Politic.ie has a thread discussing an interview in which the new President of MAry Immaculate says he wishes to revive its Catholic ethos.
www.politics.ie/forum/education-science/181722-biz-post-mary-immaculate-prez-says-college-will-return-catholic-ethos.html There are a wide range of opinions - several posters say if MIC is to be a catholic institution the state should withdraw all funding, there is some conspiracy-mongering about Opus Dei etc. Below are a wide range of comments, several of which make differing factual assertions on the current state of MIC, Catholic practice generally, etc. I have added a few comments IN CAPITAL LETTERS but generally leave them to speak for themselves. If anyone would like to comment on them they are welcome to do so.
Today, 03:46 PM #93
SeamusNapoleon
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Mary I has all the usual studentry that goes on at other colleges - SHAG Week (a big costumed sperm chasing eggs around), condoms in the Sutdent's Union and Rag Week where a lot of goings-on occur on campus. It is, of course, smaller than other colleges and more homogeneous than most - being primarily, but not exclusively, a teacher-training college.
I don't know what this new president intends to do if he wants to match his words with action, but there is certainly very little-to-no discernible Catholic ethos in the college affecting students. And I stress 'students', who knows about faculty.
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I returned to education and trained to be a teacher in one of the Dublin colleges in 2008. Met a few Mary I people at different sporting and social events and when I we went to the Gaelteacht for 3 weeks as part of the corse. Have to say they were a very serious and pious bunch, which surprised me as I was about 15 years older than most of them, and I was not looking forward to spending wehat I thought would be 3 wild weeks with a bunch of young ones. I am generalising a bit here, but most of them didn't even go for a drink, they just hung out together at the Bean an Tí's, even the few men on the course. After 2 days on the course, me and the other 4 guys from our college had christened them The Mary Dry Crowd....
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Today, 03:49 PM #95
CatBlack
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Originally Posted by SeamusNapoleon
Mary I has all the usual studentry that goes on at other colleges - SHAG Week (a big costumed sperm chasing eggs around), condoms in the Sutdent's Union and Rag Week where a lot of goings-on occur on campus. It is, of course, smaller than other colleges and more homogeneous than most - being primarily, but not exclusively, a teacher-training college.
I don't know what this new president intends to do if he wants to match his words with action, but there is certainly very little-to-no discernible Catholic ethos in the college affecting students. And I stress 'students', who knows about faculty.
False. Durex did one year successfully manage to sponsor a "shag" week, but there hasn't been one in several years. And rightly so.
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Originally Posted by eyelight
Nothing called "Mary Immaculate" should ever receive any state funding.
I assume that you would also remove state funding from the following for similar reasons: St Pat's in Drumcondra, Colaiste Mhuire Marino, and the Church of Ireland College of Education in Rathmines? That would leave a rather small pool of primary teachers graduating each year. While you're at it, the Mater hospital, Our Lady's hospital in Crumlin, St Vincent's, and a host of other medical facilities would also have to be denied state funding.
In general, this thread has been swamped by misinformation. With regard to Opus Dei, the current (new) president of Mary Immaculate is only the second male to hold the position. So to conform with the common belief prosposed here already, most of the nuns who have been president must have been in Opus Dei also.
Having attended college there in the recent past, I must say that the vast majority of teaching staff in Mary I are liberal, forward-thinking and very focused on the needs of the students. In my experience, it is not the backward place that some posters here would lead us to believe.
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Originally Posted by edwin
Correct. The real issue here however is whether the state could afford to provide a lot of the services currently provided by the church. I doubt it somehow. Also, I think you'll find a fairly significant proportion of voters (perhaps a majority, who knows) ate perfectly happy with the current situation...
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Originally Posted by TommyO'Brien
Not a majority any more. Even in rural Ireland religious adherence is collapsing. I am from rural Ireland. Last Christmas on Christmas Day the church was only 40% full. 15 years ago Christmas Mass was standing room only. I remember as a child when the parish was 97% Catholic and every Catholic went to Mass. We'd have two Sunday Masses in the local church. Now they only have one, have one priest in the parish not two, and that church on Sundays is barely 20% full with few people aged between 15 and 50.
In Dublin some parishes have a 2% atttendance rate.
