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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2023 0:09:28 GMT
I'm looking for recommendations for Irish history books, closer to the academic end of the spectrum than to the popular end, that give Christianity its due -- not simply the standard, cynical narrative about the Church's 'social control' in Ireland through the centuries, and above all the twentieth century; nor the story of a magical 'Celtic Christianity' that was ruined by the influence of the established Roman Church.
I've been reading the Oxford Illustrated History of Ireland, edited by R.F. Foster, as a primer. I also have Foster's Modern Ireland, which I have yet to start (and may not). Foster, and the authors he chose to write articles for the Oxford book, are all, as far as I can tell, in the Revisionist camp. That's not a slight -- that's the term Foster uses for himself (see: 'We Are All Revisionists Now' by R.F. Foster, The Irish Review, 1986). But it's clear that in 'revising' the historical record for its inaccurate narratives and romanticism, the Revisionists are inevitably creating their own narratives, which may or may not be accurate. The Revisionists tend to downplay the religious and patriotic motives of Irish people in favour of power-dynamic and economic rationales.
What books or authors would you recommend to learn about Ireland's medieval and modern periods, neither cynical and power-obsessed nor unrealistically romantic? I'm less interested in the specific military exploits of Brian Boru (or whoever) than in the social and religious movements and ideas through the ages. And I'm not necessarily looking for a 'Catholic' historian, just one who takes Christianity's contributions and conflicts seriously (for example, Johannes Fried, in his book, The Middle Ages, does this for medieval Europe). I'm not sure if that proposal ('Christianity's contributions') would make sense to a medieval friar immersed in a Christian culture (it might be like asking a fish about the contributions of 'water'), but it works for us moderns.
Would anyone recommend Michael Richter and his book Medieval Ireland: The Enduring Tradition?
In case people are interested in podcasts, perhaps there are a few good ones that could be recommended? The "Irish History Podcast," though perfectly adequate on, say, the War of Independence, is not one I'd recommend without many pinches of salt.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2023 1:18:22 GMT
An example of a stale narrative, recounted by David Fitzpatrick in The Oxford Illustrated History. Fitzpatrick was singled out in Foster's Irish review article as a historian doing exceptional work.
Fitzpatrick:
"Economic stagnation and isolation fostered the cult of self-sufficiency without frills. Already under Cosgrave the state had intervened to restrict cultural and sexual freedom... Fianna Fail reinforced this puritanical code by banning importation and sale of contraceptives in 1935.... The state's controls over cinema, reading, and contraception were not substantially relaxed until 1964, 1967, and 1979 respectively. These forlorn attempts to insulate the people from 'Anglicization' were accompanied by still more futile measures to restore the national language and hence, perhaps, the supposed values of Gaelic civilization."
Later:
"Emigration from both states continued to provide an essential escape route for men and particularly women who found the property match repugnant and the repression of sexuality outside marriage unacceptable. For the residual Catholic population, the moral code which governed the public expression of their private lives was closer to Victorian puritanism than to Gaelic licentiousness."
He goes on to explain the Church's hand in all of this, in its pursuit of ultimate control of Irish society. It is simply painful to read. Not only because it's laden with his own prejudice, but because it's so unoriginal. It's the standard fare in the Irish press and among the Irish literary stars and has been for decades, and goodness is it dull. Granted, Fitzpatrick was writing this in the 80's before, I guess, it became utterly banal. But it was no great insight then, either.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Sept 6, 2023 13:14:13 GMT
Would anyone recommend Michael Richter and his book Medieval Ireland: The Enduring Tradition? Hibernicus is without a doubt the best on Modern History, but I have the edge on early and mediaeval history with a background in Latin and Old and Middle Irish. So I will answer the above question. Absolutely not. Professor Richter's book came out to widespread panning by every serious Celtic scholar and mediaeval historian at the time and I remember talking to a non-specialist about it and he said he could see problems with it. The Richter book tried to replace the first six volumes of the older Gill History of Ireland series published in the early 1970s and by common consensus, did not do a good job. If there is a single volume covering mediaeval Irish history or the early Christian period that is current and good - I don't know. But I can tell you that the Richter book is regarded as a useful catalogue of all that is erroneous in Irish history from the immediate Pre-Patrician period to the Reformation.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2023 16:52:54 GMT
