National Identity

[pugio]

Oct 15, 2015 16:23:31 GMT Young Ireland said:

Oct 15, 2015 14:16:31 GMT pugio said:

I was not making any argument other than that many people, such as yourself, are uncomfortable with visceral nationalism. I think you have given a pretty good example of why.

I would venture, however, that the dark absurdity of the R/CIRA apostolic succession thesis lies precisely in its attempt to cobble together some sort of quasi-democratic justification for a cause whose seat is in the heart and stomach rather than in the head. They would be far more intellectually respectable if they just declared themselves fascists or at least authoritarian ultra-nationalists of some kind.

Ok, Pugio, sorry. I thought you were making an argument there. You are quite right about the R/CIRA. I suspect though that said groups may have the same "we are the people" delusion that has plagued the Christian parties, so it mightn't always be a sign of authoritarianism, though it would be usually.

Oh I wasn't suggesting that they are all secretly authoritarians. I have no doubt that, as you say, some of them imagine themselves to be expressing the true will of the people, and would be quite devastated to learn just how little people care. I just think their position would be more coherent if it they claimed to be a vanguard acting on behalf of the nation, which is a rather different thing to the electorate.

Before we get too cosy, I will confess a certain dark and wild sympathy for nationalistic vanguardism myself, though not, of course, of the dim-witted and sadistic variety we are discussing now.

[hibernicus]

One point that has struck me a fair bit in recent years is that a lot of criticism of the Rising and its "national honour" ethos (like a lot of criticism of communism) is based on a form of liberal-utilitarian individualism which has some problematic implications. That doesn't mean I'm in favour of the Rising, any more than I'm in favour of communism, but it does make me uncomfortable.
A cynical thought about the official commemorations - they resemble one classic rationale for having an established church - not to promote religion but to damp it down, and keep it away from those disturbing people who actually believe in it.

[rogerbuck]

As ever, I am reluctant to enter this thread, given that I have pondered these issues much less than other folk here as well as other issues (e.g.. the Latin Mass which I just commented on.)

But my belief in a mysterious essential good in 1916 has been ever growing these last years, the beauty part in the "terrible beauty" …

Even if I find it hard to trust my own processes yet, I cannot help but trust de Valera's.

Dev, who is not problematic to me in the way that Pearse sometimes is, Dev who it seems to me upholds so much about 1916, but subtly refuses Pearse (e.g. he carries on much of Pearse, but drops, or at least vastly diminishes, the demonising English rhetoric …)

One day I hope to be adequately informed and articulate about this. For now, I whisper my belief in Dev and the beauty and importance of 1916, whilst not forgetting the "terrible" ...

[maolsheachlann]

Roger, there is a joke about De Valera: "Why are there no streets named after De Valera? Because they couldn't find one long enough and crooked enough."

I admire him too but he has a reputation for being somewhat Machiavellian in his methods, especially his apparent U-turn after the Civil War, and the financing of the Irish Press.

(By the way, you are as much entitled to an opinion on this subject as anybody else. I am sure you have already garnered more knowledge of 1916 and the period afterwards as many Irish people.)

[rogerbuck]

Thank you, maolsheachlann. This is why I hesitate to wade in here much (yet). I'm still finding my way with issues like the important ones you mention.

That said, I find it very hard to think of Dev as "crooked". I am more willing to forgive the civil war issues than many, pardoning a still not fully tested and mature man in an extraordinary situation.

But as for the more mature Dev in the 30s, 40s onwards … my opinion goes up and up and up the more I read, which is several books now either completed or still in process. (Admittedly Coogan's negative take is still in process.)

Ferriter's book is very good and his final page summation is worth noting. I'm tempted to type some in, but I will limit myself to Ferriter's last 7 words of the book calling Dev "a unique politician and a noble one."

Noble politicians are a rare breed in themselves! But for me the word noble doesn't go far enough … I see a man of great depth, vision, beauty. A great part of Catholic Ireland once lionised him. Today we write that off as Fianna Fail hagiography … but I wonder if we now suffer from the opposite: a cynical "inverted hagiography".

[pugio]

Has anyone heard about the Celts exhibition in the British museum? It sounds excellent. www.britishmuseum.org/whats_on/exhibitions/celts.aspx

I heard one of the curators interviewed on a BBC history podcast and subsequently a small feature on the Marian Finucane show. This interests me because I have always been very suspicious of the 'Celtic' label as anachronistic and, well, kind of fake...

From what I gather, the exhibition pretty much supports that scepticism but with a twist. The curator acknowledges that the peoples now referred to as 'Celts' are almost certainly not the people whom the Greeks first referred to as 'keltoi' and that the name was re-applied to them retrospectively by English scholars. However she also defends the contemporary use of the term on the basis that the cultural differences it describes are genuine in themselves. Any thoughts?

[halfirishandproud]

Hi
I Have A Question For You ?
I Am Half Irish And Half Indian
half Indian Meaning From India
I am a Roman Catholic

My Name Is Kyle Edwards
My Question Is Would I Be Considered Irish Even Though I Am Half Irish
My Ancestors Are Irish

[halfirishandproud]

Hi
I have a question

see the thing is i am Half Irish and Half Indian
Half Indian Meaning From India

I am Roman Catholic by Birth
My Ancestors are Irish who served in the East Indian Compamy And British Army Which Were Here in India
After Conducting Research We Found That Our Ancestors Are Irishmen who served in the East Indian Company and British Army

My Name Is Kyle Edwards

And My Question Is :-
Since I Am Half Irish Will I Still Be Considered Irish ?

