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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Apr 26, 2013 8:28:20 GMT
There is one thing I liked about Mgr John Moloney when he was priest in charge of the indult in Dublin (Sacred Heart, Tivoli Rd/St Gabriel's Cabinteely/Ss Michael's & John's, Wood Quay/St Paul's Arran Quay/St Audoen's, High St). He had a strong Marian devotion and he placed Marian apparitions in their historic context.
Eg. Rue de Bac, Paris, 1830 - just before the overthrow of Charles X and instatement of the July Monarchy.
La Salette, 1846 - Famine throughout Europe, not least in Ireland.
Lourdes 1858 - Eve of Louis Napoleon's 2nd Empire
Pontmain 1871 - Just after the Franco-Prussian War
Knock 1879 - height of land war in Ireland (Boycott added to the English language in the same year and same county)
Fatima 1917 - how many people realise Portugal was a belligerent on the allied side in WW1 (they took a particular hit in one of the German offensives that year) and many of those who flocked to the apparitions were worried about their sons on the front?
I probably don't need to elaborate too much on the 1933 apparitions in Belgium's Beauraing and Banneux.
But as Hibernicus said, in these cases, technology also helped spread the message far and wide.
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Post by rogerbuck on Apr 27, 2013 8:50:17 GMT
Yes, Hibernicus was right in what he said and I suspect this Mgr Moloney also had further insight into the profound complex of things that formed and fueled 19th C Ultramontanism/Counter Revolution. Because looking into the Marian Apparitions, it is impossible for me not to see how these profoundly contributed to the enormous revival of the Church in France, the so-called "Devotional Revolution" here, etc. The tears of the Blessed Virgin ... In the language of Otto, there is a numinosity here that I think informs and explicates the reason Catholic traditionalism today is still so irresistibly drawn to the 19th Century. And it is hard to separate the tears of the Blessed Virgin from Ultramontane/Counter-Revolutionary politics. Here for example are the words reported by St Catherine Laboure: “My child, the times are evil; troubles are about to come upon France; the monarchy will be overthrown; and the whole world will be upheaved by misfortunes of every kind … There will be victims in other communities. [Here, according to the recital, the Blessed Virgin shed tears.] There will be victims among the Paris clergy. The Archbishop will die. My child, the cross will be despised and overthrown and men will open our Lord’s side afresh, and the whole world will be in trouble.” There is much, much more I could say about this. For now, I will just say that my own life was deeply changed by living in France, visiting Paray-le-Monial more than 20 times as well as the Rue du Bac, Lourdes, Pointmain and La Salette. Perhaps the last had the profoundest impact on me of all. I don't know how much interest there would be for my saying more here - but for anyone who is interested I have a blog entry that speaks to all of these things, as well as my own experience at La Salette - which haunts me. I guess this particularly blog entry also says a lot of "where I'm coming from" that I haven't yet said at this forum: Blog is called: The Tears of the Blessed Virgin: “The Cross Will be Despised and Overthrown …” And link is here: corjesusacratissimum.org/2012/06/the-tears-of-the-blessed-virgin-the-cross-will-be-despised-and-overthrown/
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Apr 30, 2013 8:00:23 GMT
I don't want to get off the point. But let me put a question: has the traditional movement in Ireland, inclusive of the SSPX or otherwise, been a blazing success?
I would have to answer no. The amount of vocations coming forward have been small, the effect on the life of the Church where they are neglible. We need to examine why and how it can improve.
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Post by rogerbuck on Apr 30, 2013 9:38:52 GMT
I don't want to get off the point. But let me put a question: has the traditional movement in Ireland, inclusive of the SSPX or otherwise, been a blazing success? I would have to answer no. The amount of vocations coming forward have been small, the effect on the life of the Church where they are neglible. We need to examine why and how it can improve. I would love your analysis of this Alaisdir. This is a matter I am very hungry to learn about and I feel you can teach me a lot. Please tell us what you think in this regard!
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Post by shane on Apr 30, 2013 11:52:21 GMT
I think part of the reason may be because no one is really providing a theoretical rationale for attending the old Mass, so a lot of people are oblivious to it. Go back to the 70s and 80s and you had polemicists like Michael Davis (who had flaws of his own, but at least he tried), but there is no-one like him around the scene now. For most Catholics today, there is no reason why they should go out of their way to attend a "Latin Mass" and they do not understand the background to the crisis in the Church.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Apr 30, 2013 12:48:30 GMT
First of all, I am going to disqualify myself from commentary on the SSPX. I am not an SSPX supporter and do not have their interests at heart.
