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Post by jamesm on Aug 11, 2013 17:37:04 GMT
I stopped believing many years ago. Is there a way to have my records (baptism, confirmation etc.) deleted or destroyed? It may seem petty, but it would mean a great deal to me.
It seems to be covered by the Data Protection Acts 1988 and 2003. The Church definitely comes under the category "Data Controller", and the Act states that data must be kept up to date. I revoke my baptism and my confirmation, in both cases I was too young to give informed consent. How do I go about requesting that any records kept by the cult are updated to reflect this?
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Post by hibernicus on Aug 11, 2013 22:11:12 GMT
First of all, to answer your query: You do not make it clear whether you want your baptismal and confirmation records destroyed altogether or to have a note of your formal apostasy added to them.
Complete destruction would be an act of historical falsification, since it is a historical fact that you were baptised and confirmed, just as it is a historical fact that Bertie Ahern was Taoiseach; however these facts may be regretted, they cannot be retrospectively undone. Furthermore, Catholic doctrine is that baptism and confirmation have a permanent effect on the soul which cannot be altered or effaced. Even if you were formally excommunicated, it will still remain the case that you are baptised and confirmed, just as (for example) Martin Luther remained a validly ordained priest after his defection and indeed he is still one today wherever he may be. I might add that if you were to change your mind in later life and seek reconciliation with the Church, the fact that you have already been baptised and ordained would be relevant.
The incorporation of a note stating that you formally renounce your membership of the Church would in my opinion be a reasonable request, and I believe the Dublin archdiocese (if that is where you are located) still keep a register of people who have contacted them to make a formal declaration of defection. However, since Canon Law was changed a few years ago there is no longer provision for someone's defection to be formally recognised, though I understand some dioceses such as Dublin keep a register of people who have contacted them to resign their church membership. I suggest that you should contact the relevant diocesan office with your request and see how you get on.
Now that I have answered your question, let me make a few points. First of all, I implore you to think again. You do not give any reasons for your unbelief; may I say that my own experience is that faith in Jesus and His Church is a source of light, happiness and peace and a never-ending intellectual stimulus, and that many great minds have explored what you seem to regard as self-evidently false. Please turn again and come back to the Father's House.
Secondly, may I point out to you that your reference to Catholicism as a "cult" is highly arrogant and offensive. As you may have noticed, this site is run and largely contributed to by believing Catholics. Describing Catholicism as "a cult" is quite a different matter from the straightforward proposition that it is false, because "cult" implies that Catholics, including the persons you are asking for advice, are a pack of mindless brainwashed zombies. This is not the way to fruitful discussion.
Finally, may I point out that you have begun this thread in a part of the site which is specifically reserved for Catholics so that they can discuss things Catholic on the basis of shared points of reference? I am moving the thread to the open forum section and I must ask you to confine future posts to that section.
There is an older thread in the forum somewhere about the now-defunct countmeout.ie website - you may find it helpful if you look it up.
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Post by jamesm on Aug 11, 2013 23:17:42 GMT
Thanks for your answer. I'm sorry if the word "cult" is offensive. A google "define:cult" query defines a cult as "A system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object".
The reasons for my unbelief are lack of evidence.
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Post by hibernicus on Aug 12, 2013 18:51:17 GMT
Dear Jamesm May I point out that the definition you give of "cult" is not the only one current. A check on Wikipedia gives the following definition: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CultEXTRACT The word cult in current usage is a pejorative term for a new religious movement[1] or other group whose beliefs or practices are considered abnormal or bizarre by the larger society.[2] The word cult is used as an ad hominem attack against groups with simply differing doctrines or practices, and without a clear or consistent definition.[3]... The word cult in original usage is a term that was used to describe a group of people who worshiped a deity. The word was first used in the early 17th century denoting homage paid to a deity and borrowed via the French culte from Latin cultus "worship", from the adjective cultus "inhabited, cultivated, worshiped", derived from the verb colere "care, cultivate."[5] END May I ask what sort of evidence you have in mind?
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Post by Not a Catholic on Mar 7, 2017 11:34:13 GMT
I was baptised clearly without my consent as a child. Likewise the Catholic cult pressure on children through school led me to confirmation. As an adult now I do not believe and I do not consider myself a Catholic. This cult then shuts the door on removing myself from the list of Catholics. And cult us not used as an insult but as a true reflection of my views.
