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Post by maolsheachlann on Sept 5, 2018 12:45:57 GMT
there are certainly people who would start singing a different tune. The simple fact is, when it comes to race, white people are held to a different standard. It's why, verbally white people dare not thread where other races will. The expectations and consequences are simply different. Simply look to the case of Sarah Jeong and the New York Times for a taste of this double-standard. An Asian woman makes a series of racist messages about white people on Twitter, and it's defended and played down as much as possible, with some rags even trying to make her out to be the victim. Had this been a white person, we know too well what would have happened. We would see no end to the comments about her racism, how NYT is a white supremacist outlet, how such a thing was a sign of the rise of fascism and Nazism, etc. Of course, that's assuming the NYT would stand by a white person for making such comments after a simple distancing themselves from the actual messages. They wouldn't.It is hypocrisy. A hypocrisy that dictates whites cannot complain about racism towards them, due to such a thing paradoxically being racist itself. Or Jacob Zuma singing "Kill the Boer" on stage. Can you imagine if Donald Trump were to do something like this?! Or this incident, which caused less outrage than someone being arrested for loitering in Starbucks. Yes, there is a definite double standard. Generally, when liberals and PC conservatives are confronted with such examples, they say: "I also condemn this." Yes...but they don't. They'll only do so if they are backed into a corner, never unprompted.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 13:19:00 GMT
In the case of Zuma, they would simply say that it's out of our control since he is in Africa and not the Western world.
In regards to the young disabled man who was tortured, many people - including someone I kind of know - were too busy drawing comparisons between the disabled man being tortured and Trump supposedly mocking a disabled reporter, therefore attempting to play down the seriousness of the issue. I ended up confronting the idiot as well as a feminist friend of his, which pretty much immediately forced him to backpedal and try to claim there is no comparison despite just having made a comparison.
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Post by Young Ireland on Sept 5, 2018 15:52:21 GMT
It seems to matter to the people who have such a fetish for diversity that they are willing to allow large numbers of women and children to be brutally raped and then cover it up. It seems to matter to some Germans, who think that becoming a racial minority in their own country is good, because it means the "Nazis" (see, German people) are dying off. It seems to matter to the hypocrites who whinge and complain to us about having too many children and over-populating the world, yet then announce how we don't have enough people to make up the future generations, so now we'll be importing our new people from anywhere else. It seems to matter to the people in this country who are all tears and shame when it comes to people in other parts of the world suffering, yet have apathy (at best) or contempt (at worst) for the people within their own country. It's interesting how there are so many Irish families who have to put up with being homeless, yet we've done such a fantastic job of putting up migrants in hotels, etc. It also seems to matter to the police in Britain who were supposedly too afraid of dealing with Pakistani gangs who abducted, raped, and prostituted white and Sikh girls for fear of being called racist. It also seemed to matter to the rapists themselves, whose reasoning was that the girls were fair game for being both non-Muslim and white. It also seems to matter to regressive types who try to claim race is a social construct, yet who have made their fame and fortune off of race-baiting over even the most inane issues.
It's quite astounding that not wanting your race to die off due to the incompetence and hypocrisy of those in positions of power is somehow racist, yet to treat a race of people with such contempt is not.
It is one side of the same coin of what you propose to hate, Young Ireland. It's simply an opposite extreme. Either one is a form of racial discrimination or worse. Creating classes based on race, criminalising mixed-races marriages, etc - discrimination against the foreigner. Apathy or contempt towards the original/once majority race, hypocrisy in how the origin race and foreign races are dealt with, slandering as racist when the origin race merely raises questions while allowing foreign races to run rampant screaming about nonexistent racism which forces people to kowtow in fear, etc - discrimination of the origin race.
I honestly believe, Young Ireland, that had this situation been in reverse - that had this been a case of mass amounts of white people going to non-white countries - people like you would be the first to pipe up, decrying the situation as putting a racial burden on non-white countries. I believe, then, you wouldn't so nonchalantly brush it off as an insignificant consequence of the great cultural movement and diversifying of the world, or that as long as the people integrate into those countries it will be unimportant. Even if not you, there are certainly people who would start singing a different tune.
The simple fact is, when it comes to race, white people are held to a different standard. It's why, verbally white people dare not thread where other races will. The expectations and consequences are simply different. Simply look to the case of Sarah Jeong and the New York Times for a taste of this double-standard. An Asian woman makes a series of racist messages about white people on Twitter, and it's defended and played down as much as possible, with some rags even trying to make her out to be the victim. Had this been a white person, we know too well what would have happened. We would see no end to the comments about her racism, how NYT is a white supremacist outlet, how such a thing was a sign of the rise of fascism and Nazism, etc. Of course, that's assuming the NYT would stand by a white person for making such comments after a simple distancing themselves from the actual messages. They wouldn't. It is hypocrisy. A hypocrisy that dictates whites cannot complain about racism towards them, due to such a thing paradoxically being racist itself.