If there is a single volume covering mediaeval Irish history or the early Christian period that is current and good - I don't know. But I can tell you that the Richter book is regarded as a useful catalogue of all that is erroneous in Irish history from the immediate Pre-Patrician period to the Reformation. Thanks, Alaisdir. Good to know. I probably would have bought Richter's book if I didn't hear anything against it. Are there any historians/scholars that you would recommend? To narrow it down, I have a fairly decent grasp of early Christian Ireland, up until, say, the arrival of the Vikings, or even, to a lesser degree, the Norman invasion. I'm not much interested in the Druids or pre-Christian Ireland. So would you recommend any books in the post-Viking, pre-Henry VIII period, or thereabouts? It doesn't need to be a single volume covering the whole period. I'm most interested in the state of Gaelic culture and Christianity prior to its suppression (or even prior to the Normans). Was it really as licentious as Fitzpatrick and others say it was? Was it a kind of cafeteria Catholicism? I do get that impression, especially among the upper echelon of Gaelic clans. But I suppose the same was true of the Catholic aristocracy on the Continent. Hopefully, Hibernicus will hop online in the next few days and offer his thoughts on resources for the modern period. Maybe Foster's Modern Ireland is worth my while, but I'd like to have sources other than Foster and his clan.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Sept 7, 2023 14:51:30 GMT
Would anyone recommend Michael Richter and his book Medieval Ireland: The Enduring Tradition? Hibernicus is without a doubt the best on Modern History, but I have the edge on early and mediaeval history with a background in Latin and Old and Middle Irish. So I will answer the above question. Absolutely not. Professor Richter's book came out to widespread panning by every serious Celtic scholar and mediaeval historian at the time and I remember talking to a non-specialist about it and he said he could see problems with it. The Richter book tried to replace the first six volumes of the older Gill History of Ireland series published in the early 1970s and by common consensus, did not do a good job. If there is a single volume covering mediaeval Irish history or the early Christian period that is current and good - I don't know. But I can tell you that the Richter book is regarded as a useful catalogue of all that is erroneous in Irish history from the immediate Pre-Patrician period to the Reformation. Well, Irish history begins with Christianity - anything before is either archaeological interpretation (useful, but never total) or speculation.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Sept 7, 2023 14:56:55 GMT
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Sept 7, 2023 15:21:40 GMT
There are two areas you can look in the pre-reformation period. One is the Gill History of Ireland, cited above which have six volumes covering early and mediaeval Irish history. Another is Monsignor Corish's series A History of Irish Catholicism, published around the same time - he is the editor rather than the author, but he did work on some of the volumes.
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Post by Beinidict Ó Niaidh on Sept 7, 2023 16:09:37 GMT
If there is a single volume covering mediaeval Irish history or the early Christian period that is current and good - I don't know. But I can tell you that the Richter book is regarded as a useful catalogue of all that is erroneous in Irish history from the immediate Pre-Patrician period to the Reformation. Thanks, Alaisdir. Good to know. I probably would have bought Richter's book if I didn't hear anything against it. Are there any historians/scholars that you would recommend? To narrow it down, I have a fairly decent grasp of early Christian Ireland, up until, say, the arrival of the Vikings, or even, to a lesser degree, the Norman invasion. I'm not much interested in the Druids or pre-Christian Ireland. So would you recommend any books in the post-Viking, pre-Henry VIII period, or thereabouts? It doesn't need to be a single volume covering the whole period. You could start with the essays in the RTÉ/Mercier Press The Course of Irish History, if you haven't already. Displaced aristocrats become pious very quickly. But one observation - Gaelic aristocrats in Ireland and Scotland were reviled for the excessive amounts of requests for dispensations in respect of consanguinity. However, the request indicates the respect for authority. Continental aristocrats never bothered.d
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2023 5:45:48 GMT
There are two areas you can look in the pre-reformation period. One is the Gill History of Ireland, cited above which have six volumes covering early and mediaeval Irish history. Another is Monsignor Corish's series A History of Irish Catholicism, published around the same time - he is the editor rather than the author, but he did work on some of the volumes. That looks like an interesting blog, if a poorly formatted one. I'll see if I can find a way to make it more legible. I thought the implication was that the Gill History of Ireland was due to be replaced, but Richter's attempt was not a good one. Is it still good source, then? In any case, the only set I can find is well out of my budget. I can find several (affordable) volumes from the A History of Irish Catholicism series, so I may start there, along with The Course of Irish History, as suggested by Beinidict. Beinidict, that is interesting, re: dispensation requests of Gaelic aristocrats. But wasn't divorce written into the Gaelic legal codes (among other un-Catholic things)? Are the dispensations from a later period, after the reforms of the 12th century, perhaps?