But something can be said. Since the establishment of the SSPX apostolate in Ireland in the early 1980s (even stretching back to 1978), three Irishmen have been ordained to the priesthood within the SSPX. The first two, Frs Leo Boyle and Francis Gallagher relate to the early period when Fr Emerson was working in Ireland on his own. Since then, about a dozen SSPX priests have worked in Ireland in three churches and many more Mass centres and though a number of Irishmen have studied within the SSPX, only Fr David Sherry has been ordained.
The indult kicked off in Ireland in 1985 when Archbishop McNamara of Dublin authorised a First Friday Mass around the corner from the SSPX church. In the 1980s, there were indult Masses in Dublin, Belfast, Derry, Donegal and Mayo, with an SMA missionary priest saying Mass privately in Cork. In the early 1990s, Sligo and Ballina were added, but then the indult went into contraction to the extent that there were only four regular indult Masses at the time that Benedict XVI assumed the papacy: Dublin, Donegal and two venues in Mayo. When Benedict stepped down, this is more like 27 venues. A few dozen priests have worked there.
Only one Irishman has been ordained within the Ecclesia Dei communities (in the FSSP). He studied with the ICRSS for most of his time as a seminarian, but joined the FSSP before ordination to the diaconate and he left the FSSP to join the Dublin Archdiocese subsequently. It is true that a Dublin archdiocesan priest has joined the FSSP, but he was serving in the New York archdiocese and had no connexion with the Latin Mass communities in Ireland. Seven Irishmen to my knowledge have spent time with the FSSP (one is still a student, the others left: five prior to ordination and one afterward; one of those who left prior to ordination was ordained for an Irish diocese); four Irishmen have studied for the ICRSS (three left prior to ordination; one ceased to study for the priesthood but remained in the Institute as a candidate for the oblature; one of those who left joined the FSSP afterwards, but left to join the Dublin Archdiocese later). In all, ten men (seven and four generally make eleven, but one is counted twice) studied for the priesthood in the ED institutes, but no one of them has continued to minister them since ordination.
Some men who attended indult Masses regularly have been ordained in the OF. Two I can think of are Dominicans. Neither of these have any connexion with the EF Mass now. There is a case of a seminarian for the Ossory diocese who is a candidate for the EF exclusively. This man was an SSPX student many years ago and was connected with the EF Mass in Kilkenny. The man is not a native Irishman – as far as I know he’s a South African of Flemish origin.
Traditionalists like to talk about booming vocations in their communities, but there is little in these statistics to suggest that there is anything to boast about. In the case of men who opt for the OF rather than the EF, there must be other reasons at play.
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Post by rogerbuck on Apr 30, 2013 13:50:17 GMT
Some men who attended indult Masses regularly have been ordained in the OF. Two I can think of are Dominicans. Neither of these have any connexion with the EF Mass now. ... Traditionalists like to talk about booming vocations in their communities, but there is little in these statistics to suggest that there is anything to boast about. In the case of men who opt for the OF rather than the EF, there must be other reasons at play. Hmm ... point well taken I think. Personally I think much must do done to make the TLM more accessible. For example, I definitely favour the readings being made available in the vernacular as well. I have been to many Latin Masses where a sole priest seemed very remote at the altar. Servers help to rectify that. But if both priest and servers can really project their voices or if they are amplified a great difference is made ... There are different people with different needs here. Example: My wife Kim (who unfortunately due to a vision problem cannot easily write on computers so cannot easily participate in this forum) needs no such projection/amplification. She has a subtle sensitivity which feels deeply nourished by every Latin Mass no matter how it is done. That same sensitivity makes the NO often unbearable for her. By contrast, I am a clod. I find that servers, projection even amplification really draw me into the Latin Mass. I have no idea how many people are like Kim and how many like myself. But if even 20% of the people are like me, priest plus servers with very clearly audible Latin could make a BIG difference. I would like to beg priests to think of clods like me in case we are 20% ... Of course, if in the overall population (not just TLM lovers!) clods like me are 80-90% it could make a HUGE difference. I feel that the ICRSS understand this well. I also feel they understand our psychological need for beauty. I think the High Mass is very important too, which ICRSS are deeply committed too. I realise that the Low Mass is what has been prevalent before in Ireland before. But I really think High Mass provision could change a lot here in Ireland. Recently, I met a woman who used to lived in Dublin and seemed to swoon at the high Sunday Masses there. She missed them after leaving Dublin. We have a very serious crisis. The Novus Ordo - which I go to btw because I need the Mass every day - is costing the Church a great deal I believe. Ireland needs TLM. I think the High Mass will be critical to restoring it here and for this reason I am really praying the ICRSS apostolate in Ireland ...