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Sickened by the catholic churc
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Post by Sickened by the catholic churc on Mar 7, 2017 12:27:47 GMT
Destroying a baptismal document is not historical falsification. What a inane claim. It is not a legal document. Destroying it does not say it never happened, merely that the person in question does not want a record of such. For instance in data protection a person can request that all reference to them held by a company that they are no longer a customer of should be deleted. This is not to day they were never a customer, but just that they do not wish for there to be a record of such.
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Post by hibernicus on Mar 7, 2017 21:36:35 GMT
It is a legal document in terms of membership eligibility - it shows that if you change your mind in the future you don't need to be baptised again.
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Post by maolsheachlann on Sept 23, 2018 8:24:40 GMT
Does anyone have the same experience as I do-- that this thread is always the second result when I google "Irish Catholics Forum"? Rather strange given it is a minor thread with only a few replies, compared to others.
Hibernicus, I suggest you delete this thread, given its unreasonable prominence in search results (unless my experience is unique). If somebody is skewing the results, why accommodate them? And if there's some innocent explanation, well, it's hardly the subject you want in the shop window.
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 23, 2018 20:57:23 GMT
I think I'll leave it in because I think I explain the issue rather well in the second post on the thread. Also I don't like deleting material unless it is offensive - I have my suspicions about whether jamesm was spoofing, but lacking further evidence I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
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Post by Cultiswhatur! on Nov 15, 2018 19:09:01 GMT
Firstly, Hibernicus administrator, your quotation of Wikipedia's definition of "Cult" may be 100% correct at your time of writing! However, what you fail to mention or acknowledge is that Wikipedia is not an internationally recognised or accepted reliable source for verification of fact or definition. The contents of Wikipedia can be edited and added to by almost anyone without any justification or verification. Your use in this regard is extremely disingenuous and somewhat hypocritical and shows a certain lack of understanding and knowledge of such things. But it is also typical of the Catholic and other religious organisational mindsets that I have personally encountered in my lifetime, to use something to it's own end one moment & turn around and berate it at another, as the wind suits.
I am also one who finds themselves trapped by your Cultist organisation, namely the catholic church. Why are persons who share the same wishes as me not allowed to walk away, especially, as you say, the church will welcome us back if we chose to return. This is about one thing only. Numbers! The more numbers the church can show, the more power than can wield over peoples and/or governments.
I do not deny, nor would I ever dare attempt to deny your right to believe or your freedom to practice your faith or be associated with or a member of any church organisation. I would, however insist that you and your ilk, allow me the freedom to walk away and renounce & denounce my belief in this religion/cult.
Indeed, I have seen instances where the organisation has brought peace, kindness, love & solace to people. Equally, I have seen these traits displayed by others not involved in organised religion. I do not seek to berate the ordinary people of the church or demean in anyway those who claim to believe, nor should I. I am one brought up in rural Ireland, deeply catholic, have been on pilgrimage to Lough Derg 3 times, was a member of the Legion of Mary and did my duty as an altar boy. In other words, I gave it a go. As I entered my teens I grew less enamored and more questioning. By adulthood, my mind had changed to where I have absolutely no belief nor faith in a higher power as is my right.
If any organisation has to rely on the indoctrination of babies and children too young to speak for themselves, then I want no part of it. The church in Ireland is dying a slow and painful death. Look at the pews on a Sunday, the reduction in priests available for parishes & diocesan work. The massive reduction in the amount of those seeking Holy Orders. The complete abandonment of belief amongst the young. And the churches insistence on treating women and LGBT as second and third class citizens. The church are dealing with highly educated and intelligent individuals in the West. They are choosing to leave in droves. Why? I contend one of the main reasons, as my own main reason, the Church is power obsessed, wealth obsessed, cares more about protecting the hierarchy than the people it claims to serve. It's management style nor it's structures are no longer fit for purpose.
If the Carpenters son were to rise and walk among us today, what would he say? How would he react to the rampant abuse of power & the obsession with wealth? Who would he attack? Who would he defend? Who would be the source and target of his parables. Unless the Church fully embraces both the need for major transformational reform along with the implementation of same then the catholic churches days are numbered. If members, like me, wish to renounce their faith and walk away, then let them. We hurt no one, nor do we seek to do so. If you truly believe in god, then trust that god will bring us back to the fold if that is where they truly belong.
