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Post by Young Ireland on Jul 11, 2015 20:27:50 GMT
OK, as promised, here's my response to Part 1:
I think the axis proposed by Ranger is a good one, and is one I would broadly agree with in my own experience. I think that even within the two camps, there are differences in approach, if nowhere near as serious. In Camp A for example, YD seem happy to avoid using religious imagery themselves and usually avoid expressly religious arguments, (much to the consternation of some of their support) whilst allowing others to do so if they wish: PL are more willing to use religious imagery themselves and wish that others would do likewise. In Camp B, on the other hand, F&L was originally close to YD, before taking a different line to them in 2002. I think that they like to be on good terms with both groups, though their supporters often align themselves to either camp. I also think that supporters of the SSPX almost entirely fit into Camp A rather than B, whereas traditionalists within the Church seem to be divided. I think that there are also broad geographical factors at play. Camp A predominates roughly north of a line including the N6 and the Liffey, Camp B to the south. There are exceptions: Camp B seems to predominate along the DART, while Camp A is relatively strong in much of Cork, parts of Wexford, and other enclaves elsewhere. In the commuter counties around Dublin, this seems to be split due to migration. The Brandsma Review's readership is definitely in Camp B for the most part, while there is an absence of a more strident Irish traditionalist publication for those in Camp A, though historically, the Irish Family Press and the Hibernian filled this gap.
I think there are organisational differences between the two camp as well. Camp A is smaller, but can mobilise its support much easier than Camp A, whereas most non-active practising Catholics, orthodox or else, align themselves with Camp B by default, making mobilisation much more difficult. I might add some more thoughts as they come to me, but it's certainly a very good and thorough analysis, Ranger. Well done.
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Post by Ranger on Jul 13, 2015 20:15:59 GMT
Wordpress might be a deterrent to comments, I just tried to leave a comment myself but I couldn't remember my Wordpress account password, I tried a few different ones and eventually I had used up my log-in attempts! I'll have to write it down for the future, when I work it out. I took a look at this and it's actually possible to comment using facebook, or even just by leaving your email address which is kept private (and of course I won't go publishing people's emails). Unless you mean it would be easier with your blogger profile? I find that I personally prefer the aesthetics that wordpress offers, but then that might just be me!
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Post by Ranger on Jul 13, 2015 20:20:48 GMT
OK, as promised, here's my response to Part 1: I think the axis proposed by Ranger is a good one, and is one I would broadly agree with in my own experience. I think that even within the two camps, there are differences in approach, if nowhere near as serious. In Camp A for example, YD seem happy to avoid using religious imagery themselves and usually avoid expressly religious arguments, (much to the consternation of some of their support) whilst allowing others to do so if they wish: PL are more willing to use religious imagery themselves and wish that others would do likewise. In Camp B, on the other hand, F&L was originally close to YD, before taking a different line to them in 2002. I think that they like to be on good terms with both groups, though their supporters often align themselves to either camp. I also think that supporters of the SSPX almost entirely fit into Camp A rather than B, whereas traditionalists within the Church seem to be divided. I think that there are also broad geographical factors at play. Camp A predominates roughly north of a line including the N6 and the Liffey, Camp B to the south. There are exceptions: Camp B seems to predominate along the DART, while Camp A is relatively strong in much of Cork, parts of Wexford, and other enclaves elsewhere. In the commuter counties around Dublin, this seems to be split due to migration. The Brandsma Review's readership is definitely in Camp B for the most part, while there is an absence of a more strident Irish traditionalist publication for those in Camp A, though historically, the Irish Family Press and the Hibernian filled this gap. I think there are organisational differences between the two camp as well. Camp A is smaller, but can mobilise its support much easier than Camp A, whereas most non-active practising Catholics, orthodox or else, align themselves with Camp B by default, making mobilisation much more difficult. I might add some more thoughts as they come to me, but it's certainly a very good and thorough analysis, Ranger. Well done. Thanks very much for the detailed response, I am glad to see that these camps aren't just in my own head! Again the thing is it is a spectrum, and I think in a way there are many 'A Trads' and 'B Trads' and likewise 'A liberals' and 'B liberals'. An interesting point about those who are not very active possibly leaning very much towards Camp B, but I can see that; Camp A is very much into apparitions, miracles etc. and to a degree the charismatic movement, and I think that there's a core of Irish Catholics who would be a bit put off by that kind of spirituality, as much as devotions have a large place in the Irish Church. The point about Camp B predominating along the Dart line is important, because I think class enters into it to a degree as I believe Hibernicus and Alaisdir raised elsewhere. I like the geographical analysis though as I wouldn't have thought of it. I think that the North is perhaps in a different category altogether but I'd need to think about it more.
