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Post by rogerbuck on Apr 24, 2013 10:14:56 GMT
First to Alaisdir, thank you for this take on the history of Irish SSPX. Very interesting. I am hungry to know more about the Irish situation (in terms of traditionalism and much more). Your posts are really helping me. YoungIreland - by the time I got to Liverpool my focus was much more on ICCRS, so I didn't have too much contact with the SSPX people in Liverpool. I'm reluctant to say much then about SSPX UK but what little experience I have bears out what is being said here and many other places on the internet. I've been using some strong language regarding the SSPX both here and in the Limerick thread (tragic, horrifying etc). As a certain corrective, I'd like to say that I have been to the SSPX many times, mainly in France but also in Ireland. As I said in the Limerick thread, it was only with struggle over years that I came more and more to appreciate the wisdom (and Catholicity) of the Siri/Wach/ICRSS approach. But lest anyone think I do not appreciate the enormous debt we owe to Archbishop Lefebvre, I would like to give a link to a long piece on my own site where I speak at some length of how deeply I appreciate the courage and heart of Marcel Lefebvre: Link is here, for anyone interested: corjesusacratissimum.org/2011/09/book-review-the-horn-of-the-unicorn-by-david-allen-white/
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Post by hibernicus on Apr 24, 2013 20:13:14 GMT
I thought the SSPX had been active in Ireland from the 1970s, even though they didn't acquire the Mounttown church (from the Church of Ireland - the Dublin archdiocese apparently complained that the C of I was not being ecumenical by selling to the SSPX) until the 1980s - I believe they used to hold Masses in hotels. There is a SSPX church in Cork at Shanakiel (acquired from the C of I in the late 80s, after the excommunications) but I don't know how large the congregation is or what sort of people attend it. The HIBERNIAN regularly published SSPX material, which was Williamsonite; I recall one screed which ended with the hope that Vatican II would be declared not to have been a valid Council and that the occasion would be marked by the canonisation of Archbishop Lefebvre. It wasn't just nationalist - they had a lot of stuff on New World Order, international finance and Masonic conspiracies. I think there are a few old posts in one of the threads which discuss individual issues of the HIBERNIAN.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Apr 25, 2013 7:56:30 GMT
I think Archbishop LeFebvre visited Ireland for the first time in 1978 and after that there were regularly organised traditional Masses in hotels and in the R & R hall in Rathmines. I think much of these were said by older Irish priests rather than the SSPX, who were flying in and out (and as air travel was relatively more expensive, it didn't happen so much). In the early 80s, an SSPX priest whose name escapes was briefly resident here before being replaced by Fr Emerson in 1983. At that stage, Masses took place in Crawford Avenue, Drumcondra - I got the impression (maybe wrongly) that this was a pre-fab, but it certainly wasn't a church. Mouttown was acquired later and opened in 1985 and when Archbishop McNamara set up the indult Mass in Dublin, it was in Tivoli Road convent, which is just around the corner from Mounttown. This was on the first Friday. From the First Sunday in Lent in 1986, it took place every Sunday in the St Gabriel's Hospital Chapel in Cabinteely. Provision of the extraordinary Mass on Sundays in the Dublin Archdiocese remains as it was then - one Mass in one church every Sunday for the entire archdiocese.
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Post by shane on Apr 25, 2013 12:40:49 GMT
Archbishop Lefebvre, as Superior General of the Holy Ghost Order, was among those who attended the centenary celebrations of the founding of Rockwell College in Cashel on 19th July, 1964. At the luncheon subsequently he made a toast to De Valera (who was also in attendance) praising him as a statesman and the Christian character of the 1937 constitution. He later recalled this in a sermon in 1989 (and made some rather dubious claims): I remember when I visited Ireland many years ago, I met your great President, Eamonn De Valera. He was a great Catholic. He certainly would refuse to say that Jesus Christ is not King of Ireland. But after the Council the Vatican authorities requested from the President of Ireland to abandon the principle of the Kingship of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is no more publicly acclaimed King of Ireland; it is the same in many Catholic countries. The Vatican asked, for example, Italy, Colombia and other countries to abandon the principle that the Catholic religion is the public religion of the State. Why?
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Post by Askel McThurkill on Apr 25, 2013 13:35:02 GMT
I have seen the photograph of Dev and LeFebvre together (I think it was at the Blackrock College Centenary: consider deValera, Frank Duff and Alfred O'Rahilly were all past pupils there and Archbishop McQuaid had an influence over the three). Anyway the friend of mine who owned the picture complimented the two and added: And both of them, excommunicated.
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Post by hibernicus on Apr 25, 2013 16:38:04 GMT
I thought the Indult Mass in Dublin was originally in SS Michael and John's on the quays (sold off some years later). When was it moved there? (In retrospect I can see the logic of having it near the SSPX church; I presume like other bishops Archbishop McNamara saw it simply as a token gesture aimed at keeping some Lefebvrists in communion with Rome.) There is a certain irony in Archbishop Lefebvre's interpretation of the "special position" clause in the 1937 constitution - in 1937 it was criticised privately by some clerics, and publicly by Fr Denis Fahey CSSp, precisely on the grounds that it was not based on the principle that the State regarded Catholicism as the one true religion, but simply on its being the majority religion (and gave formal recognition to other existing denominations). The central aim of Fr Fahey's proteges in MAria Duce was precisely to replace Article 44 with a "one true church" clause. Someone told me that at some stage there were four SSPX priests in Ireland - was this ever so or was it an exaggeration? I also heard that they were helped financially by inheriting urban house property from some of their original Irish members, and this underwrites their Irish apostolate - but perhaps this is only a rumour.