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Post by maolsheachlann on Nov 16, 2018 10:30:31 GMT
If members, like me, wish to renounce their faith and walk away, then let them. We hurt no one, nor do we seek to do so. If you truly believe in god, then trust that god will bring us back to the fold if that is where they truly belong. You don't hurt no-one. You first of all hurt yourself because you are turning away from the one Church Jesus Christ founded. You are also hurting everybody to whom you broadcast your bad example. "If you truly believe in God, then trust that God will bring us back to the fold if that is where they truly belong". God believes in freedom and is not going to force you back into his Church or into his friendship for eternity. I respect your freedom of conscience but are you sure, absolutely sure, that your motives are of the highest in this? Reading your words I detect a lot of anger and hurt and, while I fully sympathise with this, I fear it might be clouding your judgement. You have produced a long list of talking points which have been answered exhaustively in many, many places. It would not be difficult to find videos, articles etc. replying to each one if you try. Nobody claims the Church is perfect, but when you ask what Jesus would say if he walked the earth today, you overlook what he DID say when he walked the earth: "On this rock I build my Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it." He also said: "He who perseveres to the end will be saved." I urge you to reconsider. Life is short, eternity is long. We are born for eternity with God and that is what the Church offers us, flawed as she is in her human aspect.
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Post by Claritas on Nov 17, 2018 3:22:02 GMT
Cultiswhatur! - No one is going to stop you leaving. You have already left. There is no longer any formal process for leaving (which in any case only existed for a short while). You just decide you have left, and you have left. That's it. Old Records record an old event took place, not what the present status is.
" They are choosing to leave in droves. Why? I contend one of the main reasons, as my own main reason, the Church is power obsessed, wealth obsessed, cares more about protecting the hierarchy than the people it claims to serve. It's management style nor it's structures are no longer fit for purpose."
This is true, but for every person like this in the management of the the Catholic Church, there are far more who are not. If you put your faith in people and this world instead of God, you will continually disappointed, angry, hurt and let down regardless of what organisation/group you're dealing with. Do me this small favour, even if you strongly doubt the existence of God, try this simple experiment with an open mind : Find a quite still place, and pray from the heart - ask God where is he, and what's going on, and to guide you / show you.
God bless and keep you, and may God grant you any spiritual graces you seek.
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Post by Claritas on Nov 25, 2018 13:52:29 GMT
God is never far from us, though we may have strayed far from God. Daily prayer is the way to stay close to God and protect us against evil, and is also the conduit through which Jesus can deliver many graces from his loving sacred heart to us.
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Post by hibernicus on Nov 29, 2018 22:46:11 GMT
Wikipedia is not a 100% reliable source, but I know enough on this area to know when they are broadly correct. As an alternative, I refer you to GOD SAVE ULSTER! THE RELIGION AND POLITICS OF PAISLEYISM by Steve Bruce, who is an internationally renowned sociologist of religion. He distinguishes between a sect and a cult as follows: A sect (like Free Presbyterianism) subscribes to certain doctrines and practices which are not dependent on, and cannot be changed by, the leadership. A cult will change its doctrines and practices at the arbitrary decision of the leader(s), and thus makes them the only determinant of truth. Thus, David Berg of the Children of God was able to get his followers to change from sexual puritanism to libertinism within a few months, while Paisley, though very powerful, could not have got up in his pulpit and (say) announced that salvation by faith alone is incorrect, that purgatory exists etc. (Indeed, some years after Bruce wrote, the FP Church removed Paisley as moderator because they disagreed with his political decisions.) By this standard the Palmarian Church is a cult and the Church of Rome is not (though note the author of this account of the Palmarians to which I link rejects the use of "cult" as excessively perjorative: magnuslundbergblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/the-papacy-of-gregory-xviii-final.pdfI just wish some of Pope Francis's more enthusiastic cheerleaders were aware of this cult/sect distinction.
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Post by hibernicus on Aug 11, 2019 20:46:19 GMT
Boris Johnson (unintentionally) provides an answer on this point. He was baptised a Catholic but formally left the Church when he chose to be confirmed as an Anglican. The Church regards someone who formally joins another religious body as having ceased to be a Catholic. Oddly enough, this is similar to Judaism. When Ed Miliband said that if elected he would be the first Jewish Prime Minister of Great Britain, even though he is totally non-observant and an atheist and Benjamin Disraeli was PM in the nineteenth century, he was going on a definition of Judaism which holds that one ceases to become a Jew when received into another religious body (as Disraeli was when he was baptised into the Church of England in late childhood) but otherwise remains a Jew however lapsed. (The parallel may not be exact since Judaism has a genetic element, but there's a definite similarity.)
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