Where to begin? First of all, your accusation that pro-immigrationists are responsible for the crimes of a minority of immigrants is patently absurd. How would you like it if you were held responsible for the deaths in Germany last week? Would you be fine with that? What's more, it's an utter strawman, like saying that all Irish people are responsible for Planned Parenthood simply because they share a nationality with Margaret Sanger, who happened to be an Irish-American. Also, would you be as concerned if the perpetrators were white? Or are you just using the victims as a pretext to further your own agenda? As it happens, race has nothing to do with such atrocious behaviour and I don't think that any reasonable person would claim that they should not be brought to justice. It is you who is calling your views racist, and I completely agree. It's ironic that you cry slander when the logical implications of your views are pointed out, yet you apparently have no problem slandering those who disagree with you when it suits your purposes. Of course the claim that only whites can be racist is ridiculous: anyone who has studied Zimbabwe, the Nation of Islam or Imperial Japan can tell you that. But pointing to examples of non-white racism cannot justify your own racism, and that tactic is called whataboutism. Did someone do something to you to spark such disdain for immigrants in general and Muslims in particular? Or maybe you need to take a break from YouTube for a while. In any case, I think that best thing you could do is leave of your own accord before you are shown the door.
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Post by maolsheachlann on Sept 5, 2018 16:26:10 GMT
If demonising immigrants or Muslims for the crimes of others in that group is wrong, why doesn't the same apply to white people? And yes, Young Ireland, the claim that anti-white racism is impossible is very frequent indeed.
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Post by Young Ireland on Sept 5, 2018 16:27:45 GMT
If demonising immigrants or Muslims for the crimes of others in that group is wrong, why doesn't the same apply to white people? And yes, Young Ireland, the claim that anti-white racism is impossible is very frequent indeed. Where did I say it doesn't? Of course it does.
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Post by maolsheachlann on Sept 5, 2018 16:39:03 GMT
Well, you were willing to indict America for being a racist society because someone was arrested for loitering in Starbucks. It seems perfectly fine io extrapolate from such incidents to diagnose a problem with a society. And what claims of institutional racism boil down to is is that white Americans are racist, or enough of them to make it a valid generalisation. But if anyone makes such a generalisation of Muslims or immigrants, you cry racism.
By the way, for this very reason, I don't really get into the whole question of immigration and crime. I'm not into collective guilt for anyone.
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Post by maolsheachlann on Sept 5, 2018 16:44:06 GMT
I won't intervene further in this discussion except to say I completely agree with Antaine about PC double standards and hypocrisy. I don't really like the concept of race though. I'm neither proud nor guilty of being white and I think all social policy and ethical systems should be entirely colour-blind. And that can't happen with the endless race-baiting we have today.
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Post by Young Ireland on Sept 5, 2018 16:46:13 GMT
Well, you were willing to indict America for being a racist society because someone was arrested for loitering in Starbucks. It seems perfectly fine io extrapolate from such incidents to diagnose a problem with a society. And what claims of institutional racism boil down to is is that white Americans are racist, or enough of them to make it a valid generalisation. But if anyone makes such a generalisation of Muslims or immigrants, you cry racism. By the way, for this very reason, I don't really get into the whole question of immigration and crime. I'm not into collective guilt for anyone. That point would only be valid if I said that this is only a problem with whites. I would argue that Asian societies are generally more racist than European ones. Look at China's treatment of its ethnic minorities, or India's caste system. Indeed, I would argue that some African governments (like Zimbabwe) are more interested in settling old scores than they are in improving economic conditions, which is a proven antidote to racism and xenophobia.
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Post by maolsheachlann on Sept 5, 2018 16:51:52 GMT
Well, you were willing to indict America for being a racist society because someone was arrested for loitering in Starbucks. It seems perfectly fine io extrapolate from such incidents to diagnose a problem with a society. And what claims of institutional racism boil down to is is that white Americans are racist, or enough of them to make it a valid generalisation. But if anyone makes such a generalisation of Muslims or immigrants, you cry racism. By the way, for this very reason, I don't really get into the whole question of immigration and crime. I'm not into collective guilt for anyone. That point would only be valid if I said that this is only a problem with whites. I would argue that Asian societies are generally more racist than European ones. Look at China's treatment of its ethnic minorities, or India's caste system. Indeed, I would argue that some African governments (like Zimbabwe) are more interested in settling old scores than they are in improving economic conditions, which is a proven antidote to racism and xenophobia. Would you have made that concession without being backed into a corner? Besides, it doesn't affect the double standard at all. Collective guilt for all or collective guilt for none. If a Muslim blowing himself up in the name of Allah doesn't reflect on Muslims in general (and virtually. nobody ever argues all Muslims are to blame), then we should hold all individuals to blame for their own misdeeds and stop assigning collective guilt. Which is actually my policy.
