|
Post by rogerbuck on May 1, 2013 4:06:46 GMT
I am really finding this forum more and more interesting - and helpful. Maybe two days ago, I wrote that I wanted to start a thread: England and Holland, say, are lost. But Ireland and maybe some Eastern European countries, maybe Spain are not yet lost. Something must be done. My soul screams. Totally off this topic, so perhaps I should start another thread about it. But I wonder about Eastern Europeans in Ireland. If they can help. Hibernicus had a very interesting post about the resurgence of Orthodoxy in Russia. Clearly something is happening in Hungary. I wonder about these Poles, Lithuanians, Hungarians in Ireland ... Only to find out that thread already existed! People's links and insights particularly useful to me. Thank you. I think this is an important topic and will say more when I can
|
|
|
Post by rogerbuck on May 4, 2013 10:16:05 GMT
I want to say a lot in this thread. But for now, I just want to refer some to quotes. The first is actually from myself from another thread: Holy Mystery - when I ... and heard you speak openly of your soul being enveloped in great love of Our Lord, my first instinct was that you were a woman. I was surprised - and moved! - to discover you were a man in your forties. This is because in my experience, while such open piety still persists in women, it seems to be dying out in men. Men in recent centuries seem to be more afflicted by an arid rationalism (something entirely different from creative use of reason) that stifles open displays of piety ... But I said above "in my experience" and I realise that my experience is really very limited to America and Western/Central Europe. I don't know Eastern Europe at all and although it is sheer speculation on my part, I found myself wondering if you were one of our Eastern European friends in Ireland. Maybe just crazy speculation on my part. But I will say more about this at the thread here about Poles in Ireland - because I really am so glad Eastern Europeans are here ... And now Hibernicus: I remember the comparison occurred to me when I was last in Knock. There were a lot of Poles there (I think on pilgrimage) and I was struck by their slightly unkempt working-class appearance and fervent collective devotion ... Another point BTW is that the Irish in 50s Britain were often seen as an embarrassment to English Catholics who preferred more subdued forms of devotion, with less emphasis on Marianism (or more compromised and watered-down approaches). I suspect Poles experience the same thing here even in relation to some practising Catholics - certainly they experience it in contemporary England, where the bishops have had the effrontery to lecture them on the need to blend in with the local population and be Catholics in the proper English way. Effrontery indeed! "Fervent collective devotion", as Hibernicus puts it, is not for everyone. However, I wonder if it reveals a vital organ in the body of the Church. Without that organ the body dies. I really think Poles and Eastern Europeans are bringing something very important here. But I must find time to formulate it properly.
|
|
|
Post by chercheur on May 24, 2013 21:09:12 GMT
Were it not for the presence of the Poles in our midst the sight of adults under the age of 45 attending mass while not "en famille" would be a rarity given the reality that mass attendance among the Irish of that age group has fallen off the proverbial cliff.
One little instance from me. Some time ago at an evening mass on Sunday I noticed an impossibly beautiful and graceful girl about 25 kneeling on the stone floor throughout the Consecration and through to Communion. Needless to say she was Polish. To be frank I was mesmerised by the sight of that admixture of physical beauty and open devotion. Holding the door open for her at the end of mass felt like an honour. A faithful devout and beautiful catholic girl.....surely the supreme beauty we have.
The presence of people like her can in a way uplift and inspire.
|
|
|
Post by hibernicus on Sept 7, 2013 22:37:25 GMT
This piece from the American leftie journal THE NATION on the intellectual evolution of the recently-deceased Polish philosopher Leszek Kolakowski from Marxism to a form of heterodox theism and admiration for John Paul II may be of interest. (warning - the NATION is both very leftie and very secularist, and the author really goes demented at the sight of Kolakowski believing that JPII's theological positions need to be taken seriously and cannot be dismissed out of hand). This is incidentally a warning against assuming that Poles are all naturally pious Catholics: www.thenation.com/article/176016/jester-and-priest-leszek-kolakowski?page=full#
|
|
|
Post by rogerbuck on Sept 8, 2013 8:16:30 GMT
This point is well-taken. However, I find what Chercheur has written beautiful. simply beautiful. I take it that Chercheur is in the city, Dublin I imagine. For in rural Ireland, one certainly sees people under 45 and not en famillie ... I dropped this thread months ago when personal difficulties arose. But I want to pick it up again. While Hibernicus's point is certainly true, I want to understand what the Polish presence here really means. I find after checking, that it is about three per cent of the population. There is obviously a significant Lithuanian contingent as well. I would like to get a better sense of the Hungarians as well (I was startled by the presence of a Hungarian dental clinic on the high street of Letterkenny, whatever that may mean.) I am not overly familiar with the Hungarian situation, beyond knowing that it is not simply Catholic but also Protestant - and that its government recently took measures to outrage "progressives" everywhere. I am confessing naivety here. I am not commending the Hungarian legislation - I need to find time to study it more. But uneducated as I am in these matters still, I think it is very striking indeed that three - four percent of the population of this country is now Polish, Lithuanian, Hungarian etc. And I wonder if it is providential ... Anything else to help educate me here about Eastern Europeans in Ireland will be much appreciated.
|
|
|
Post by rogerbuck on Sept 9, 2013 10:36:31 GMT
I am going to start leaving entries in this thread, both as future notes to myself for an article I may write, as well as anyone else who may be interested.