At a wedding last year I was told in my parish there was a lot of confusion as people at it didn't when to stand or knell, so rarely are they in church. The priest had to tell them what to do.
The days when Catholicism except in the most nominal sense had a majority are long gone. Even in rural Ireland it is in freefall.
There has certainly been a huge decline but I feel you're somewhat ovetstating it. I'm also from rural Ireland and mass attendance is still very much the norm where I come from. Mass attendance is also not an accurate predictor of religious views. For example, I rarely attend mass yet would be strongly supportive of the church's role in education. Most people I know in my age group (early 30s) are happy to see continuing church involvement in education.
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Today, 05:46 PM #117
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I would think it might be interesting to see where he would get the funds to make changes to reinforce the Catholic ethos more than it is as at the moment. One of the conditions of Mary I's link up with UL that Ed Walsh insisted on was that all money would go through UL's finances first and budgetary decisions had to go through UL. Ed's intention was that Mary I couldn't hire someone that UL didn't approve of and they couldn't expend anything on new religious orientated efforts without the sign off from UL. If they can find the money from somewhere else than that's their lookout.
With UL holding the purse strings, Mary I senior management can talk all they want about what they might like to do but they will have to get approval from UL management in order to do any of it.
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Today, 06:31 PM #127
LamportsEdge
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Absolutely. The amount of public money spent supporting what is at best a minority private social organisation involving somewhere between 3% and 7% of the Irish population is ridiculous.
This particular superstitious and expensive NAMA has been going on for near enough a thousand years.
Politics is the only known profession where the piper plays the same tune over and over again and expects to be well paid for it.
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Today, 06:31 PM #128
Texal Tom
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There is a Protestant primary education college in rathmines... And unlike the catholic colleges applicant need to attend for interview and must be Protestant...
I dont hear the usual suspects attacking this...
Btw I have no issues with this.....
oday, 06:33 PM #131
LamportsEdge
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Is the protestant primary education institution receiving state funding? If it is it should be stopped immediately. Same with state funding of any catholic or other religious ethos educational establishment with a philosophy of preference in admission, employment or procedures.
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Today, 06:42 PM #137
Texal Tom
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Originally Posted by LamportsEdge
Absolutely. The amount of public money spent supporting what is at best a minority private social organisation involving somewhere between 3% and 7% of the Irish population is ridiculous.
This particular superstitious and expensive NAMA has been going on for near enough a thousand years.
3 - 7 %? Horse sh1t
You talk about public money as if there is a public money well somewhere And that Catholics don't contribute - in fact catholics have contributed significantly to the development of education in this country and continue to do so... The state owes us a debt of gratitude instead of little eggy head atheists with a bit of power prostrating about with an anti catholic agenda - its not Quinn's f in money - he job is to improve the standard of education in the state and so far he has done sfa.. He has attacked the guidance service and says he wants fas to take over the work . Fas ffs - after all the scandals in fas he wants to send in their people into schools without training or qualifications in guidance.... He hasn't a notion what he is at
Catholic parents are entitled to have a catholic education for their children as are Jews and Protestant etc....
Today, 07:15 PM #158
The Kew Tour
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Originally Posted by uriah
The church does not make up the shortfall in schools' funding every year.
I would like to see some evidence that the 'church' paid for some of the building work in the school. In my (considerable) experience, communities (people of all religions and none) raise funds to supplement government funds for such building projects.
Who are you to tell me about what happens in my community? This is fact and is acknowledged as such by all members of the community. Church sold land and donated part of the funds to the school for an astro-turf area and multi-sensory room. The church has consistently donated money to the school to improve it year on year...
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[KEEP AN EYE ON THIS CHARMING ARGUMENT FOR WHOLESALE EXPROPRIATION (BELOW) - I SUSPECT WE WILL HEAR MORE ON IT FROM THE BACIK BRIGADE IN YEARS TO COME - HIB]
Today, 07:39 PM #180
LamportsEdge
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Originally Posted by The Kew Tour
I stated in the previous post where the money came from. Here's a link with the basics of the sale of the land and how it came to be in the possession of the church. You may scroll down a bit to see what i'm talking about though.
KildareNET - Current News
Thanks for the link Peter.