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Post by Young Ireland on Sept 5, 2018 16:56:08 GMT
That point would only be valid if I said that this is only a problem with whites. I would argue that Asian societies are generally more racist than European ones. Look at China's treatment of its ethnic minorities, or India's caste system. Indeed, I would argue that some African governments (like Zimbabwe) are more interested in settling old scores than they are in improving economic conditions, which is a proven antidote to racism and xenophobia. Would you have made that concession without being backed into a corner? Besides, it doesn't affect the double standard at all. Collective guilt for all or collective guilt for none. If a Muslim blowing himself up in the name of Allah doesn't reflect on Muslims in general (and virtually. nobody ever argues all Muslims are to blame), then we should hold all individuals to blame for their own misdeeds and stop assigning collective guilt. Which is actually my policy. Do I need to make that concession every single time though? And while it is true that very few explicitly blame Muslims collectively for terrorism, it is widely implied in some circles that the vast majority of them are indeed at least potential terrorists. Given our own experience with terrorism in Ireland, I think the Golden Rule applies.
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Post by maolsheachlann on Sept 5, 2018 17:01:20 GMT
No, I don't think you need to make that concession every time. And to be fair you do seem to dislike all ethnic loyalties whatsoever. But you would probably admit that anti-racists rarely have anything to say about anything but purported white racism. Mal out for this discussion.
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Post by Young Ireland on Sept 5, 2018 17:07:23 GMT
No, I don't think you need to make that concession every time. And to be fair you do seem to dislike all ethnic loyalties whatsoever. But you would probably admit that anti-racists rarely have anything to say about anything but purported white racism. Mal out for this discussion. In fairness, you are right there. The fact that many anti-racists do indeed seem to have blinkers with regard to non-white racism doesn't mean that they are wrong when it comes to calling out white racism, just hypocritical.
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Post by maolsheachlann on Sept 5, 2018 18:37:41 GMT
I will add one other thing, not related to the subject immedately under discussion. I started this thread immediately after the abortion referendum, at a time when many Catholics were calling for an end to cultural Catholicism. I thought it would be interesting to do a stock-take of all the areas where Catholicism retains a place in the public square in Ireland. I wonder if it is really wise to relinquish them, even though some are certainly cancerous and need to be cut off at this stage. I don't think people really understood what I was getting at with the thread subject. I still think this would be a discussion worth having. It's frustrating that every discussion about Catholicism, amongst orthodox Irish Catholics, seems to descend to bashing the bishops and agreeing we need better catechesis. We've been there for the last twenty years. What is the point of endlessly repeating it? We have no power in the first area and precious little in the second.
I'm not trying to subvert this forum into endless discussions on populist subjects. In fact, I will probably refrain from posting or joining in on any discussions of populism or PC here in the foreseeable future.
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Post by Young Ireland on Sept 5, 2018 18:49:02 GMT
I will add one other thing, not related to the subject immedately under discussion. I started this thread immediately after the abortion referendum, at a time when many Catholics were calling for an end to cultural Catholicism. I thought it would be interesting to do a stock-take of all the areas where Catholicism retains a place in the public square in Ireland. I wonder if it is really wise to relinquish them, even though some are certainly cancerous and need to be cut off at this stage. I don't think people really understood what I was getting at with the thread subject. I still think this would be a discussion worth having. It's frustrating that every discussion about Catholicism, amongst orthodox Irish Catholics, seems to descend to bashing the bishops and agreeing we need better catechesis. We've been there for the last twenty years. What is the point of endlessly repeating it? We have no power in the first area and precious little in the second. I'm not trying to subvert this forum into endless discussions on populist subjects. In fact, I will probably refrain from posting or joining in on any discussions of populism or PC here in the foreseeable future. I highly commend you for your resolution. To be honest, I was considering my future on the board as I felt the atmosphere had become too polarised, though I accept some responsibility for this. I will continue to respond to Antaine's comments thou gh as they do need to be countered, but my own tendency is to move away from such discussions altogether.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2018 14:55:49 GMT
Where to begin? First of all, your accusation that pro-immigrationists are responsible for the crimes of a minority of immigrants is patently absurd. How would you like it if you were held responsible for the deaths in Germany last week? Would you be fine with that? What's more, it's an utter strawman, like saying that all Irish people are responsible for Planned Parenthood simply because they share a nationality with Margaret Sanger, who happened to be an Irish-American. Also, would you be as concerned if the perpetrators were white? Or are you just using the victims as a pretext to further your own agenda? As it happens, race has nothing to do with such atrocious behaviour and I don't think that any reasonable person would claim that they should not be brought to justice. It is you who is calling your views racist, and I completely agree. It's ironic that you cry slander when the logical implications of your views are pointed out, yet you apparently have no problem slandering those who disagree with you when it suits your purposes. Of course the claim that only whites can be racist is ridiculous: anyone who has studied Zimbabwe, the Nation of Islam or Imperial Japan can tell you that. But pointing to examples of non-white racism cannot justify your own racism, and that tactic is called whataboutism. Did someone do something to you to spark such disdain for immigrants in general and Muslims in particular? Or maybe you need to take a break from YouTube for a while. In any case, I think that best thing you could do is leave of your own accord before you are shown the door.