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Post by Beinidict Ó Niaidh on Sept 8, 2023 11:41:06 GMT
There are two areas you can look in the pre-reformation period. One is the Gill History of Ireland, cited above which have six volumes covering early and mediaeval Irish history. Another is Monsignor Corish's series A History of Irish Catholicism, published around the same time - he is the editor rather than the author, but he did work on some of the volumes. That looks like an interesting blog, if a poorly formatted one. I'll see if I can find a way to make it more legible. I thought the implication was that the Gill History of Ireland was due to be replaced, but Richter's attempt was not a good one. Is it still good source, then? In any case, the only set I can find is well out of my budget. I can find several (affordable) volumes from the A History of Irish Catholicism series, so I may start there, along with The Course of Irish History, as suggested by Beinidict. Beinidict, that is interesting, re: dispensation requests of Gaelic aristocrats. But wasn't divorce written into the Gaelic legal codes (among other un-Catholic things)? Are the dispensations from a later period, after the reforms of the 12th century, perhaps? There were a couple of essays by Peadar Laighléis in the Brandsma Review in the mid 1990s about divorce in early Irish law that haven't been uploaded onto the Fides et Goedelica blog yet that asked questions about this. One of his main points was that divorce was a very convenient translation of the old Irish imscarad which may not have been entirely accurate. That would be to reduce the research at bit much as it looked into the marital norms a bit further. I suppose you could say that establishing Christian marriage anywhere - not just in Ireland - was a work in progress for a long time and still is in much of Africa, while the west sees the family collapsing at the seems. The problem is to regard Ireland as unique and it's also important to say we are really only talking about the upper classes.
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 9, 2023 21:59:10 GMT
A few observations: Monsignor Corish's book THE IRISH CATHOLIC EXPERIENCE might be a good one-volume introduction from the 80s. The HISTORY OF IRISH CATHOLICISM of which he was editor was never completed and what was published amounts to a series of pamphlets which are difficult to obtain and don't provide comprehensive coverage. Bear in mind also that Mgr Corish was an organisation man and thus not inclined to be over-critical. The basic difference between revisionism and anti-revisionism is whether Irish nationalism (however defined) is to be taken as self-evident and self-explanatory, or whether it is to be treated as a historical phenomenon which requires analysis and exploration. (I say "however defined" because the writer often smuggles in a lot of their own assumptions and treats the result as the only legitimate form of Irish nationalism. Sean Cronin does this with his form of republican socialism and Desmond Fennell with his decentralised communitarianism.) A lot of old-style Catholic history falls into the same mistake, and takes it as unthinkable that the Irish might ever have ceased to be Catholic.
One historical narrative which doesn't get as much attention as it deserves is James Lydon's HISTORY OF IRELAND. I'm not sure how much attention it gives to religion, but Lydon's mediaevalism gives him a very strong sense of how the same constitutional issues recurred over the centuries. (It is not strong on pre-Norman Ireland.) The increasing dominance of modern historians within the profession means that these sort of continuities and recurrences tend to be overlooked.
Another book from the 70s which is worth a look is Patrick O'Farrell's IRELAND'S ENGLISH QUESTION. It was written by an Australian liberal Catholic with certain axes to grind (he thought Australian catholicism needed to be emancipated from the Hiberno-Roman model and become naturalised) but he does take Catholicism seriously as a causal factor.
Mary Kenny's GOODBYE TO CATHOLIC IRELAND from the 90s is a bit self-consciously ditzy but it does try to explore faith as seen from within.
Two problems with Irish Catholic history: (a) it tends to be written in a political framework, in terms of relations with the nationalist movement, rather than as a distinctive phenomenon (b) Following the model of Emmet Larkin's monumental multi-volume history of the C19 Irish Catholic church, a lot of it is written from the bishops' perspective.
A couple of very distinguished modern historians, both of whom I would describe as pretty secular, have remarked to me that academic studies of Irish catholicism have tended to overemphasise its social role at the expense of actual belief, so I think there is some awareness that there is a gap in understanding.