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Apr 30, 2013 14:40:04 GMT
I think traditionalists have got rather complacent at their own perceived success both at a polemical and political level; Shane has a point. There was also a fool's paradise during BXVI's pontificate. There doesn't seem to be any great desire to evangelise.
I also think that the trad world is more clerical now and I wonder how they would accomodate someone like Michael Davies these days.
But in the Irish context, I don't believe that pastoral care at EF communities has ever been satisfactory. Members of the congregations come, say their prayers, chat a little and disappear.
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Post by rogerbuck on Apr 30, 2013 15:21:42 GMT
Re: There doesn't seem to be any great desire to evangelise. ... But in the Irish context, I don't believe that pastoral care at EF communities has ever been satisfactory. Members of the congregations come, say their prayers, chat a little and disappear. Something I really, really hope to explore at this board is the whole question of evangelising. Needs a whole thread ... maybe a whole sub forum! On the second point, I hope I am not wearying too much on this point ... But I spent nearly a year in Madrid participating in the ICRSS apostolate Then I was at the Wirral near Merseyside from the beginning of the ICRSS apostolate there. From those combined experiences, I can say that this pastoral care is something ICCRS aspire to. In fact in Madrid and Liverpool I would say they excelled at it. I will go further. Not simply pastoral care, but more: community building. From what you say here Alaisdir I wonder if this is precisely what you sat has been missing. Of course, apostolates can vary from country to country. But in Liverpool we had Canon Meney at first who had built up the apostolates in Milwaukee and elsewhere in Wisconsin. People from Liverpool were going out to Wisconsin and were very deeply impressed (I almost wrote flabbergasted) by the evident extent of community that ICRSS had built up in America. So I have to say whether it is successful or not everywhere I cannot say, however I think I CRSS very must aspires to exactly what you seem to be getting at.
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Post by hibernicus on Apr 30, 2013 17:16:54 GMT
The point about the trad world being more clericalised now is well taken - I remember a book by Micheal W Cuneo called THE SMOKE OF SATAN which is somewhat unsympathetic but nonetheless interesting survey of conservative and trad Catholics about 10-15 years ago. One of the major differences he noted between trads and conservatives was that the trad leadership/spokesmen were much more clericalised, whereas the conservatives tended to be lay-led. (THe fact that he included sedevacantists, who have their own clerical hierarchies outside the Church, may distort this slightly, but it still seemed to be a real distinction.) The other major differences he noted were (1) while conservative groups often had women in leadership positions, trad groups generally did not have this and trad women tended to occupy traditional roles (as nuns and wives/mothers) and to defer to Father (2) conservatives tended to make common cause with conservative Protestants on life issues and similar matters, trads tended to avoid this as leading to indifferentism. [This last may not apply so much in Ireland for historical reasons, as there are not enough conservative Protestants to go round in the republic and in the North the "national issue" has discouraged such alliances.]
Michael Davies' books can be a bit overstated, and I would say part of the difference between trads then and now is that in Davies' heyday trads were looking to restore something which had existed until fairly recently (Davies' major books came out in the late 70s/early 80s, i.e. ten years after the suppression), so that most of their target audience had a degree of memory/familiarity with it. Nowadays you would have to be in your mid-sixties to recall when the EF was in general use, so that to attract people you have to start from scratch to a much greater extent. It doesn't help that many trads respond by demonising the OF and calling for its suppression (CHRISTIAN ORDER does this quite regularly) or insinuate that OF Catholics are somehow not real Catholics (cf THE GREAT FACADE) - this achieves nothing except to encourage sedevacantism and despair.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Apr 30, 2013 18:51:21 GMT
Whatever success the ICRSS enjoy overseas, they have had a base in Ireland since 2009, and they have not been crowned with any great triumph yet.
