bap
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Post by bap on Oct 14, 2011 10:34:56 GMT
Why do priests and the hierarchy constantly refer to themeselves as "THE CHURCH" ?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2011 15:32:18 GMT
They don't refer to themselves alone as the Church, they are part of it, as am I and I suppose you. Where did you get that impression? Is that what you're getting at? If so, below is something to look at..if not please clarify your meaning and I'll respond again. Some excerpts from Lumen Gentium, I suggest you read it yourself if you want to figure out what they mean when they speak of the Church. www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.htmlFor example, I've highlighted the parts in this excerpt which name laypeople and religious as part of the Church and as responsible for its growth as one another. You should really read the above link though; As all the members of the human body, though they are many, form one body, so also are the faithful in Christ.(56) Also, in the building up of Christ's Body various members and functions have their part to play. There is only one Spirit who, according to His own richness and the needs of the ministries, gives His different gifts for the welfare of the Church.(57) What has a special place among these gifts is the grace of the apostles to whose authority the Spirit Himself subjected even those who were endowed with charisms.(58) Giving the body unity through Himself and through His power and inner joining of the members, this same Spirit produces and urges love among the believers. From all this it follows that if one member endures anything, all the members co-endure it, and if one member is honored, all the members together rejoice.(59)The Church in this is mindful that she must bring together the nations for that king to whom they were given as an inheritance,(121) and to whose city they bring gifts and offerings.(122) This characteristic of universality which adorns the people of God is a gift from the Lord Himself. By reason of it, the Catholic Church strives constantly and with due effect to bring all humanity and all its possessions back to its source In Christ, with Him as its head and united in His Spirit. (10*) In virtue of this catholicity each individual part contributes through its special gifts to the good of the other parts and of the whole Church. Through the common sharing of gifts and through the common effort to attain fullness in unity, the whole and each of the parts receive increase. Not only, then, is the people of God made up of different peoples but in its inner structure also it is composed of various ranks. This diversity among its members arises either by reason of their duties, as is the case with those who exercise the sacred ministry for the good of their brethren, or by reason of their condition and state of life, as is the case with those many who enter the religious state and, tending toward holiness by a narrower path, stimulate their brethren by their example. Moreover, within the Church particular Churches hold a rightful place; these Churches retain their own traditions, without in any way opposing the primacy of the Chair of Peter, which presides over the whole assembly of charity (11*) and protects legitimate differences, while at the same time assuring that such differences do not hinder unity but rather contribute toward it. Between all the parts of the Church there remains a bond of close communion whereby they share spiritual riches, apostolic workers and temporal resources. For the members of the people of God are called to share these goods in common, and of each of the Churches the words of the Apostle hold good: "According to the gift that each has received, administer it to one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God".(123)All men are called to be part of this catholic unity of the people of God which in promoting universal peace presages it. And there belong to or are related to it in various ways, the Catholic faithful, all who believe in Christ, and indeed the whole of mankind, for all men are called by the grace of God to salvation.[/i]End of excerpt. Welcome to the forums bap, I hope this has helped.
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Post by hibernicus on Oct 14, 2011 17:17:33 GMT
The pre-Vatican II definition of the Church (which goes back to the Counter-Reformation theologian St Robert Bellarmine) tended to define the church in terms of its hierarchical structure and teaching authority and the sacramental role of the priesthood (since these were the features attacked by Protestantism). This had the effect of talking as if the church consisted exclusively of bishops and priests (a view which was probably underpinned by an assumption that everyone in society was Catholic in some sense and that baptism could be taken for granted). As Banaltra says, Vatican II corrected this emphasis (drawing on theological trends which go back to the nineteenth century and to the realisation that the laity could not simply be taken for granted but needed to be actively evangelised). One problem we have now is that some people have interpreted this as meaning that priests and bishops have engaged in some sort of illegitimate power-grab and the church can do without them, or at least without acknowledging them as possessing a special role/authority - which it can't. BTW it is not only priests and bishops who speak of "the church" in this sense. Look at RTE news, for example, or at the newspapers, and you will notice that they frequently say "the church" when they mean the church authorities.
