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Post by hibernicus on Jan 13, 2013 21:01:44 GMT
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Post by Beinidict Ó Niaidh on Jan 22, 2013 13:39:10 GMT
I hear Archbishop di Noia has written to all SSPX priests. Is it too simplistic to say this is a 'fish or cut bait' message?
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Jan 22, 2013 13:41:03 GMT
It is fair to say the SSPX dialogue has gone on for over four years now and no immediate conclusion is in sight.
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Post by hibernicus on Jan 22, 2013 20:13:13 GMT
If Pope Benedict were to die, which God forbid, I suspect a new Pope would cut them adrift. That will be the conclusion if they don't come to their senses (unless of course they lose their senses completely and formally declare the NO mass to be evil - THAT would certainly be a conclusion).
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Post by hibernicus on Feb 19, 2013 22:20:48 GMT
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Feb 20, 2013 8:40:51 GMT
I am a bit afraid this is the last throw of the dice. I doubt Benedict's successor will be opposed to the extraordinary form liturgy, but he may well be indifferent to it or else rate it much lower on his priority list. I am not aware of any cardinal that is as favourable as Benedict was when he was known as Cardinal Ratzinger. To take a few names widely spoken of: Cardinal Oullette didn't permit the EF Mass from part of the 2008 Eucharistic Congress in Quebec; Cardinal Schönborn was indifferent at best in Vienna. It's probably not much of an issue for the bulk of the African and Latin American candidates. Those cardinals who spoke most about the trad Mass - Cardinal Ranjith and Cardinal Burke come to mind - are hardly mentioned (and I don't think either has a hope; I don't think Schönborn does either I have to say). In short, this could well be the last hope.
On the other hand, what sort of message is the rest of the Church receiving if the SSPX keep throwing what Rome offers back in their faces holding out for more? At some stage, they may be told now or never. But I wouldn't place bets on who the next Pope is going to be (though Michael Kelly gives us something to consider on the Paddy Power website).
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Post by hibernicus on Mar 13, 2013 21:55:38 GMT
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Mar 26, 2013 9:04:52 GMT
God - this is not new, but it is more evidence of schism. I fear at some stage schism will be formally declared. The Vatican doesn't want to do it, but the SSPX are challenging them. Pope Francis would have an Ignatian sense of obedience - that is a very high bar, so I'm worried.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Apr 23, 2013 8:18:45 GMT
There is a school of thought that the SSPX were right not to make a deal with Benedict, given that Francis is an unknown quantity who doesn't seem trad friendly. Not one that I agree with, but I've heard a number of people express the view.
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Post by rogerbuck on Apr 23, 2013 10:20:48 GMT
Tragic. I am tempted to say horrifying. The UK SSPX is amongst the most hardline of the SSPX. Having now moved from Liverpool to Ireland, I am very interested to know if the Irish SSPX is as extreme as the UK's. Perhaps this is already discussed at this site. If so, a link would be appreciated.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Apr 23, 2013 11:24:29 GMT
The Irish SSPX is at least as extreme as the British SSPX. I tend to think they are more so. We have a lot of the nuttier element of SSPX supporters in Britain coming here to start farming in the midland counties convenient to the Society's chapel in Athlone.
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Post by Young Ireland on Apr 23, 2013 20:29:24 GMT
The Irish SSPX is at least as extreme as the British SSPX. I tend to think they are more so. We have a lot of the nuttier element of SSPX supporters in Britain coming here to start farming in the midland counties convenient to the Society's chapel in Athlone. I agree with Alaisdair.
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Post by hibernicus on Apr 23, 2013 20:29:56 GMT
Don't see the rationale of the view that the SSPX were right not to make a deal. I could understand it (though I still would not agree) if Francis were to actually suppress Summorum Pontificum, but otherwise I don't see how the SSPX can be stronger out than in, and the longer they stay out the less likely they are ever to be let back. (There might be a case that SSPX competition strengthens the position of indult trads, but there are a lot of church apparatchiks who would actually prefer to see trads go off into schism.)
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Post by rogerbuck on Apr 23, 2013 20:45:22 GMT
The Irish SSPX is at least as extreme as the British SSPX. I tend to think they are more so. We have a lot of the nuttier element of SSPX supporters in Britain coming here to start farming in the midland counties convenient to the Society's chapel in Athlone. I agree with Alaisdair. Sad indeed to hear this but grateful to you both for telling me this.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Apr 24, 2013 8:09:59 GMT
When the SSPX began their mission in Ireland in the 1980s, they were not particularly extreme. The priest in charge was Father John Emerson, who was moved to Lancashire in 1987 and became a member of the new FSSP in 1988.
Fr Emerson had a congregation of a few hundred in Mounttown (he said he had 600 on a couple of occasions) when the Dublin indult Mass in St Gabriel's Hospital, Cabinteely has about 25 every Sunday (people didn't know about it). In 1987, he was replaced by Father Daniel Couture who took a turn toward the extreme. He was replaced by Father Debroueq, by all accounts a nice man, but not one who could control his more radical assistants. He was replaced by Father Ramon Angles, who was another radical following which the Irish SSPX came under Fr Morgan in the English distict. Attitudes hardened after the excommunications and got progressively worse then. Many supporters gravitated towards the indult Masses, while Palmarians and other groups joined the SSPX.
The fact that Fr Emerson joined the FSSP made his supporters suspect, though my impression was that they believed that Fr Emerson was typical of the SSPX and Fr Couture wasn't, when it was the other way round. I was put in an invidious position nearly twenty years ago when I'd arranged to visit Wigratzbad through contact with Fr Emerson (and going to Germany as a student was not an easy thing to do). A very good friend of mine informed me that Fr Emerson had left the FSSP and was going to rejoin the SSPX (and showed me where it appeared in an SSPX publication). I went to Wigratzbad anyway and resolved to remain 'stumm', to use the German. I'm not sure whether it was Fr Räder or Fr Prosinger who asked me did I know Fr Emerson, when I gingerly answered I did. He told me Fr Emerson would arrive there that night and by coincidence, he walked in to the refectory at the time. For the next couple of years, I regularly had to dispell the myth that Fr Emerson left the FSSP and eventually I heard, he wanted to get back to the SSPX but they wouldn't take him. Which I can tell you is rubbish.
Anyway, in the late 1980s, the SSPX in Ireland went through a metamorphosis from being open to being introversionist. The chapel in Athlone became a hub for extremism, up to and including fascism. Though the dreadful rag "The Hibernian" was not an SSPX organ, it was by, for and of their support base in Ireland.
The back to the land strikes me as fool-hardy. I am of an agricultural background myself and know quite a bit about cattle, pigs and poultry. I would only go back to farming if economic necessity required it. To see people of urban backgrounds attempt to become farmers amuses me, but I fear for them. Most of the techniques are things you grow up with and learn through observation and through trial and error rather than something you can take up abruptly (I'm not saying it's impossible - no doubt like the home-schooled Harvard graduates, there are fourth generation city dwellers who successfully turn to farming; Hibernicus might point to the prominent farmer and agricultural journalist in Ireland, Michael Dillon, who did not come from a farming or even a rural background himself). And though much is made of urban vice, my father and his father had a lot to say about rural vice too and I've heard similar stories from other parts of rural Ireland, in each of the four provinces and on both sides of the border. There is nothing innately virtuous about living in a non-urban setting or working in agriculture rather than in industry or in a professional setting. But tell that to the SSPX hardliners of whom we have many in Ireland.
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