I don't see much difference in the congregations in Galway and Limerick from anywhere else. In fact the Galway congregation has shrunk dramatically on the ICRSS watch.
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Post by rogerbuck on Apr 30, 2013 19:06:04 GMT
Hibernicus, I've only read part of Cuneo's book, but you've encouraged me to return to it. Such distinctions and their consequences are worth exploring. Re: I don't see much difference in the congregations in Galway and Limerick from anywhere else. In fact the Galway congregation has shrunk dramatically on the ICRSS watch. I hear with sadness that Galway and Limerick do not seem different than TLMs elsewhere in Ireland. I really do believe that what I have said is a genuine aspiration of ICRSS which is working elsewhere - but how it is working out in Ireland is obviously a different matter.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on May 1, 2013 7:37:09 GMT
I don't think that the ICRSS priests in Ireland have made a great effort to understand the country and they only seem to be comfortable with people who are card-carrying traditionalists.
In regard to the rest of the country, it seems that the main selling point for the EF is the fact it is not the OF.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on May 1, 2013 7:59:00 GMT
I think we shouldn't forget that for a long time, traditionalism within the Church was a lay movement. This was carried out principally through Una Voce, which first of all negotiated the 1984 indult and then supported the 1988 Ecclesia Dei Adflicta. One problem was that UV never adjusted to the new arrangement. The pre-1984 system allowed for little other than a committee of influential people in any given country (except England & Wales) backing an international negotiator like Eric de Saventhem (see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_de_Saventhem). De Saventhem was replaced with Michael Davies. Michael's reputation lay mainly on his skill as a polemicist. He had a certain capital based on his support and he did try to build up the UV movement, but Michael wasn't a politician or a strategist. The trouble here was again that UV didn't keep up with developments in the traditional world and groups like the FSSP began to become a factor. Michael's replacement Ralf Siebenbürger had a better idea of what needed to be done and was developing new UV groups, particularly in Central and Eastern Europe. Ralf was perceived not to be much of a negotiator and was kicked out in a particularly ugly coup. His two immediate successors couldn't make first base and the current UV president has coasted on the post-Summorum Pontificum gale. Something UV had absolutely no influence on. Right now, the post-SP fool's paradise is coming to an end and there is no long term strategy. Nothing was developed. The first problem that UV developed came with expelling UV Canada because its president, Jim Scheer, was ordained to the permanent diaconate. (I probably said before Jim Scheer is Andrew Scheer's father: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Scheer ). The 1984 Indult first draft was the work of Rev Mr Scheer and the Canadian association was so active, that New York chapters affiliated to them rather than to the US association. The current UV America is very much a successor organisation of UV Canada. The irony of kicking Scheer out because he was a deacon was lost on supporters of Fra' Freddie Crichton-Stuart who replaced Siebenbürger. Crichton-Stuart was a professed Knight of Malta. As such, he was a vowed religious whose vow of obedience to the Master of the Order of Malta is much stricter than Scheer's commitment to his diocesan bishop in Canada. Crichton-Stuart's committment to the Order made it impossible to continue as President of UV International, but he had no great experience of the traditional world anyway. However, even if the dream of an international lay traditional organisation had been realised, most traditionalists are happy to be led by clergy and Cuneo's observations hold true. Another great missed opportunity was that the success of another lay trad group Notre Dame de Chrétienté was not capitalised. Following the impact of the SSPX pilgrimage in Rome in 2000 (Holy Year), Michael Davies was written to with the suggestion of arranging a Chartres style pilgrimage in Rome (where it would make much more impact than in Paris). Michael could only say it was a good idea. That is how limited the UV federation was.
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Post by rogerbuck on May 1, 2013 11:17:38 GMT
Just a quick response for now: I don't think that the ICRSS priests in Ireland have made a great effort to understand the country and they only seem to be comfortable with people who are card-carrying traditionalists. I am glad you are naming your perceptions Alaisdir. Of course, I cannot judge their accuracy, not really knowing the priests in question. But I find your perceptions valuable. Because, surely, real effort to understand the country will be key to the success or failure of the ICRSS apostolate here. And I am really praying for the success of this apostolate.
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