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Post by hibernicus on Oct 28, 2008 12:33:47 GMT
The big problem I think is lack of trust. Most people are not going to be able to investigate deep theology in their own - they have to take it from people whose witness they accept. Our witness to a great extent has failed beause of the flood of hostile media, the past abuses which have come to light, and the post-Vatican II paralysis and confusion among so many who should spread the Word.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Oct 29, 2008 11:59:14 GMT
This is true, but I will again hold up the work of the FFRs in Moyross in Limerick. It seems if someone attempts to meet the working class half-way, they will get a hearty response. Why can't trads do it? And why can't the CFC, FSC, PBVM, RSM etc learn from the way the FFRs flaunt their habits in a place like Moyross?
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Post by hibernicus on Aug 24, 2011 22:26:26 GMT
I think we ought to restart this thread because it identifies one of our biggest problems (and one we share with the liberal Catholics, I am sorry to say) the tendency to become a middle-class religious subculture with little appeal/outreach to the working class/ the poor. This BTW is exactly the reason some nineteenth-century Evangelicals gave for becoming Catholic - Newman's move as an Anglican from Evangelicalism to a more High Church position (as an Anglican) was related to his realisation through parish work that evangelical bibliocentrism and introspection tended to develop a middle and upper-class clientele but was not well suited to those who had little education and had to work hard and could not afford the time and effort to debate theology. Here is an interesting comment by the American social commentator Walter Russell Mead (an Episcopalian) on recent surveys which have shown that in the US there is an increasing tendency for poorer and less educated people to be more atheistic than those who are better off and better educated, and that this has harmful effects for their well-being. This is an interesting comment on the New Atheist claim that theirs is the voice of reason and education, but it does raise the question of how these poor people got into this situation, and how they can be reached and helped. blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2011/08/21/inequality-grows-as-poor-ignorant-atheists-swamp-us/
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2011 23:54:03 GMT
I am working class and from speaking to members of my family/friends who don't attend...
The Church does not have any right to tell people what to do given what they've done.
Why is the bishop not selling his palace for the poor, all churches should be seized (pointing out the disturbing political ramifications of this is pointless, that it was our ancestor's money who paid for them again pointless, a lot of anger against the riches of the Church, little known about the charity of the Church).
Obsession with sexuality, celibate priests becoming paedophiles, women not being made priests. So lack of theological training there.
They don't know any priests. Seriously, none come visit. Where are the nuns? I know so many people in hospitals who desperately need comfort, it's a work of mercy. I don't know why older retired nuns are not hitting the wards and helping where staff have no time. Likewise the elderly at home. I know someone in the Legion of Mary who does this but she isn't a nun, just has a lot of faith.
I know some feel they'll be condemned for having children out of wedlock, family members who committed suicide, earning extra money on the side while collecting social welfare. Also priests won't understand marital problems.
There is a general feeling of reverence for the Sacred Heart, Our Lady etc but not the Church itself, it's seen as nothing to do with them. Now obviously if they were well catechised then they'd realise the importance of Mass but they're not. So make it relevant, I went to Sisters of Charity schools and knew nuns there who were wonderful, our teachers were practicing Catholic or at least didn't publicly dissent. Haily Marys pre class, Angelus, benediction, the full mcoy. Is that still happening?? I knew good nuns and priests and good Catholic witnesses, most working class people don't for they're not reading Catholic media etc, just what they're fed on tv3.
They know of Sr. Stan and Fr. McVerry, sin é. I'm sure if they became involved like the Franciscans in Moyross but in inner city Dublin, people, nosey as we are would come see what it was about. In addition, I'd say an EF Mass would go down a storm. Have you seen the packed Mass for that awful Gospel crowd in Gardiner Street? People do yoga classes in the community centre, believe in karma, anything other than boring Sunday Mass, throw in the bells and smells and there would be interest. But explain WHY first off, why ye are doing what ye are doing! It goes back to teaching the Faith.