BTW I will say this - I have had some contact with Fitzpatrick (now deceased) and Foster, and while their worldviews are not mine and they can be condescending in different ways, both were extremely fine historians with strong analytical powers who have added a great deal to our knowledge of modern Irish history. They can be disagreed with but not ignored. I'll try to put up some more thoughts in the next few days as I find time.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2023 23:39:32 GMT
One historical narrative which doesn't get as much attention as it deserves is James Lydon's HISTORY OF IRELAND. I'm not sure how much attention it gives to religion, but Lydon's mediaevalism gives him a very strong sense of how the same constitutional issues recurred over the centuries. (It is not strong on pre-Norman Ireland.) The increasing dominance of modern historians within the profession means that these sort of continuities and recurrences tend to be overlooked. Another book from the 70s which is worth a look is Patrick O'Farrell's IRELAND'S ENGLISH QUESTION. It was written by an Australian liberal Catholic with certain axes to grind (he thought Australian catholicism needed to be emancipated from the Hiberno-Roman model and become naturalised) but he does take Catholicism seriously as a causal factor. Mary Kenny's GOODBYE TO CATHOLIC IRELAND from the 90s is a bit self-consciously ditzy but it does try to explore faith as seen from within. Two problems with Irish Catholic history: (a) it tends to be written in a political framework, in terms of relations with the nationalist movement, rather than as a distinctive phenomenon (b) Following the model of Emmet Larkin's monumental multi-volume history of the C19 Irish Catholic church, a lot of it is written from the bishops' perspective. A couple of very distinguished modern historians, both of whom I would describe as pretty secular, have remarked to me that academic studies of Irish catholicism have tended to overemphasise its social role at the expense of actual belief, so I think there is some awareness that there is a gap in understanding. BTW I will say this - I have had some contact with Fitzpatrick (now deceased) and Foster, and while their worldviews are not mine and they can be condescending in different ways, both were extremely fine historians with strong analytical powers who have added a great deal to our knowledge of modern Irish history. They can be disagreed with but not ignored. Can you clarify which Lydon book you are referring to? As far as I can tell, he never wrote a book called History of Ireland (he is listed as an editor of the Gill History of Ireland, but I don't think that's what you mean). Other possibilities would be Lydon's Ireland in the Later Middle Ages or The Making of Ireland or Ireland and the English Crown. All sound quite good, really. I found Foster quite good at times, though maybe not entirely convincing, but I notice you didn't recommend his Modern Ireland. Would you? I simply found Fitzpatrick too prejudiced once he reached c.1930. It didn't feel like I was reading the work of a historian with strong analytical powers, more like the work of university student who is out of his depths. I am always baffled by historians or op-ed columnists who reduce Catholic moral teaching to puritanical attempts to control the private lives of citizens. There is a great wealth of writings on Christian ethics or moral theology all the way back to the first centuries until the present -- but, really, all that is a cover for a patriarchal attempt to impose a prudish Victorian morality? I'm well aware of the failures of the Church in Ireland as elsewhere to explain moral teaching well, and how it became legalistic (see The Sources of Christian Ethics by Servais Pinckaers), but surely a historian worth his salt should be able to see beyond the failures of a generation of clergy to the foundations of the moral teachings he or she finds so disagreeable. Hence my exasperation with Fitzpatrick. But as you said, there has been a tendency to overemphasize the Church's social role "at the expense of actual belief." A side note, re: Mary Kenny. I'm very confused by her position in Irish society and the Church, and I have been for years. She was a very vocal, very radical feminist, who campaigned for easy access to contraception in the name of women's liberation (and her feminism doesn't seem to have ended there). And yet she writes for The Irish Catholic and is a serious figure worth reading on the history of the Church in Ireland? I have read a few articles written by her -- none were enlightening. Does she even have a strong grasp on what Catholicism is about? What am I missing?