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Post by Ranger on Jul 13, 2015 20:21:51 GMT
I think there are organisational differences between the two camp as well. Camp A is smaller, but can mobilise its support much easier than Camp A, whereas most non-active practising Catholics, orthodox or else, align themselves with Camp B by default, making mobilisation much more difficult. I take it you meant to say that 'Camp A is smaller, but can mobilise its support much easier than Camp B'?
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Post by Young Ireland on Jul 13, 2015 20:34:53 GMT
I agree with everything you've said there, Ranger. I agree that class does play a role in the alignment of Catholics. Incidentally, I think that one symptom of this is the tendency of Camp A to support economic populism, whereas Camp B in general seem to be more supportive of economic liberalism. Personally, I think the North has its own character, with the vast majority of active practising Catholics there in what would be described here as Camp A: Precious Life are quite happy to broadcast their Catholicism in contrast to their allies in the South, for understandable reasons. Again, I think that this might be due to historical reasons such as the lack of a strong Catholic middle class as existed here in the South. Another category worth considering is the Travelling Community: their spirituality is very charismatic and devotional, and as such seem more at home in Camp A, though I can' say for sure.
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Post by Young Ireland on Jul 13, 2015 20:42:56 GMT
I think there are organisational differences between the two camp as well. Camp A is smaller, but can mobilise its support much easier than Camp A, whereas most non-active practising Catholics, orthodox or else, align themselves with Camp B by default, making mobilisation much more difficult. I take it you meant to say that 'Camp A is smaller, but can mobilise its support much easier than Camp B'? Oh yes, sorry about that
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Post by hibernicus on Jul 13, 2015 22:07:46 GMT
Precious Life has been willing to work with Protestants as well as Catholics. I think their high-profile Catholicism owes something to the status of Northern Catholics as a "protected minority", whereas the situation in the Republic is different.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Jul 15, 2015 8:09:13 GMT
I've been away, but I have had time today to wade through 10 pages of posts.
I particularly studied the three fascinating pieces of analysis on Ranger's blog, commented here by Young Ireland.
The analysis is interesting, and if class, education and geography plays a part, so to does politics: I suspect you'll find more people of Fianna Fáil background among type A and more of Fine Gael in type B (and if I believe in the ethnic dissection of the parties' support based, more Gaelic Irish among A and more Anglo-Normans among B). I am not being totally facetious as the A/B divide reminds me both of the Treaty debate/Civil War and of the Confederation of Kilkenny. Cavete. Remember the principle "divisa et impera".
It is a black mark on the more orthodox Catholics that their zeal wanes when it comes to the poor, especially by comparison to the liberal. This is a real failing.
In regard to the (very useful) ACP analysis of the census breakdown, I have one critique: the ACP would seek answers which fit their own agenda. But they still have a point.
Anyway, Ranger is providing not only where we are at, but by this dissection we can begin looking for ways of getting out of this corner. This is good.
