tour bus or hire car for a toilet break on a tourist trail for an hour), and most of whom stay there for a full week, fully engaged in the daily masses, sacraments, and the packed prayer and daily pilgrimage program. (As an aside, in my local diocese, every single vocation in the last 25 years has had Medjugorje play a part. Every new priest I’ve spoken to in the diocese has alluded to the fact they would most likely not have become priests but for a pilgrimage to Medjugorje. Make of that what you will.)
I hope I have not put anyone off, and distracted from the substantive point I was trying to make, by using Medjugorje as in illustration, if anyone prefers to think of another currently thriving Catholic pilgrimage centre to visualise the illustration I'm trying to make, that would be more important than getting hung up the one I happened to use because of my familiarity with it. I am not insisting that Knock should be just like Medjugorje. (Although it should be bourne in mind how successful the pilgrimage and prayer programme is there, I would argue it is the most successful one in the world at this moment, and whatever level one's faith is currently at, the pilgimage, sacrement and prayer programme there has the significant and noticeable ability in being able to raise one's faith up to a new level.) Every pilgimage site is different, with a different charism. I'll repeat here as I should, the apparitions at Medjugorje are not yet approved by the Church, even though pilgrimages there are, and I certainly do not intend this post to give any other impression. The decision concerning the apparitions at Medjugorje should be left up to the proper authorities of the Church, and not I or anyone else should be pronouncing on it's authenticity or non authenticity. The Church has been investigating Medjugorje and monitoring it since 1981, and the Church's current official position is "undecided", and it will change that only if and when it see's fit to in it's own good time.
Now...back to Knock (at last, you sigh). I’m utterly spiritually convinced (and I don’t say things like this lightly, as I know how such a claim can grate my own ears when someone else claims such a spiritual certainty) that Knock’s most important and central spiritual role in reviving the faith in Ireland and internationally, via the Lamb of God, and as an International Eucharistic and Marian shrine, has yet to come. God is going slowly to build on what the droves of ordinary Irish pilgrims and grass roots of the Irish Church have rediscoverd, relearned and renewed in Medjugorje. Those seeds from it's countless Rosary's, Masses, Sacraments, Eucharistic adoration and their graces are planted.
We need to stop seeing Knock as just a Mayo concern and leave it all to the local diocese and village of Knock and the Irish hierarchy in the west without helping. It's of national and international importance.
I do believe, even with all of today’s difficulties in the Church, it’s not impossible to aspire to having a packed daily prayer and pilgrimage program in Knock. I’m pretty sure if asked and the prayers and call went out to, for example, prominent international Catholic Eucharistic theologians and Mariologists, they could be enticed to Knock for a period to help formulate and set up a world-class daily pilgrimage and prayer program, aided and assisted by some of the relevant international religious orders devoted to the Eucharist and/or Our Lady. I don’t believe it would be impossible for that program to grow and attract significant numbers of national and international pilgrims and that in turn will drive the demand for supply. Let’s remember the majority of documented miraculous healings in Lourdes do not actually come from the Lourdes baths and water but from its Eucharistic procession.
If only we would go and do the possible, God will do the impossible. Let’s stop aspiring to having a shrine that only requires, at its most, a packed lunch visit.
Yes, of course, in the early days, a bit like Medjugorje, the lack of adequate services will be a problem, and it will be chaotic for a few years until the necessary services catch up, but it will be in a good way, not a bad way.
Now, back full circle to Monsignor Horan’s airport. Yes, it was indeed cart before horse, and even today from the shrine’s point of view it still is, but I also now see the hand of divine providence in it. If what I, and many others firmly believe about Knock will come to pass (even though I may not live to see it, and I’m happily just an irrelevant nobody), that airport will definitely be needed for Knock shrine itself, not just the region, and when it was built in the way it was built, it could only have been done there and then in that time, and it was for a future time that is unfolding. No other window in time would have made that airport possible. There's just no way it would have been possible before that or allowed today or in the foreseeable future. That’s the miracle of Knock airport on a mountain bog in the west of Ireland.
If any specific section or my exact terminology or points are imperfect, as I'm sure some of them are, and I could have put things in a better or different way, or should have chosen a different pilgrimage location to illustrate what Knock can achieve today and in the future, I apologise, please overlook those errors and consider the actual substantive point.
"Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world" John 1:29
God Bless.
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Post by annie on May 27, 2024 10:59:55 GMT
In case people have forgotten, Monsignor Horan fought for the airport for the people of the west and its name reflects that -"Ireland West Airport"
Similar to Medjugorje, most of the work in actually building it was done by volunteers. The families of some of those volunteers are still working in Knock as part of the staff.
I had an uncle who worked as a priest in Knock in Mons. Horan's time and he was full of admiration for him. He was as he described himself, an old man in a hurry. In order to bring a modicum of prosperity to the West of Ireland by bringing industry there and also to spare our emigrants the long trek across the country to the boats to work in England and maybe never return to their people, an airport was needed. Mons. Horan insisted that it had nothing to do with Knock.