By all means, continue to reply to me. I'm enjoying this now. At one time, I was willing to put this all down to a misunderstanding of where we might be coming from, and perhaps a bit of bias stubbornness on both our parts. Now I see that you are a little slicker than that.
I enjoy how you try to brush off my remarks on pro-immigrationists, despite my mentioning - past and present - examples of how they have directly helped cover up migrant criminals, therefore allowing them to offend again, as well as emboldening them and other migrants; all the while cursing out their fellow citizens as racists, Islamophobes, and bigots for merely having concerns. Why would I be held responsible for what happens in Germany? Am I telling rape victims to refrain from being "spiteful" and keep quiet so some poor rapist doesn't get sent back to where they came from? Or telling German folk to stop being racist and shut up or else I'll arrest them for hate crimes?
The Margaret Sanger comparison is nonsensical. Was Sanger doing it because she was Irish? I'd love to see the connection between her being Irish and wanting to bring in abortion, among many other unnatural atrocities.
Would I care if it was a horde of white German men who raped women on the night of Cologne? Or it was British gangs abducting young girls to prostitute and rape in the UK? Uh, yeah, because unlike the sycophants desperate to defend even the most vile criminal migrant, I take a merciless attitude towards anyone who would rape. Same if it were whites carrying out terrorist attacks or assaulting people in the streets. Furthermore, if there was some pattern connecting these white criminals, I would look for it and act on it. I imagine it would be very useful. You're one to talk about having an agenda, Young Ireland.
Also, I have not said race causes people to be more prone to crime; but people who are committing these atrocities happen to be from a culture with a particular majority race. We've had this conversation before. You must be clutching at straws to be bringing this one up again.
O, you're so clever Young Ireland. Taking something I said, and telling everyone I said something else. Keep it up and you'll be advancing from playground to primary school insults soon. I have not slandered anyone who has done no wrong; only pointed out those who have done wrong. You have made no logical points. All you've done is shake your first and decry how outrageous I am. Yes, I know about this whataboutism. I often find it's a convenient word used by those who don't like being held to the same standard as everyone else. Your attempts to cry racism are falling short.
Has something happened to me personally? No. But I have eyes to see, and what I see is a mass selling out of the people of Europe to a hateful and violent theo-political ideology that has led to countless atrocities and cover-ups, with damn all reasonable excuses for why. People like you have created a self-fulfilling prophecy in which you complain about the rise of the Far-Right, all the while fueling said rise with your apathy towards the atrocities carried out against Europeans, while simultaneously attempting to mark dissidents as racists. Do you really think ordinary people are that stupid that they can't see the connection between all of this? Or have you truly convinced yourself that whatever state Europe finds itself in, no matter how many rapes and murders and ghettos, that it's still, somehow, a preferable alternative to people being "racist" or "Islamophobic"?
Once again, I see you can't but help jump up on your pedestal, acting like you run the place. If Hibernicus wants to ban me, he will. I won't begrudge him. But why bother leaving instead when the outcome is the same? I guess me leaving would be more convenient for you, as you could pretend you drove me off, whereas my simply being banned would quite be so exciting.
Actually, I've tried to stay out of conversations like this for a while, not wanting to go down the same road the forum went last time. But I have seen you continue on your own way, Young Ireland, and it got a bit dull watching you from the sidelines, so I figured I might as well pipe up.
Finally, I don't understand your comments about leaving the boards, but I can't help but feel this is a way for you to garner sympathy. You did the same thing in the conservative forum, making a thread telling everyone about how the atmosphere was too much for you to bear. Earlier in the year, you said something to Maolsheachlann about not being sure you can be friends with someone for holding X beliefs (whatever the conversation was about now.) It seems slightly manipulative to me, as if you're trying to shame people into agreeing with you. Otherwise why make a spectacle about it?
Despite all that, I don't even see the point. There have been a few controversial topics on this board throughout the year, but not to the extent - I don't think - that you could have been given any reason to leave.
Look on the bright side, if Hibernicus ever makes you a co-admin due to his busy schedule, you can always do what you will then.
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