Some nice comments on the ACP's schismatic tendencies (they have been praising the Austrian Priests' association, who are fairly clearly threatening schism if they don't get their way)
Martha
September 9th, 2011 at 9:23 pm
The threat of Austrian priests going into schism if they do not get what they want is not dissimilar to the young man who threatens suicide if his girlfriend leaves him. Both are emotionally immature and manipulative.
There is a widespread apostasy in the Church and all that is left is for it to be formalised by an official schism. Whilst greatly to be regretted and wept over, such things have happened before, and will happen again. Though the Lord prayed that they be one, sadly human free will means division is inevitable and Christ’s body is torn through the sins of men, all 400 of them in this case.
One other thing, obvious though it is, could easily be forgotten: once you go into schism, one is no longer Catholic.
Paul Burns
September 10th, 2011 at 2:35 am
Martha, that’s a very simplistic analysis. What is required is a deeper understanding of why these brave Austrian priests and their colleagues in Ireland and elsewhere are trying to save the church from negative forces within itself. They share our suffering and are determined to ensure a future for our mission to promote the ideals of Jesus Christ. They want to shake off the last trappings of the historic Holy Roman Empire and offer a truly Christian experience to God’s people. They are among the first to acknowledge that the emperor has no clothes. They deserve our full respect and support.
Martin
September 11th, 2011 at 1:23 am
Paul, the Gospel, that ‘truly Christian experience’, has been available from the beginning of the Church. I’m probably just an ignoramus, but I always assumed that Christ appeared at the time He did precisely because of the Roman Empire. With the excellent transport links to spread His Gospel, and a ready made administrative system that His Apostles could co-opt, it was a master plan.
Eamonn Keane
September 11th, 2011 at 6:45 am
Paul,
I think it is your own dismissive response to Martha that is “simplistic”. She has summed up more cogently and accurately the reality of what the rebellious Austrian priests are about than anyone else I have read commenting on this regretable situation.
Eamonn Keane
www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2011/09/annual-general-meeting-of-the-association-of-catholic-priests/#commentsA defence of the ACP by a member
www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2011/09/acp-not-heading-for-schism/EXTRACT
The more acute problem for our beloved catholic church, Martha, may well be in the upper hierarchy’s (and let’s say, specifically, the papal) apparent rejection of any form of loyal disagreement within the church. This stern stance has been evident especially since 1979, when the late holy father began removing the “missio canonica” (permission to teach catholic doctrine) from several widely-respected theologians, for publicly airing theological views with which the pope disagreed. This sustained Roman suppression of theological diversity has, in the eyes of many who really do still treasure the catholic church, impoverished our theology in recent decades and closed off some fruitful avenues of dialogue both with other churches and with the wider world of intelligent debate. An outsider might well say to a church person in that case, “Why waste time in discussion, if all options are already closed off to you?”
END OF EXTRACT
I wonder will this great defender of "theological diversity" have any comments on the well-known tendency of theological "liberals" to treat conservative views as symptoms of mental illness and suppress them whenever they have the power to do so (e.g. expelling seminarians)?
And of course Fr Hoban comments on Cardinal Burke's Pontifical High Mass at Knock with characteristic sneer:
EXTRACT
We live in strange times. I was watching on YouTube the recent Latin Mass in
Knock. The celebrant was Cardinal Raymond Leo Burke from Rome. He entered the chapel preceeded by a large retinue of altar-boys and assistants (all
male, of course) and dressed in his full pontifical robes, the most extraordinary of which was a train of cardinal-red cloth carried after him as he swept up the aisle. It was longer even than the train of the wedding dress Pippa Middleton had to carry at her sister Kate’s wedding with Prince William of England. The entourage crowded into the sanctuary and proceeded to disrobe the cardinal of his cardinal’s outfit and to robe him for Mass. The unrobing and robing took at least fifteen minutes and seemed to be a series of formal ceremonies and prayers attaching to each specific garment. The fairly basic YouTube coverage had no close-ups of what was actually happening, apart from various members of the Cardinal’s retinue, moving over and back the sanctuary.
Am I the only one who finds it strange that a Cardinal from Rome, who presumably is extremely busy in such an important position as Prefect of the Supreme Tribunal of the Apostolic Signatura, would go to such trouble to promote a Mass rite that hardly anyone wants [SO THE PEOPLE WHO DO WANT IT ARE NOT ENTITLED TO BE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT? SO MUCH FOR DIVERSITY] and most people can’t understand while the present rite, which most people want, is to be discontinued in a matter of weeks? FR HOBAN CAN'T TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A RITE AND A TRANSLATION]
...
[FROM THE SAME POST - NOW THIS SORT OF DIVERSITY FR HOBAN IS ALL IN FAVOUR OF...]