Finally, discussing it with a family member recently who objected to Mass because of the paedos/anti women/Nazi pope yada yada. I said that maybe she should add to her list that she just couldn't be bothered getting up of a Sunday morning. She laughed and acquiesed. People's gods are different now, tv, money, work. They don't know Jesus so don't find him relevant to their lives. They just can't be bothered. Theological arguments don't work with working class, show them faith at work like Fr. Groeschel's men and they may listen.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2011 0:04:37 GMT
One more thing.. there was a lot of dependence on the Church for food, education, clothing etc among the poor, the working poor. That is more or less gone with increasing social welfare payments. However I know a fair few people on the dole years who don't attend Mass but feel entitled to Church handouts because "they're Christians so are supposed to help us". A nasty sense of entitlement without loyalty.
You have to make a distinction between working class and social welfare class too I feel, they are different. That attitude is more among long term dole collectors. I want to clarify further the difference between those who have lost confidence after years of unemployment but contribute to society with rearing families as best they can and are involved in society (coaching children's football team, organising tea parties for the elderly) who empathise with the Church mission although are not directly involved. They have a spirit of poverty and understanding and would be ripe for conversion.
Contrast these against those who manage to holiday, drive cars and live well enough on social welfare and have no interest in contributing to their communities or the country, a spirit of avarice. I'd class the former among the working poor really. There's a whole lot to pick apart in that latter attitude, I know Peter Hitchens would have a field day. If you feel the world owes you a living then you don't feel you have depend on anyone, never mind God, for it'll all come to you anyway, you don't have to go to Mass. It's faith in Providence gone awry. Again, not in the working poor per se, but more those on the dole. This is just my own experience, I can't speak for all.
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Post by hibernicus on Aug 27, 2011 10:28:35 GMT
I will try to comment on Banaltra's posts when I find time and ideas. In the meantime, here is a link to an interesting post by Leon Podles on the implication on the ongoing decline of female orders of apostolic life. [Some of his points BTW might apply to male orders of the same type, such as the Christian Brothers and De La Salle Brothers. These recruited from working-class/peasant men who might not have had access to the sort of education needed to become a priest or join one of the "classy" orders but who nonetheless wished to enter religious life. I suspect the opening up of wider economic opportunities combined with the crisis in the Church had the same effect on these orders as the trends Podles discusses had on the nuns - it wasn't just a female thing. One other point that Podles doesn't make and which is relevant to Banaltra is that religious are/were supposed to bear witness to the Church and to show it was possible and worthwhile to make sacrifices for Her. (The fact that some of them turn out to have borne witness of a very different kind is an everlasting shame but it shoud not detract from the faithful witnesses.) Their disappearance consequently makes the church more remote from people's lives and means that fewer hear the call let alone answer it. I reproduce Podles' last paragraph on the implications of the demise of the teaching orders on popular religious literacy among Catholics and its inevitable result. (We are not talking about religious KNOWLEDGE but about something more basic like LITERACY - the sense of what it is all about and that it has an inner rationale. Transmit that and the catechumen will have the sense, desire and motivation to remedy gaps in knowledge - without it the Faith just seen as a heap of dry bones to be discarded. www.podles.org/dialogue/ave-atque-vale-sisters-489.htm#commentsEXTRACT Catholic health care can be run economically with employees, but Catholic educations is vanishing. No alternative method of educating the laity in the rudiments of the faith has been put in place, and we are returning to the middle ages in the level of religious literacy.. In the book on Catalonia I previously mentioned, the zealous clergy of the Counter Reformation were astonished to find the level of ignorance of basic doctrine among the population – and I am afraid we are returning to that. What that curious word Trinity means, what or who the Holy Spirit is, who wrote the four gospels, will all be mysteries to most Catholics – who are confronting biblically literate Protestants. Sounds familiar? – 16th C redux. END
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Post by annie on Aug 31, 2011 9:45:20 GMT
Patrician meetings as organised by the Legion of Mary are ideal for teasing out matters of faith and doctrine, by the laity, for the laity with an attendent priest to be called upon in a minimal capacity. Its all laid out in the handbook.
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 1, 2011 10:53:13 GMT
The thread is specifically about the working class, not about the laity generally. I know the Legion still does evangelising work door-to-door; it would be interesting to know what sort of reception they get and what responses they receive.
