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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Jul 9, 2008 11:30:23 GMT
You could say that Garabandal was the Medjugorje of the 1960s. It has some very dedicated supporters to this day, but several Bishops of Santander thought otherwise.
A lot of people were taken by a particular line from one of the 'warnings':
Many cardinals, many bishops and many priests are on the road to perdition and they are taking many souls with them.
However, the prophecies were to come to pass within the pontificate of the third pope after the death of Bl. John XXIII. That never happened. Draw your own conclusions.
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Post by monkeyman on Jul 10, 2008 19:51:04 GMT
You could say that Garabandal was the Medjugorje of the 1960s. It has some very dedicated supporters to this day, but several Bishops of Santander thought otherwise. A lot of people were taken by a particular line from one of the 'warnings': Many cardinals, many bishops and many priests are on the road to perdition and they are taking many souls with them. However, the prophecies were to come to pass within the pontificate of the third pope after the death of Bl. John XXIII. That never happened. Draw your own conclusions. I know people are going to say I'm very anti the SSPX-which I am (lets be clear its the viewpoints which are noxious) not the people....althought strike that there are a few exceptions as witht the Church as a whole. But here is where I am probably most critical of the SSPX. The chances are is that Garabandal is diabolical in origin...it has been condemned sucessively by all the Bishops of Santander yet Dr Williamson et al promote and believe it. I suspect this is because it dovetailes nicely with their world-view of things especially vis á vis Rome. As with Medjurgorje which allegedly enjoyed the private support of the late Pope John Paul II it would be almost impossible to say anything to a hardened believer about Garabandal which would change the viewpoint of the believer. From the above message given by Alaisdir its obvious that whoever wrote it they were under the impression that Cardinals and Bishops couldnt possibly go to hell yet we know from the earliest times in the Church that the saints have told Churchmen to be on their guard against the devil and that there is more of a chance that they could perish than the soul of a layman. Its the viewpoint of someone who lived in a predominantly Catholic country in the years after the second world war when the Church was percieved to be without blemish especially among its clergy. This if anything calls into question its believability
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Post by monkeyman on Jul 10, 2008 19:55:39 GMT
In fact one could say that Cardinals, Bishops and Priests have in big numbers always been on the road to hell and that this has always been a reality.
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Post by eircomnet on Jul 14, 2008 14:36:09 GMT
Medjugorje and Garabandal, any comparisons between them operate only on a superficial level, otherwise they compare like chalk and cheese. As for the prophecies happening in the lifetime of J.P.2 this and other relevant matters have been debated in depth on Angelqueen and I am reluctant to get drawn in again unless to try and answer some particular difficulty. Anyone interested in exploring the events further would do well to consult the Garabandal site www.garabandal.us where many difficulties might find an answer.
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Post by monkeyman on Jul 15, 2008 0:03:54 GMT
Medjugorje and Garabandal, any comparisons between them operate only on a superficial level, otherwise they compare like chalk and cheese. As for the prophecies happening in the lifetime of J.P.2 this and other relevant matters have been debated in depth on Angelqueen and I am reluctant to get drawn in again unless to try and answer some particular difficulty. Anyone interested in exploring the events further would do well to consult the Garabandal site www.garabandal.us where many difficulties might find an answer. OOOOhh they have been debated on Angelqueen? and tell me just how many people on that site are Catholic? Listen I ve been around for a while and I know the way apparitions take people over. They are not part of the deposit of faith. Its better that you dont believe in them if you are going against the competant Church authority ie the local diocesan Bishop who is a succesor to one of th 12 Apostles to whom the Lord gave the discernment of spirits-end of story period-thats me doing my spiritual work of mercy. God bless.
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Post by eircomnet on Jul 15, 2008 0:39:22 GMT
Hi Monkeyman, I've been around too for more than a little time. Yes, I know all about the deposit of faith aspect and no, I am not taken over by apparitions (you might with some justification be thinking of Medjugorje). My spiritual director was an expert in mystical theology and he believed in Garabandal. I think the case of Padre Pio who was suspended for quite a number of years might put us on our guard against a too ready acceptance of the argument from authority alone. It should also be borne in mind that Bishop Del Val of Santander showed himself very open to Garabandal despite the utterances of his predecessors. Recent developments involving the Archbishop of Oviedo would point in the same direction. Check out some of those points posted dare I say it by the "non- catholics" ?! over on AQ.