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Post by Young Ireland on Sept 10, 2023 10:19:50 GMT
One historical narrative which doesn't get as much attention as it deserves is James Lydon's HISTORY OF IRELAND. I'm not sure how much attention it gives to religion, but Lydon's mediaevalism gives him a very strong sense of how the same constitutional issues recurred over the centuries. (It is not strong on pre-Norman Ireland.) The increasing dominance of modern historians within the profession means that these sort of continuities and recurrences tend to be overlooked. Another book from the 70s which is worth a look is Patrick O'Farrell's IRELAND'S ENGLISH QUESTION. It was written by an Australian liberal Catholic with certain axes to grind (he thought Australian catholicism needed to be emancipated from the Hiberno-Roman model and become naturalised) but he does take Catholicism seriously as a causal factor. Mary Kenny's GOODBYE TO CATHOLIC IRELAND from the 90s is a bit self-consciously ditzy but it does try to explore faith as seen from within. Two problems with Irish Catholic history: (a) it tends to be written in a political framework, in terms of relations with the nationalist movement, rather than as a distinctive phenomenon (b) Following the model of Emmet Larkin's monumental multi-volume history of the C19 Irish Catholic church, a lot of it is written from the bishops' perspective. A couple of very distinguished modern historians, both of whom I would describe as pretty secular, have remarked to me that academic studies of Irish catholicism have tended to overemphasise its social role at the expense of actual belief, so I think there is some awareness that there is a gap in understanding. BTW I will say this - I have had some contact with Fitzpatrick (now deceased) and Foster, and while their worldviews are not mine and they can be condescending in different ways, both were extremely fine historians with strong analytical powers who have added a great deal to our knowledge of modern Irish history. They can be disagreed with but not ignored. Can you clarify which Lydon book you are referring to? As far as I can tell, he never wrote a book called History of Ireland (he is listed as an editor of the Gill History of Ireland, but I don't think that's what you mean). Other possibilities would be Lydon's Ireland in the Later Middle Ages or The Making of Ireland or Ireland and the English Crown. All sound quite good, really. I found Foster quite good at times, though maybe not entirely convincing, but I notice you didn't recommend his Modern Ireland. Would you? I simply found Fitzpatrick too prejudiced once he reached c.1930. It didn't feel like I was reading the work of a historian with strong analytical powers, more like the work of university student who is out of his depths. I am always baffled by historians or op-ed columnists who reduce Catholic moral teaching to puritanical attempts to control the private lives of citizens. There is a great wealth of writings on Christian ethics or moral theology all the way back to the first centuries until the present -- but, really, all that is a cover for a patriarchal attempt to impose a prudish Victorian morality? I'm well aware of the failures of the Church in Ireland as elsewhere to explain moral teaching well, and how it became legalistic (see The Sources of Christian Ethics by Servais Pinckaers), but surely a historian worth his salt should be able to see beyond the failures of a generation of clergy to the foundations of the moral teachings he or she finds so disagreeable. Hence my exasperation with Fitzpatrick. But as you said, there has been a tendency to overemphasize the Church's social role "at the expense of actual belief." A side note, re: Mary Kenny. I'm very confused by her position in Irish society and the Church, and I have been for years. She was a very vocal, very radical feminist, who campaigned for easy access to contraception in the name of women's liberation (and her feminism doesn't seem to have ended there). And yet she writes for The Irish Catholic and is a serious figure worth reading on the history of the Church in Ireland? I have read a few articles written by her -- none were enlightening. Does she even have a strong grasp on what Catholicism is about? What am I missing? In relation to Mary Kenny, it's quite possible for people to change their views as they grow older, so I wouldn't necessarily write her off based on that.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2023 15:06:04 GMT
I suppose that is my question, and the source of my confusion -- did she change her views?
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Post by Beinidict Ó Niaidh on Sept 11, 2023 20:36:41 GMT
I suppose that is my question, and the source of my confusion -- did she change her views? Sometime during the 1980s when her sons were young, Mary Kenny did a dramatic volte face and was rejected by her former colleagues in the feminist movement. She also moved towards contributing to British conservative publications like the Daily Telegraph and Spectator. She began vocally being Catholic, though she goes very silent on Humanae Vitae. In the 1990s, David Quinn invited her to contribute to the Irish Catholic. I remember my mother and aunt comment on how much she changed. I also remember the late journalist Kevin Marron address the former student leader Joe Duffy who went even further left, before ultimately carving himself an establishment niche. Marron said to Duffy (around the mid 1980s): "Don't do a Mary Kenny on me", half tongue in cheek but very much hinting at his (ultimately correct) belief that Joe Duffy would do a u-turn similar to one made earlier by Mary Kenny. As to how wild Mary Kenny was prior to her reversion to Catholicism, look up the origin of the term "Ugandan discussions".
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