'The field (pictured below) was bought for the parish in 1943 through subscription raised by the parishioners. The original trustees are all deceased and when Fr O’Connell was appointed four years ago he was instructed by the Bishop of Kildare & Leighlin, Dr Ryan, to vest all parish property in the K & L Trust. He emphasised several times at last night’s meeting that any proceeds of the sale of parish assets could only be used for the benefit of the parish itself.'
As I've said the church does not buy property using its own money. What it invariably refers to as its property holdings have always come from parishioners-ie Irish citizens. I think it is a misnomer to regard the church as 'owning' property in Ireland. It can and should be regarded as belonging to the community in which the church is based...
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Today, 07:43 PM #184
uriah
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Originally Posted by peter barrins
Well, I guess, in time, Catholic schools will be fewer - perhaps there will be a situation like the US where there is a strong perception that the standard of education is better in RCC schools. I strongly suspect, given the choice, that a sizeable number of Irish parents would prefer their children to attend a Catholic school - I certainly would.
We don't have 'catholic' schools.
We have 'pretend catholic' schools.
Teachers are non practising.
Parents are non-practising.
Children are non-practising.
Many of the clergy are, in truth, non-practising.
Most claim to be practising catholics.
At certain times, all pretend to be practising catholics.
Big performances are put on twice yearly for first communion and confirmation.
Most of it is about the glamour, the performance, the 'production'.
The vast majority don't give the religious aspect a first - never mind a second - thought.
Anyone who says otherwise is either lying or in denial.
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Today, 07:45 PM #186
Cato
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Originally Posted by peter barrins
Well, I guess, in time, Catholic schools will be fewer - perhaps there will be a situation like the US where there is a strong perception that the standard of education is better in RCC schools. I strongly suspect, given the choice, that a sizeable number of Irish parents would prefer their children to attend a Catholic school - I certainly would.
How you think that the above is a response to my post is a little beyond me. Why quote my post if it is of no relevance to the point that you are making?
My son attends a school with a RC ethos (all buildings paid for by the state as are most of the running costs - the rest being made up of parents contributions - the land came from a religious order, which came to them as a charitable donation for the purposes of education). It is a good school and I have little issue with it. Happily (for us) it does not seem to take the religious aspect seriously - they do little of it in class, say few prayers and my son as yet (1st class) knows no prayer by heart. This experience of RC ethos schools is not uniform or perhaps even typical but it means that we are content with it.
The teacher who taught my son last year in Senior infants has no religious beliefs herself.
"Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse." - Pierre-Simon de Laplace to Napoleon Bonaparte.
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Today, 07:45 PM #187
LamportsEdge
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Considering also that these 'catholic ethos' schools are no longer staffed by priests, nuns, brothers or clerics of any kind it is very likely that the reason parents want their kids in those schools are that they are longer established in the community, more settled in their procedures and customs and that it has very little do with the 'halo' effect of catholicism on little Johnny as he kicks the football just past the plaster Holy Mary outside the staff room
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Today, 09:28 PM #200
rgaok
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Originally Posted by goatstoe
I agree. Pull the state funding out from under them and put manners on the idiot of a president there in Mary Immaculate College. Then refuse to enable the return of funding until they get their act in order and start to introduce more science and engineering in the training of their student teachers.
There's been a bit of a backlash from catholic types in recent months from the media and other places. That's bound to happen. Efforts to put this crowd in their place need to doubled.
Even the name: Mary IMMACULATE is so dated......
Why not call it LTTC - Limerick Teacher Training college.
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Today, 09:54 PM #206
west'sawake
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Originally Posted by Houyhnhnm
The Sunday Businesses Post has an interview with the new president of Mary Immaculate College where he started that he wants to give greater prominence to the Catholic ethos.
However the institution already has a strong Catholic ethos. Rowan Gallagher, who wrote the article, points out that that a report by the Teaching Council critiqued Mary I for spending too much time teaching religion, stating that student teachers spent four times as many class hours on religion than science.
The teacher training institute, which produces 40 percent of our primary teachers, will, according to its new president, "actively promote the mission, identity and values of the college as a Catholic institution of higher education..." because they were "...founded as a Catholic institution.“ He also went on to say that Catholicism "has to have a preferential place in any dialogue" about the future of the college.