The Monsignor built the Basilica by asking every family in Ireland to sponsor a brick. My uncle marvelled at the fact that people could come to Knock any day and were never asked to put a hand in their pocket. St John's Ambulance people cared for the sick and free cups of tea and sandwiches could be obtained in the St John building
My uncle lived with other priests in a building they had christened H Block as it was in the shape of an H! They heard confessions all day in the old confessional block between the car park and the old church and there were queues for confessions every day, no matter how many priests were hearing them. My uncle died in 1988 and considered his years in Knock precious beyond jewels. Mons Horan getting Pope John Paul to come there, even though he was delayed several times by others on his journey there, left my uncle amazed at the ways of Providence.
In Medjugorje, The Master Builder is at work. Similar to Knock, the apparitions happened OUTSIDE the churches and with NO clerical involvement. From the beginning, once the children told what they had seen and how on the second day the apparition invited them back at the same time the next day, the word spread throughout the villages and towns nearby and people flocked to the place to see for themselves. The state intervened and blocked access for the people to the mountain and did all they could to quell it. Fr Jozo was told in prayer to mind the children and he sheltered them in the Church as they were being chased by the police. He suggested to the children that they ask Our Lady to visit with the children in the Church. She agreed and the children had their visits in the sacristy of the church. Thanks to Vatican II, Fr Jozo was able to celebrate evening Mass at that time. The people came to the church instead of the mountain and also prayed the three parts of the Rosary each evening. Two parts before Mass and one part afterwards in thankgiving, along with prayers for healing. This is how the prayer programme was built. Our Lady's first message to the world was a plea for Peace. She said, Peace, peace and only Peace! Peace must reign between man and God and also between men. This was in 1981, long before the homeland wars. The apparition to the children would take place in the sacristy during the rosaries before Mass and the people in the church would fall silent during it, resuming their rosaries after it ended. There were manifestations in the sky and in nature to confirm the local people strongly in their faith which stood to them after Fr Jozo was taken to prison on the 15th of August for allegedly criticising the communist government when he was in fact speaking of the 40 years in the desert suffered by Moses and his companions. Other priests took Fr Jozo's place. I believe it was Fr Slavco who started the Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament and the Veneration of the Cross. This was after the parish had undergone seeing it's Church closed and boarded up and Masses being held in secret in the parish office.
Servant of God Frank Duff would see the mark of The Cross (meaning present difficulties or persecution) as a foretaste of later triumph in the matter. So it was for Medjugorje. In spite of suppression under the communist regime and later sufferings and deaths in the homeland war, the desert has bloomed, the people have been vindicated and all that remains for us is to to allow peace in the world to begin in each of our hearts by forgiving others and seeking the forgiveness of others, including God, ourselves.
May God bless you for reading this far. Thank you.
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Post by Devotus Immaculatae on May 30, 2024 11:17:22 GMT
A nice post Annie, showing the importance of our shrines and places of pilgrimage from Fatima to Częstochowa and the Holy lands and the good work they do.
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Post by Beinidict Ó Niaidh on Jun 5, 2024 16:23:49 GMT
At the end of the day, for Knock to function at its best, it needs to have the capacity to accommodate visitors. That means hotels, hostels, restaurants. It has to move beyond being what Devotus says above, that it a packed lunch venue. Now, I don't expect Five-star hotels or Michelin grade restaurants, but if there are decent places to stay and/or eat, it's enough.
Another thing, I know there is both a Polish pilgrimage to Knock and an Eastern Catholic pilgrimage to Knock (Ukrainian Greek Catholic - I think there may also be Syro-Malabarese pilgrimage for the Indians). But one of the first steps to making this an international centre is by encouraging our migrants to have their days - Lithuanians, Slovaks, Philipinos, Romanian Catholics, Nigerians could also have days and I am sure there are others.
The established TLM pilgrimage (this year on Saturday 7 September in the Blessed Sacrament Chapel at 2) is, to be brutally honest, stifled by the indifference of the clergy celebrating TLM elsewhere. I will go a step further and particularly single out Dublin and the Institute of Christ the King in Limerick for special mention as they have always behaved as if this could have nothing to do with them.
Not to quibble, but Knock is in the Archdiocese of Tuam. I know Kiltimagh, Charlestown and Swinford are all in Achonry, but Knock like Ballyhaunis and Claremorris are in Tuam. But Devotus' point is correct - it's a shrine of national importance, not just for the home diocese, even with support of their neighbour (the two are effectively combined anyway). A bit ironic the Augustinians closed their house in Ballyhaunis in recent years - that was the nearest house of regular clergy to Knock which should have been a massive advantage. At least it could have been made into one if the then Father Provincial had the foresight. But then again, the Irish Augustinians blew the Irish National Church in Rome, St Patrick's, which is now the US National Church. Yes, the Augustinians don't have the manpower, but the hierarchy should have involved themselves in the case. The same logic applies in Knock - as the Irish national church in Rome, Knock has a significance for the whole country.
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Post by Beinidict Ó Niaidh on Jun 5, 2024 16:25:59 GMT
BTW, San Giovanni Rotundo, which is in the middle of nowhere in the toe of Italy, is another case for comparison.
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Post by hibernicus on Jun 11, 2024 22:03:14 GMT
There is a Syro-Malabar pilgrimage - I've seen it on a couple of my own visits to Knock around the anniversary of the apparition. I hope it has not been affected by the ongoing liturgical dispute within that Church.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Jun 13, 2024 7:43:34 GMT
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Post by Devotus Immaculatae on Jun 13, 2024 11:30:34 GMT
Good flyer for it and Knock as well
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