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Post by annie on Sept 1, 2011 14:17:13 GMT
The thread is specifically about the working class, not about the laity generally. I know the Legion still does evangelising work door-to-door; it would be interesting to know what sort of reception they get and what responses they receive. I meant to link my reply to your previous post about the lack of knowledge about the church among the people. The Patrician meeting was designed to do that and be open to people of all faiths and none. There used be a meeting in Magnificat House in North Great Georges Street in the Pro Cathedral parish which was very well attended. People need to be invited so this is where the door to door as well as advertising in general media comes in. And to get back on tread, the subject for discussion for the Patricians meeting one night could be on the TLM. I meant to link my reply to your previous post about the lack of knowledge about the church among the people. The Patrician meeting was designed to do that and be open to people of all faiths and none. There used be a meeting in Magnificat House in North Great Georges Street in the Pro Cathedral parish which was very well attended. People need to be invited so this is where the door to door as well as advertising in general media comes in. And to get back on tread, the subject for discussion for the Patricians meeting one night could be on the TLM.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2011 17:42:22 GMT
In either the Irish Catholic or the Catholic Voice last week there was an article about a parish team in west Belfast where they literally went out, two by two, as Jesus commanded. They aimed for 100 doors, and knocked on them all to speak to people and invite them back to Mass. They were welcomed by all but one grump and their effort was a surprise and seemed to be appreciated. Many people agreed that they would think about coming back to Mass and it gave not only the parish team and priests a boost but the people they met were mostly glad to see them. I live in Dublin's northside, and west Belfast is a lot friendlier I grant you. Of course the proof is in the pudding. However we've been discussing orders getting to work within communities etc and this struck me as something doable within our own communities. I don't attend the TLM but perhaps its something that those of you who do could manage.
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 7, 2012 20:43:40 GMT
Here is a interesting article suggesting the Wesleys, founders of Methodism, and their style of popular evangelisation as a model for Catholic re-evangelisation. (This concept is not new, BTW - Cardinal Manning used to say he believed the Wesleys were raised up by God to save Christianity in C18 England.) In fact, there are parallels between the work of the Wesleys and of St Paul of the Cross (founder of the Passionists) and St Alphonsus Liguori (founder of the Redemptorists), both of whom saw as their primary concern the evangelisation of nominally Catholic populations neglected by the clergy (who tended to cluster where the pay was best). What would happen if an attempt was made to revive old-style Redemptorist or Passionist-style religious life? Remember Newman was received into the Church by a Passionist, partly because he had said he would believe the Catholic Church was the Church of the Apostles if it sent apostles into the manufacturing towns to preach the Word. Would it turn into a cult? Would it even be tolerated - would it be suppressed as asking too much of the members? What would be the result of an open and direct appeal to the Four Last Things and to the Gospel?) www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2012/09/new-evangelization-and-the-wesley-brothers
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Oct 8, 2013 8:28:55 GMT
I hear that TLM takes place at 7.30 pm on First Fridays in St John Vianney Church, Artane. The celebrant is Very Rev Robert Mann SCJ, who is the parish priest there.
This is an old working class district on Dublin's northside.