This, to me, is insanity. UCD, the biggest university in the country, was founded as a Catholic institution too, but if their president came out with similar statements he'd be involved in some interesting board meetings. Does he not realise that it's the state, not the Catholic church, who pays him to run the college? Should he not be promoting freethinking and inquiry?
I) What does he mean by Catholic Ethos? If he means Mary I might have a Theology and Philosophy department that fully supports Catholic teaching and not a smorgosboard of confusion then Bravo.
2) The teaching council is just another bloody quango, made up of some past union officials, a quango that has to busy itself with reports in order to justify it's existence and the fact that it charges tens of thousands of teachers 80 euro each year, every year, for that privilege. That said however, they may well have a point in relation to the Theology Department of Mary I, because in my own humble opinion, less if often more. Better the Mere Christianity of C.S. Lewis and the Mere Catholicism of Ian Kerr than hours and hours of fashionable theology that may well be saccharine coated pelagianism and as the wise know, Pelagians often don't even recognise their own heresy or confusion.
I for one would like to see Mary I end the days of the new clericalism that dominates the Irish Theological scene, those who want to democratise the Church with trendy parish councils advocating empowerment, women priests, and the other shrill shouts of politically correct inclusiveness, and who hold conferences among their own club, telling each other how wonderful they are, preferring 'the plaudits of their peers to the praise of their God;, as that great Catholic Apologist would put it, Peter Kreeft. The best chance of that happening might be under Michael Hayes so here's hoping his is the voice of dynamic orthodoxy and that under him those who know the truth that Christ willed the Church and that her teachings are his, and that 'a thousand difficulties do not one doubt make', will flourish, and grow.
This post may well get up some one's nose in Mary I, so be prepared to see it censored. It's happened before.
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Today, 09:55 PM #207
Brenny
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The vast majority of Primary schools in the country have a Catholic ethos and the kiddies are put through the First Confession, First Communion and Confirmation, not to mention the fact that the curriculum means that the teachers have to teach the kiddies religion for about 8 hours a week (to the best of my knowledge). All that taken into account, I’d say it’d be a pretty rubbish college if it trained primary school teachers and didn’t teach them a lot of religion. The low levels of science that are taught also reflect the curriculum that the teachers will have to deal with.
Most of the guys I drink with are teachers who came through Mary Immaculate College and I’ve never met a bigger bunch of aggressive atheists. Every now and again I ask one of them innocently about how much religion they teach as oppose to history/geography/science and then I sit back and enjoy the show as they curse every second they have to teach the stuff. I’ve dated a number of women from the college over the years and never found them to be pretty pious.
Everything the new President has said flies in the face of what I know about the place.
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Today, 10:15 PM #215
Cato [THE COMMENT ON THE UNCATHOLIC NATURE OF ALIVE-O, COMING FROM AN ATHEIST, SHOULD BE NOTED - THIS IS WHAT MANY OF US HAVE BEEN COMPLAINING ABOUT - HIB]
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Originally Posted by west'sawake
The Iona Institute financed sound research a few years ago that exposed the truth that at least the past generation of Catholics are catechetically illiterate it on the fundamentals of their faith.
Dr Eanna Johnson completed extensive research proving the same, dealing with the failures of the Alive Oh programme in Catholic primary schools.
There has been a huge drop of in Sacramental practice not just in the obvious fact that mass attendance has dropped continuously, but more ominously, those who still do go to mass, are very very infrequent in their reception of the Sacrament of Reconciliation.
As an R.E. teacher I can tell you the children coming in from primary schools know very little about Catholic doctrine in the way their great grandparents would have via the penny catechism.
Rarely over this past thirty years would you hear preaching from the pulpit that catechises via scripture and tradition. Though in my own parish this has improved greatly, thank God.
I have to say that I have often found the ignorance of most Catholics (that I have had cause to discuss religion with) of their own religion to be somewhat stunning. Most have little idea of what transubstantiation is and when explained to them (and I usually go into detail using Aquinas etc.) they usually reject it and opt for something like a symbolic understanding of it.
My son is in a RC ethos school and has not been taught one prayer so far (he is in 1st class). The Alive-O programme seems, from looking at my son's books, looks reasonably tame, almost neo-pagan in some ways. He gets homework every day but has never received any religious homework.
Your experience above is not surprising.
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Today, 10:51 PM #234
west'sawake
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