Anybody else who leaves observations here I will be grateful to.
I find that according to the 2011 census, the number of people who spoke Irish daily outside the education system was 77,185.
This compares to:
Language Number of speakers Polish 119,526 French 56,430 Lithuanian 31,635
Adding together the Polish and Lithuanian figures comes to virtually 3.3 percent of the 2011 population. And there must be some Poles, Lithuanians who by 2011 had intermarried or assimilated in other ways and were no longer speaking their native language in the home. So this along with other Eastern European groupings, people undeclared on the census, etc might well mean four to five percent from the East of Europe (??).
It strikes me as very significant indeed, if they do remain, intermarry and assimilate.
And despite Hibernicus's (well-taken) prudence above, I do imagine they are bringing a certain religious intensity here that can help the Church.
On another note, the French figure strikes me as well! I am fascinated by the connection between these two countries. According to Mary Kenny, there were even proposals in 1922 to make French the third national language ...
|
|
|
Post by hibernicus on Apr 24, 2014 21:29:52 GMT
|
|
|
Post by hibernicus on Apr 28, 2014 21:33:40 GMT
|
|
|
Post by hibernicus on Aug 13, 2014 13:34:13 GMT
This piece from an American Catholic blog which criticises the identification of US Catholicism with "neoconservative" Republicanism by commenters like George Weigel argues that the Catholic personalism which underlay the original Solidarity union was betrayed by the adoption of free-market liberalism in post-communist Poland, and emphasises the human costs of the economic transition (including the closing down of traditional heavy industries such as the Gdansk shipyard) which help to explain why so many Poles emigrated to Western Europe (including IReland). It states some younger Polish Catholic intellectuals have reacted against the equation of Catholicism and the freemarket associated with figures such as George Weigel and Michael Novak, and are trying to recover Solidarity's original personalist inspiration. Note that I post this for information only and do not necessarily endorse it (for one thing, it does not spell out very clearly - or at all - what the alternative to Balcerowicz's shock therapy might have been or what the consequences of another course of action might have been). It should serve as a reminder of how little we know about actual developments in Poland and a warning against simplistic narratives on the lines of "JP II toppled the communists and the Poles lived happily ever after". I also note that this piece seems (so far at least) not to carry some of the more dubious baggage often associated with trad attacks on "Catholic neoconservatives" - i.e. conspiracy theories which speculate about the ethnic origins of the conspirators, Catholic-monarchist nostalgia, etc ethikapolitika.org/2014/08/12/polish-lesson-communism-solidarity-capitalism/
|
|
|
Post by hibernicus on Oct 16, 2015 19:04:10 GMT
A Polish correspondent to CRISIS offers an account of the current Polish political situation. He argues that the current Civic Platform government has moved away from its Christian Democrat roots through desire to be in the European mainstream, and sees hope in the recent election of a president from the opposition Law and Justice party. Once again, bear in mind that this article represents one person's viewpoint and is offered as that and nothing more: www.crisismagazine.com/2015/polands-presidential-election-and-the-future-of-european-catholicism
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2015 9:50:03 GMT
Just out of curiosity, are the Polish people who come here really any more Catholic than the majority of irish people here? Especially long-term? Not n easy question, I know, but maybe they become indifferent to the faith over time too?
|
|
|
Post by Ranger on Oct 26, 2015 12:33:26 GMT
I've known a good number of Poles who have come to a lot of Church events, things like Youth 2000 and other groups; not certain if they're a minority or not though. They often seem to have their own faith groups and as has been mentioned before I think that integration could be done better.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2015 12:51:29 GMT
That's a shame. I'd be more than happy to welcome them if I knew them. I know there's a Polish shop close enough to where I live, but I don't know how religious the people there are. I wonder if somehow that's one way of meeting the Polish community halfway?
|
|
|
Post by hibernicus on Oct 26, 2015 19:48:05 GMT
There are some suggestions in coverage of Poland that it is younger people who emigrate and they are less likely to be religious - certainly Polish overseas voters are supposed to be less likely to favour national/conservatives, though it's not the same thing (supporting PiS is not an article of the faith). It might be worth going along to St Audoen's sometime (I've never been since the TLM moved to St Kevin's and the Poles took over) though how effective that would be in terms of making contact I don't know- especially if the congregation see it as somewhere they can chat in Polish. HEre we see Politics.ie discussing the Polish election results, seen in Irish terms with PiS as old-style FF and with an emphasis on metropolitan/provincial and Catholic/secular divides (links to some Guardian stories presenting rural Poles as Catholic cavemen). As always on that site, the discussion displays more heat than light www.politics.ie/forum/europe/242440-polish-general-election-2015-politics-piss-poo.html
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2015 15:40:14 GMT
Great thread title....
Anyway, maybe if I ever get my idea of the ground I could drop some in there or something. See what happens.
Edit - I think I've passed that church before.
|
|