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bap
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Post by bap on Oct 17, 2011 14:33:50 GMT
In reply to banaltra and hibernicus It is an atitude rather than legal terminology that I am refering to. Yes this terminology permeates media reports and discussions. I am waiting to hear a correction by a member of the clergy. I have heard priests thank the faithful for remaining true to the church after the scandels. This is a basic error, we are the church. I believe in the Mass and wil always do so, what failures and flaws the clergy may have is a seperate issue. They are employed by us to perform their duties.
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Post by hibernicus on Oct 17, 2011 19:23:33 GMT
Bap - I think your last post is a bit off target. Referring to "remaining true to the church" do not necessarily imply that the clergy ARE the church - if someone remains a member of the Fianna Fail party they can be described as "remaining true to the FF Party" without assuming that the elected representatives are the party. You can be "true to" a group of which you yourself are a member. Your remark that the clergy "are employed by us to perform their duties" implies that they do not possess any intrinsic authority except as derived from their congregation. The fact is that they do derive the ability to confect the sacraments and to teach doctrine from their training and ordination. The fact that the laity as well as the clergy are the Church does not mean that the Church is not hierarchically organised.
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bap
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Post by bap on Oct 18, 2011 10:27:55 GMT
hibernicus Maybe loyal to the church would be a more accurate account of what I heard. Thank you for responding and your points are valid. My concern is the engagement of the clergy and the hierarchy with the faithful. To me they come across as seperate and failing to recognise their dependance on the faithful. We have paid for their training and yet many preach but fail to teach. They have been annointed to carry out their duties and their must be a hierarchy to effeciently run an organisation. All of this should be for the benefit of the faithful and inclusive of the faithful. Visit any Catholic website, either diocesan or religious order and to me they are "one way". I think this is an indication of an elitest atitude.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2011 11:53:02 GMT
hibernicus Maybe loyal to the church would be a more accurate account of what I heard. Thank you for responding and your points are valid. My concern is the engagement of the clergy and the hierarchy with the faithful. To me they come across as seperate and failing to recognise their dependance on the faithful. We have paid for their training and yet many preach but fail to teach. They have been annointed to carry out their duties and their must be a hierarchy to effeciently run an organisation. All of this should be for the benefit of the faithful and inclusive of the faithful. Visit any Catholic website, either diocesan or religious order and to me they are "one way". I think this is an indication of an elitest atitude. Bap can you expand a little on your last point about the websites being "one way"? I don't understand what you mean. I don't know how involved you are in the church but I have found that the years I spent attending Mass and zippo else left me with the impression of "them and us" too. We are all here to know and love God and to serve Him. When I get to know priests and nuns I'm surprised how fantastic they are, a real light under the bushel, they still try their best in a very difficult time. There have been some grumpy ones, I grant you, but I don't know how heavy the cross they have to bear is so I let it go. Do you feel part of the Church, do you take part in prayer groups, attend Adoration chapel, get involved in charity drives through your parish, spend time within the Church community? I think that doing that will change your impression of things, for you will be serving Christ within the Church too. For the record, I would hate any priest or nun to show how dependant they feel, I don't want anyone to feel they owe me, for what am I? Besides, that is not true, it is interdependent, them and us together. They have given up their lives for God and us, no priests - no Mass. Never mind all the rest of the sacraments, charity work, praying and presence that all the religious do for us. I'd have had little education, bad health and a lot less opportunities were it not for nuns. Their contribution really is priceless. But we are all in this together, lay and religious, to serve God and build His Kingdom on earth, that's what it's all about, it's what they're up to and you and I hopefully.
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Post by hibernicus on Oct 18, 2011 12:01:46 GMT
He means they are "one way" in that they are the clergy addressing the faithful with no provision for feedback from the laity to the clergy.
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