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Post by abraham1 on Nov 17, 2023 0:59:20 GMT
Do you guys believe only catholics can enter heaven?
If yes, then what about the none believers and jews?
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Post by Young Ireland on Nov 18, 2023 12:18:15 GMT
Do you guys believe only catholics can enter heaven? If yes, then what about the none believers and jews? It's important to understand that although we believe the salvation is through the Catholic Church, and someone who believes that Catholicism is true must join the Church for salvation, it doesn't necessarily follow that all non-Catholics are damned per se. The Church does recognise (contra Fr. Fenney) baptism of blood (i.e. martyrdom) and baptism of desire (if a catechumen dies before being formally admitted into the Church), and there is also the possiblility of invincible ignorance on the part of non-Catholics which might excuse their unbelief. There seems to be a misunderstanding among non-Catholics that the Feeneyite (unless you are a physically baptised member of the Catholic Church, you are damned without exception) view is the normative one when in fact it is a fringe view, even among hardline tradtionalists.
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Post by abraham1 on Nov 18, 2023 20:08:55 GMT
Sounds bad for the Jews and Muslims. And it is borderline with some xenophobia, maybe it is the reason why Irish Catholics didn't take any Jews during ww2.
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Post by Young Ireland on Nov 18, 2023 20:52:31 GMT
Sounds bad for the Jews and Muslims. And it is borderline with some xenophobia, maybe it is the reason why Irish Catholics didn't take any Jews during ww2. How is it bad? They may well be saved if they are not fully aware or do not fully understand the Christian message. There's also nothing xenophobic about it - anyone regardless of racial or religious background is welcome in Christ's Church. Anyone who says otherwise is lying to you. I agree that Ireland's refusal to take in Jews during WW2 was disgraceful and in many cases motivated by antisemitism, but I'm not sure how this is relevant to the current discussion.
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Post by abraham1 on Nov 18, 2023 21:27:42 GMT
Sounds bad for the Jews and Muslims. And it is borderline with some xenophobia, maybe it is the reason why Irish Catholics didn't take any Jews during ww2. How is it bad? They may well be saved if they are not fully aware or do not fully understand the Christian message. There's also nothing xenophobic about it - anyone regardless of racial or religious background is welcome in Christ's Church. Anyone who says otherwise is lying to you. I agree that Ireland's refusal to take in Jews during WW2 was disgraceful and in many cases motivated by antisemitism, but I'm not sure how this is relevant to the current discussion. I am saying that beliefs have consequences, but you seem to disagree with me. If they(the Jews) were Catholics that were baptized by the Catholic Church you would have accepted them.
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Post by Young Ireland on Nov 18, 2023 21:46:25 GMT
How is it bad? They may well be saved if they are not fully aware or do not fully understand the Christian message. There's also nothing xenophobic about it - anyone regardless of racial or religious background is welcome in Christ's Church. Anyone who says otherwise is lying to you. I agree that Ireland's refusal to take in Jews during WW2 was disgraceful and in many cases motivated by antisemitism, but I'm not sure how this is relevant to the current discussion. I am saying that beliefs have consequences, but you seem to disagree with me. If they(the Jews) were Catholics that were baptized by the Catholic Church you would have accepted them. Alas, that is indeed true and it was a disgrace that it happened. However, I don't think the architects of that policy were motivated by theological arguments about EENS as opposed to garden-variety antisemitism - the Republic has a small but influential Protestant community who have contributed much to society, as have Irish Jews.
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Post by abraham1 on Nov 18, 2023 23:18:08 GMT
I am saying that beliefs have consequences, but you seem to disagree with me. If they(the Jews) were Catholics that were baptized by the Catholic Church you would have accepted them. Alas, that is indeed true and it was a disgrace that it happened. However, I don't think the architects of that policy were motivated by theological arguments about EENS as opposed to garden-variety antisemitism - the Republic has a small but influential Protestant community who have contributed much to society, as have Irish Jews. What would you say that the 6 milon victims of the holocust, and of the 7 octobor attacks are now in heaven or in hell?
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Post by abraham1 on Nov 18, 2023 23:42:12 GMT
I am saying that beliefs have consequences, but you seem to disagree with me. If they(the Jews) were Catholics that were baptized by the Catholic Church you would have accepted them. Alas, that is indeed true and it was a disgrace that it happened. However, I don't think the architects of that policy were motivated by theological arguments about EENS as opposed to garden-variety antisemitism - the Republic has a small but influential Protestant community who have contributed much to society, as have Irish Jews. And pharoah did to the jews in Egypt and the catholic church relentless persecution of jews.
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Post by abraham1 on Nov 19, 2023 2:22:40 GMT
I am saying that beliefs have consequences, but you seem to disagree with me. If they(the Jews) were Catholics that were baptized by the Catholic Church you would have accepted them. Alas, that is indeed true and it was a disgrace that it happened. However, I don't think the architects of that policy were motivated by theological arguments about EENS as opposed to garden-variety antisemitism - the Republic has a small but influential Protestant community who have contributed much to society, as have Irish Jews. The Catholic Monarchs have initiated the Spanish Inquisition. It didn't matter much to them that many Jews/ Muslims converted to Catholicism it wasn't enough for them. How can you say that there is no correlation between the beliefs or EENS as you like to call it? and how is it not similar to pharaoh not acknowledging God?
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Post by abraham1 on Nov 19, 2023 3:30:54 GMT
I am saying that beliefs have consequences, but you seem to disagree with me. If they(the Jews) were Catholics that were baptized by the Catholic Church you would have accepted them. Alas, that is indeed true and it was a disgrace that it happened. However, I don't think the architects of that policy were motivated by theological arguments about EENS as opposed to garden-variety antisemitism - the Republic has a small but influential Protestant community who have contributed much to society, as have Irish Jews. Have you ever heard about "Disputation of Barcelona" and its aftermath? That you seem to have dismissed this idea so lightly?
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Post by hibernicus on Nov 24, 2023 21:34:18 GMT
I have heard of the Disputation of Tortosa, which is still being praised by E Michael Jones and other Catholic antisemites. It was a parody of disputation, as the Jewish participants not only participated under duress but were subject to various restrictions. The dead of the Holocaust and the victims of the recent pogrom by Hamas are judged individually by God on how they lived up to whatever light he afforded them. It is not for any individual to say that a particular person is in heaven or hell. BTW the Irish state did in fact accept a small number of baptised Jewish refugees after the annexation of Austria. More should have been done and wasn't, to our shame.
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