In Germany, where the Pope will visit in a few weeks’ time, the president of the German bishops has come out in favour of discussing the issue of giving Communion to remarried divorcees. While some bishops have distanced themselves from the debate, many German theologians have come out in favour and some have pointed out that, in practice, remarried divorcees are rarely refused Communion in Germany nowadays.
Meanwhile, in Austria, four hundred priests have thrown down the gauntlet over a number of issues of church authority. The Austrian group is led by a former vicar-general of Vienna and the group has vowed to disobey the Church on a number of issues: from now on they will give Communion to remarried divorcees, members of other Christian Churches and to Catholics who have left the Church; they will consider a Service at which Communion is distributed as ‘a priestless Eucharist’ which will fulfil the Sunday Mass obligation when priests are scarce and they will allow competent lay Catholics to preach; and they intend to take every opportunity to speak out publicly for the abolition of clerical celibacy, as well as supporting women’s and married men’s ordination.
Even though the thrust of the Catholic Church over the last two pontificates was to back-peddle on reform, to put a premium on control and to appoint people who wouldn’t rock a boat to positions of authority, a kind of rolling resistance is beginning to form – a version of the Arab spring – and, as the Tablet put it recently, ‘Rome must be concerned that any contagion that takes root in Austria would quickly be bound to spread’.
There are fires spontaneously breaking out in the Catholic world and will, it seems, continue to break out until some real engagement happens between Rome and the wider Church on reform issues that simply refuse to go away. Bishop Edward Daly’s book will help to kindle the embers of dissent in Ireland...What the future will bring is unclear but one thing seems absolutely certain. What Bishop Daly has to say has much more to offer the Irish Church than what I saw on YouTube last week.
Read the whole thing here:
www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2011/09/article-by-brendan-hoban/The comments also repay interest. Here are some samples - note how the apostles of diversity react when asked to tolerate something THEY disagree with:
John
September 17th, 2011 at 9:44 pm
Thanks for pointing toward the YouTube video. The opening sequence is hilarious. All that silk and lace. Sean and Matt represent a archaic view of the Eucharist. I am amazed that they cannot see the current efforts to enforce a new translation of the missal and the promotion of the Latin Mass as essentially ploitical endeavours. How sad.
Anthony Murphy
September 17th, 2011 at 10:05 pm
As one of the organisers of this Mass I must point out a few errors in Fr Hoban’s story. First he suggests that no one wants the Extraordinary Form yet the church was full to overflowing, standing room only. I should also point out that the religious congregation we organised the Mass with, the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest, have a Seminary which is full and they also have a growing number of Irish vocations.
I wonder why Fr Hoban would object to such beautiful sacred liturgy especially as the Roman Pontiff has encouraged it’s use and especially many of the young people seem to be drawn to it. Surely the old and the new can exist side by side in harmony, there really is no need for division.
Wendy Murphy
September 17th, 2011 at 11:10 pm
I’ve just looked at the YouTube video of this event. It’s ludicrous and disgraceful beyond description. The feeling I have is this – where is the forum in which we, the ‘laity’ can protest and articulate our views? Where are the bishops/priests who, like us, desire the simple freedom and grace to live good, prayerful lives in the Catholic community, embedded in the wider community we love? Why aren’t they protesting loudly against the empty pomp and imperialism of the kind expressed in the video? If they don’t protest, please tell me how we can? Why must we be expected to pretend, to our brothers and sisters in our ordinary lives, that we can even begin to go along with such a travesty that bears no resemblance at all to the Good News of the Scriptures?
END
And here is a nice educational post. More like this, please - even if it sometimes gets a response equivalent to throwing pearls before Fr Hoban:
Sean
September 18th, 2011 at 11:37 pm
Eddie, point taken, but it should be realised that this was a Pontifical High Mass. Yes the Cardinal does wear the cappa magna but its symbolism should be understood.
The capa magna does indeed represent the finery of the world, its power and prestige. That is why after his entrance wearing it, the prelate is publicly stripped of this finery and humbled before the congregation. Then, vestment by vestment, the bishop is clothed in the new man of which St Paul speaks, including the baptismal alb, the dalmatic of charity, the stole of pardon and the chasuble of mercy. When finally clothed in Christ, the prelate makes a second entrance into the church to begin the eucharistic celebration in persona Christi, the visible head of the body, the church.
It was a clear statement that the power and prestige of the world have no place at the altar, but it is expressed in a liturgical ritual or symbol, which, unfortunately, are often lacking in the contemporary rites and thus hard to grasp.
Compare and contrast with the other extreme, the way I see the ACP is attempting to lead us by watching this youtube clip:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh_nqtp3VrU