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Post by eircomnet on Jul 16, 2008 9:25:19 GMT
I forgot to mention that in addition to the American Garabandal site, there is an Irish site at www.garabandal.ie
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Post by Askel McThurkill on Jul 17, 2008 11:37:28 GMT
I think the important point to remember about Garabandal was its timing: between 1961 and 1965. From the point of view of many concerned Catholics of the day, this was an answer to their worries. But that doesn't make it authentic. It was a very verbose and far from simple phenonomen which went on for years and left over 2000 messages. The attractive thing about your apparitions of Lourdes and Fatima was their brevity. No words were spoken at all in Knock: the message was in the image. At Garabandal, the vision was verbose and took many messages to come to the same point. At Medjugorje, the vision is even more loquacious and doesn't come to any point.
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Post by eircomnet on Jul 18, 2008 0:36:36 GMT
You're quite right Askel, the fact that they answered a need doesn't make them authentic but remember there were only two formal messages, the rest constituted the visionaries' conversations with Mary, their Mother. These took place between 1961 & 1965. When they ended, they ended!. Contrast with Medjugorje which seems never-ending, with a daily message going on since the eighties!
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Aug 29, 2008 12:13:40 GMT
I think we have focussed exclusively on whether the phenomena here are authentic or fraudulent. We should remember the Church suggests a third possibililty - that the phenomena are preternatural rather than supernatural in origin.
For those unfamiliar with the Church'es terminology, it means they can come from down below.
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Post by eircomnet on Sept 2, 2008 14:49:10 GMT
Certainly not fraudulent. As for preternatural, nothing untheological about the messages of exhortation. That much has been stated by the bishops of Santander. The reading of hearts and consciences would seem a good sign as also the great interest in priests who were often anonymously present. One of the key good points was obedience to the directive of the local Ordinary. The girls' parish priest was a holy and prudent observer who requested personal proof. The events were witnessed by a theologian Fr Royo Marin who was an expert in mystical theology and he affirmed their validity. Conchita was interviewed by my former spiritual director, himself a specialist in mystical theology. He told me that he was convinced that she had seen Our Lady. Add in Padre Pio's involvement and I think the argument in favour carries the greater weight. Above all each person must study the events for himself/herself and come to their own conclusions. I have been involved since the early seventies and continue to believe in the integrity of the events.
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Post by hibernicus on Mar 2, 2010 12:38:45 GMT
Here's a critique of Garabandal by the apologist Karl Keating. This point seems pretty decisive: EXTRACT One of the locutions received by the children included the prediction that there would be only three more popes until "the end of the times." The pope when that prediction was made was John XXIII. Then came Paul VI and John Paul I. Now we have John Paul II, who, being John XXIII's third successor, is therefore the last pope. A further locution told the children that John Paul II would live to see the miracle. The present Holy Father, as we all know, is frail and ailing. While he might live another decade, he might be called home at any time. Most of us will outlive him, which means we will be able to know with certainty whether the warning and the miracle occurred during his reign and whether he turned out to be the last pope... Those who know that God works in history ought to empathize with those who devote themselves to things such as Garabandal. Their intention is right but is not rightly aimed. They are kindly people who worry much about the Church and the world; surely most of them are serious pray-ers. I hope their faith in the Church will prove greater than their faith in their favorite apparition, once the latter disproves itself. EXTRACT ENDS www.catholic.com/newsletters/kke_030729.asp
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Post by eircomnet on Apr 2, 2010 13:23:47 GMT
The three popes was a prophecy which lent itself to different interpretations. Some people for example decided that it meant that there were only three popes and that there would be no more. The real crux is what is meant by "the end of the times". Some commentators indicate that it meant the end of an era and that a significantly new era was starting with Pope Benedict's reign. For example this period might herald the beginning of the persecution of the Church (also predicted at Garabandal). There was a learned discussion on the matter many years ago by the Garabandal expert Fr. Francois Turner. I haven't a link just now but readers should be able to google it. Nowhere have I read that Our Lady told Conchita that Pope JP2 would live to see the Miracle. I have no doubt that, applying simple arithmetic, Conchita came to that conclusion herself but that's a different matter from saying that Our Lady told her. I find to my constant annoyance that people with half-baked knowledge of the events are constantly bringing up objections that could have easily found an answer if they consulted the source material first. Once again a good Garabandal site which deals with problem issues is:www.garabandal.us Probably the most erudite study is by Fr de Pesquara. She went in haste to the Mountains.
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Post by eircomnet on Apr 2, 2010 18:32:04 GMT
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Post by hibernicus on Apr 5, 2010 21:40:47 GMT
I mentioned in a post in another thread some time ago that I ahd heard of some Marian locutionists in Co. Tyrone who claimed JPII was the last true Pope and BXVI is the antichrist. I wonder if this dotty idea derives from a distorted view of Garabandal, because one possible way of dealing with the prophecy would be to claim the current Pope is not a real Pope. The garabandal site's statement that the disappearance of the Papacy is not a possible answer because Paul Vi said the Papacy is a permanent feature of the church does not strike me as impressive. Surely this rests on older and higher authority than Paul Vi?
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