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Post by rogerbuck on Apr 26, 2013 7:15:41 GMT
Archbishop Lefebvre, as Superior General of the Holy Ghost Order, was among those who attended the centenary celebrations of the founding of Rockwell College in Cashel on 19th July, 1964. At the luncheon subsequently he made a toast to De Valera (who was also in attendance) praising him as a statesman and the Christian character of the 1937 constitution. He later recalled this in a sermon in 1989 (and made some rather dubious claims): I remember when I visited Ireland many years ago, I met your great President, Eamonn De Valera. He was a great Catholic. He certainly would refuse to say that Jesus Christ is not King of Ireland. But after the Council the Vatican authorities requested from the President of Ireland to abandon the principle of the Kingship of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is no more publicly acclaimed King of Ireland; it is the same in many Catholic countries. The Vatican asked, for example, Italy, Colombia and other countries to abandon the principle that the Catholic religion is the public religion of the State. Why? Shane, I should like to hear more, if you can, as to which claims you think are dubious here and to what extent? Do you think there is some truth in in what Archbishop Lefebvre was saying or not? (I want to add that I have also been praying for your mother.)
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Post by shane on Apr 26, 2013 12:14:30 GMT
Thank you Roger, appreciated. Archbishop Lefebvre complained of the abandonment of the principle of the Kingship of Christ; the 1937 Constitution did not state Jesus is 'King of Ireland', but simply recognised Catholicism as the majority religion. It was deleted by way of referendum in 1972, not because the Vatican asked the President to delete it (he would have been powerless to do so anyway).
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Post by shane on Apr 26, 2013 12:17:20 GMT
Someone told me that at some stage there were four SSPX priests in Ireland - was this ever so or was it an exaggeration? I would be surprised if that wasn't the case. Back in 2007 there were three priests attached to their chapel in Mountown alone (Bierer, Angles, and can't remember the name of the other one). Where is Fr Angles now anyway (he used to be the district superior)?
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Apr 26, 2013 19:26:07 GMT
At one stage, there were as many as six SSPX priests in Ireland and one brother. Fr Couture already had two assistants (Frs Lemieux and Van Es, and Fr Van Es was replaced by Fr MacDonald), then Fr Debroeq took on a fourth priest and the fifth and sixth came on stream in Fr Angles' time. According to the SSPX bulletin: ireland.sspx.net/monthly%20bulletin/2013/BulletinIrelandMAR13.pdf there are five SSPX priests working in Ireland right now.
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Post by asiatic on Apr 30, 2013 3:52:45 GMT
The present SSPX Superior of Ireland, Fr Paul Morgan, was the founding Superior of the SSPX Asia District. His successor, Fr Daniel Couture, was also Superior of Ireland for sometime.
Fr Couture has been in Singapore for 15 years now. He is a very close confidante of Bishop Fellay and has assisted the latter over the years by willingly accepting SSPX priests into his district that no other will touch with any bargepole. It is said that once such priests are in place, Couture gives them the longest rope possible, allowing them to carry on as they please.
His policy has seriously backfired. There is now a schism within the SSPX led by two priests of Couture's district, Francis Chazal and Joseph Pfeiffer. Calling themselves "The Resistance" they have wreaked havoc mostly in the States but also recently, in Couture's own backyard which in any case hgas been in a comatose state for several years,
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Apr 30, 2013 7:56:45 GMT
Asiatic, why am I not surprised? God between us and all harm.
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Post by asiatic on May 2, 2013 5:18:18 GMT
Asiatic, why am I not surprised? God between us and all harm. Alaisdir, here is another non-surprise. At the beginning of April the SSPX-Resistance wrested a chapel in an Indian city from the SSPX (Regular/Usual). Priests from both factions then celebrated this event at a posh hotel in that city. Both factions got together for another celebration at another posh hotel in another city of that country. If the SSPX (Regular/Usual) is seen as part of the Church of the Catacombs, the SSPX-Resistance would have to be taken as part of the Church of the Deeper Catacombs. Yet the latter have purchased a hand-made thurible for a measly $800.
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Post by hibernicus on May 2, 2013 22:05:12 GMT
According to last week's CATHOLIC HERALD, Bishop Fellay has issued a message to his followers asking whether Pope Francis's call to serve the poor amounts to "man-centred philanthropy" and asking "if this is the case, is the church's mission still being carried out"? This may lead some people to wonder whether Bishop Fellay is modelling himself on the Pharisees and if so, whether he is overdue for re-excommunication - just like Bishop Fellay, I'm not saying it, just asking...
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Post by hibernicus on May 2, 2013 22:18:13 GMT
Here is a Williamsonite/"Resistance" site if anyone wants to keep up with their antics - apparently some of them in England intend to protest when Bishop Fellay visits England in the near future: www.therecusant.com/HEre is a pro-Fellay pag from Catholic Truth Scotland, linking to an official statement from SSPX Asia accusing the "Resistance" of being the real liberals because they have abandoned any attempt to maintain a hierarchical structure. www.catholictruthscotland.com/blog/2013/04/sspx-resistance-lost-contact-with-reality/I link to these sites only for your information and do not endorse any of their statements
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