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Post by hibernicus on Nov 1, 2013 22:29:30 GMT
The piece reproduced below seems pretty relevant to the thread. I remember reading some early twentieth-century books by an Irish ex-Catholic who had converted to Protestantism and had a visceral hatred for his former religion, and one thing that struck me was that much of his animus against Catholicism was a sense that Catholic inner-city churches were full of poor, ragged, dirt, smelly people whereas Anglican and PResbyterian churches drew nice middle-class respectable congregations. (Anglicanism and Presbyterianism tended to lose the working-classes and become predominantly middle-class in urban areas in the late C19; the poorer people either drifted away altogether or went to independent gospel halls and evangelical churches with working-class congregations.) I think one unacknowledged driving force behind liberal Catholicism is a sense that traditional devotionalism is too vulgar, emotive, and unrestrained (BTW many of these devotions were developed precisely to appeal to the unchurched poor). Another which sometimes comes to mind is priests' dislike of having to observe ascetic discipline and its spiritual demands. www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2013/10/17/we-do-not-want-a-middle-class-church/EXTRACT I have just been at a conference where a distinguished speaker, outlining the state of the Catholic Church in this country today, brought up the phenomenon of embourgeoisement. This term might ring a few bells with some. In the Catholic context it refers to the way so many of our parishes have been taken over by middle-class elites, and are no longer places where working class people can feel at home. Historically speaking, British Catholicism, especially in England, has been made up of a few, a very few, descendants of recusant families, some of whom may be upper class, and a rank and file that is sprung from the working class, chiefly the descendants of Irish immigrants, with the middle class significantly under-represented. This may have been true back in the 1950s, but nowadays, despite the old fashioned snobbery of the few, Catholics are no longer seen as being of a lower social status than Anglicans. But, as Catholics have become more middle class, have we lost something? And if we have lost something, can we recover it? My reflections on this matter are, I suppose, deeply personal, and I have no special expertise in the sociology of religion. But it seems to me that a middle-class Church is not the sort of Church we should want, in that it would exclude from itself a large swathe of the population. Moreover, that large swathe has historically been at home in Catholicism, and their exclusion now would represent an injustice. But it goes further than this: middle class values do not sit well with any authentic type of Catholicism. Middle class values smack too heavily of individualism and Pelagianism, the idea that we get to heaven through our own efforts. While it may be true that we rise into the middle classes by hard work, dedication and effort, these things will not help us to arrive at salvation. In fact, quite the opposite. Salvation comes from grace, and grace is given to those who admit their need of it in humility before God. Has the “middle-classing” of the Church come about from purely sociological reasons? Is it because the immigrants of old are now full absorbed into the fabric of society? This may well be so, but the middle-classing of the Church may be theological as well. Do we preach the values of individualism, self-reliance, and social betterment? Or do we admit to ourselves that life is a slow moving train crash, and that we are all sinners, and that things rarely go to plan? Getting on sounds like a good thing, but it is how we get on, and towards what we strive that needs to be examined. Quite a lot of social justice concerns seem straight from the pages of The Guardian; but many of the people who come to church, or would come to church, may in fact be the sort of people who read the Daily Mirror. There is one caveat: a church that sets itself against middle class values may well find itself alienating its most fervent members; and it may open itself up to the idea that it is against social progress. After all, if immigrants have become more prosperous, that is a good thing. In the process they may well expect something different of their church. But – and it is a but that troubles me – we need to keep the best of our traditions, and we need to be open to all, to the many, not just the few. END
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Nov 4, 2013 12:10:55 GMT
I suppose this debate is not supposed to be anti-middle class. There is also a fall off of practice in the middle class which needs to be addressed. Secularisation is pandemic, for a myriad of reasons.
But the poor just seem to have been abandoned. I think a lot of the comment here and elsewhere is that they are not adverse to religion, no matter how ill used they were at times (eg in recycling paedophile priests through working class parishes). It's also about the good work a great number of priests, religious and laity have done over the years. A lot of the things which drew the working classes - confraternities, sodalities, devotions - were ruthlessly suppressed. The religious in mufti don't draw anyone and there are virtually no religious left in healthcare and education - most of those who are aren't visible as religious.
This is not about the TLM - it is about how a segment of society have just been dropped. If Pope Francis does nothing else, I hope he will remind us of the poorer in our society and the duty of all Christians towards them.
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Post by hibernicus on Nov 4, 2013 21:10:07 GMT
I'm not being anti-middle class; I'm middle-class myself. The question is whether evangelisation of the working-class is being hindered because the potential evangelisers have unthinkingly absorbed middle-class cultural biases which lead them to dismiss certain approaches out of hand, which applies to both trads and liberals (and there are real problems with some forms of working-class religion as well, on e obvious example being the sort of superstition that leads gangsters to carry around religious objects as if they were magic charms, without altering their own lifestyle - and we can all think of lots of parallels to the story at the link below in Irish history blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100244222/the-murder-of-bijan-ebrahimi-for-being-different-exposes-the-dark-side-of-working-class-britain/.) In the trad/conservative case, the neglect was due to snobbery and condescension. In the liberal case the Rahnerian"anonymous Christian" as a formula for preaching universal salvation and assuming everyone's OK as tey are has done a lot of harm.
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