[Young Ireland]

Oct 24, 2015 6:33:23 GMT halfirishandproud said:

Hi
I have a question

see the thing is i am Half Irish and Half Indian
Half Indian Meaning From India

I am Roman Catholic by Birth
My Ancestors are Irish who served in the East Indian Compamy And British Army Which Were Here in India
After Conducting Research We Found That Our Ancestors Are Irishmen who served in the East Indian Company and British Army

My Name Is Kyle Edwards

And My Question Is :-
Since I Am Half Irish Will I Still Be Considered Irish ?

This should answer your question:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ1WcEAgtXE

But seriously, there are many Americans whose great-grandparents emigrated, and who have never set foot in Ireland, yet still call themselves Irish. If they are, there is no reason why you can't be considered Irish either. I hope that helps.

[irishconfederate]

Dear halfirishandproud,

The question of Irish identity and what defines Irishness was elucidated by the prominent Irish nationalist Thomas Davis:

"It is not blood that makes you Irish but a willingness to be part of the Irish Nation."[72]

I took that off the Wikipedia page on Irish people.

That coincides with the philosopher Desmond Fennell's social idealism in 'Beyond Nationalism':

"Represent the Irish nation as consisting of those people who consider themselves members of it"

So if you choose to be a member of the Irish nation - that community of communities - you are! Welcome my fellow Irishman:)

Pax

[halfirishandproud]

Dear Irishconfederate and Young Ireland,

Thank you for replying it makes me real happy to know that i am part of an amazing community . Thank You For Welcoming me into an amazing community.

Out here in India there are many Irish Indians and there are many who do not know they are half irish i am helping people discover their Irish Ancestors.

One More Question :-
Since I am Half Irish And Half Indian my skin colour is light brown does this affect my Irishness ? how will people in Ireland view me a Half Irishman with Light Brown Skin.

And are the both of you from Ireland ?

[halfirishandproud]

Dear Irishconfederate and Young Ireland,

Do You Know any Irishmen with the lastname/surname
Edwards ?

[maolsheachlann]

Oct 24, 2015 10:40:47 GMT halfirishandproud said:

Since I am Half Irish And Half Indian my skin colour is light brown does this affect my Irishness ? how will people in Ireland view me a Half Irishman with Light Brown Skin.

Of course it doesn't affect your Irishness. People here might take a visual cue from your complexion and not guess you are Irish, but if you tell them your background and that you consider yourself Irish, the vast majority will be happy with that. There are many Irish people with dark skin, like the late rock musician Phil Lynott and the footballer Paul McGrath, who are very much loved in Ireland. Good luck.

[Young Ireland]

Oct 24, 2015 10:40:47 GMT halfirishandproud said:

Dear Irishconfederate and Young Ireland,

Thank you for replying it makes me real happy to know that i am part of an amazing community . Thank You For Welcoming me into an amazing community.

Out here in India there are many Irish Indians and there are many who do not know they are half irish i am helping people discover their Irish Ancestors.

One More Question :-
Since I am Half Irish And Half Indian my skin colour is light brown does this affect my Irishness ? how will people in Ireland view me a Half Irishman with Light Brown Skin.

And are the both of you from Ireland ?

No problem. I completely agree with Maolscheachlann's answer above. That's some very interesting work in India you are doing. How many people have Irish ancestry over there? I am indeed from Ireland and have lived there all my life btw.

[irishconfederate]

Dear halfirishandproud,

I was born and bred in England to Irish parents. I found the form of the term "London-Irish" very helpful in understanding my Irish identity. As someone from India, I would say you would be Indian-Irish, and if there was a community of Indian-Irish in your area, say it was Delhi, I would say you would be Delhi-Irish.

Also, I am aware that I am a member of two nations. Two communities which I love and serve and which I can't help but contribute towards. I have dual nationality -regardless of how the law defines that- I am both Irish and English. Or as people say "half Irish". Personally I find saying "half Irish" a bit problematic. I tend to simply explain to people that I am, lets say....Birmingham-Irish, that I have dual nationality and if necessary explain that by saying I am a member of two communities which I am a part of. If you feel "half Irish" is fine stick with it.

A little funny story.....

Once an English man asked me and said "Well if push came to shove what nation would you choose?"

I straight away said "You mean, what if there was a war between the two. I'd choose Ireland"

He was taken a back a bit and surprised and said "I meant if the two were playing in a football match"

Also with regard to acceptance, my fellow Irishman, it can be hard at times to find acceptance from the Irish born in Ireland, whether they may be living resident in Ireland or abroad.

You have to learn to laugh at yourself, but also hold on to some knowledge of the history of the Irish Abroad - including those specifically who were also people like yourself and I, who weren't born in Ireland or whose parents/grandparents/so on weren't born there

- and yet served our community, the Irish nation, to an outstanding degree.

James Connolly, Tom Clarke, Éamon De Valera weren't born in Ireland and did so.

......

Others and their children, and their children's children, remained in America, Scotland, or even India........and did so too.

As from my last post, I find a little knowledge of some prominent figures speaking on "What it means to be Irish?" like Thomas Davis, very heartening also.

Good luck halfirishandproud and take heart.