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Post by Young Ireland on Jul 15, 2015 21:05:23 GMT
I've been away, but I have had time today to wade through 10 pages of posts. I particularly studied the three fascinating pieces of analysis on Ranger's blog, commented here by Young Ireland. The analysis is interesting, and if class, education and geography plays a part, so to does politics: I suspect you'll find more people of Fianna Fáil background among type A and more of Fine Gael in type B (and if I believe in the ethnic dissection of the parties' support based, more Gaelic Irish among A and more Anglo-Normans among B). I am not being totally facetious as the A/B divide reminds me both of the Treaty debate/Civil War and of the Confederation of Kilkenny. Cavete. Remember the principle "divisa et impera". It is a black mark on the more orthodox Catholics that their zeal wanes when it comes to the poor, especially by comparison to the liberal. This is a real failing. In regard to the (very useful) ACP analysis of the census breakdown, I have one critique: the ACP would seek answers which fit their own agenda. But they still have a point. Anyway, Ranger is providing not only where we are at, but by this dissection we can begin looking for ways of getting out of this corner. This is good. Agreed, Alaisdir. I'm not sure though if the FF/FG divide is of much significance in itself: many leading PLC figures in the past (e.g. Des Hanafin) have long been associated with FF, while Justin Barrett was involved in Young FG before joining YD. I do think (and Ranger touched on it in his blogpost) that Camp A are more nationalistic in general than Camp B. The Civil War and Confederation analogies I very much agree with: there might also be similarities with the rugby union/league divide in England and pillarisation in the Netherlands, as your invocation of divide and conquer. Though I'm not a nationalist in the conventional sense, I do think that any solutions to our problems should be indigenous or specifically tailored to the needs and tastes of Irish Catholics. Certainly, I'm quite happy to borrow ideas from the States and other places, but the problem with many of these, as implemented currently is that they are done so without any understanding of the differences between the home culture and Ireland. Incidentally, I think that this explains some of Youth 2000's success here: they're British and therefore can take advantage of the cultural similarities between us and the UK, while adapting to the differences in Irish preferences. I might add more to this later.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Jul 16, 2015 10:59:27 GMT
I see it more as a tendency: of course there are plenty of FF people in B and some FG people in A. But A corresponds to a lot of FF genius - organisation for example. FF, until 2011, inherited something of an organisation skill which goes right back to Parnell and O'Connell and which was seen in the US Democratic party too. FG, on the other hand, has had more thoughtful people within its ranks over time, but they could never connect with the people the way FF have done. I think the two tendencies are very necessary in a successful movement.
FF have been very dominated by the gut, and have been weak on developing a rationale for where they stand. They have been effective in executing policy, but bad on critiquing or initiating policy. They haven't articulated where they stand very well. FG is the opposite - good on policy development (not that I agree with those policies uniformly), but poor on execution. More an opposition party than government party.
To take the Confederation analogy, the Anglo-Normans had the best insight on policy, but they didn't have a general to match Owen Roe O'Neill in skill. Their failure to trust him and the failure of the Gaelic Irish and Archbishop Rinucinni to be realistic led to its defeat. Cromwell's success was by no means a foregone conclusion and many on the parliamentary side in England hoped he would not return from the adventure in Ireland. Instead, he came back much stronger. The whole sorry history is reminiscent of the divisions in pre-Norman Ireland which the Normans exploited and Henry II in turn used to keep his own barons at each other's throats too. These are our kinsmen - our ancestors. The Civil War shows our ability of repeating our mistakes. This is stuff we really have to learn from.
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Post by Ranger on Sept 12, 2015 16:34:17 GMT
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Post by Ranger on Jan 12, 2016 21:53:47 GMT
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Post by maolsheachlann on Jan 12, 2016 22:03:35 GMT
Ranger, you are the George Lucas of bloggers!
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Post by Ranger on Jan 12, 2016 22:12:46 GMT
I don't know if I should consider that a compliment or...?
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Post by hibernicus on Jan 12, 2016 22:13:36 GMT
Is that supposed to be a compliment? George Lucas is good with images but can't write for toffee. (Alec Guinness's comments on the STAR WARS script, which was still being written as they were filming, are absolutely scathing.)
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