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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on May 19, 2008 12:47:51 GMT
This is an area that I would like to address, and if necessary be corrected upon.
In Ireland, it is a fair assumption to say that most (not all, by any means) of the congregations at traditional Masses are emphatically middle class, with a scattering of people both higher and lower than that.
Yet there is a falling off in religious attendance in working class and socially welfare dependent areas and there are many priests highly reluctant to take on ministeries in these areas.
In 19th Century Europe and North America, many very good priests took on apostolates in run down areas and achieved a degree of success. Why is the message of the trad movement in the 21st century to fly into the countryside? It is a challenge to the traditional movement to win back these people and to bring them the riches of the faith - something which requires heavy social work and a renewed educational apostolate (where are the sons of Ignatius Rice and daughters of Nano Nagle for this potential renewal when they are needed) in no-go areas? Why should a neo-con group like the Franciscans of the Renewal be given a free run?
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Post by Guest on May 19, 2008 13:59:51 GMT
Alaisdir Do you represent any group? You seem to have a lot of knowledge regarding Ireland. Could others assist you? It is very important to bring back the people to the riches of the Faith. You could draw up some ideas and perhaps the people on the forum could assist.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on May 19, 2008 19:06:53 GMT
I might make some statement if you take the trouble to register and log in.
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Post by Askel McThurkill on May 28, 2008 13:59:12 GMT
This is an area which, as someone with origins in the Dublin working class, I am very interested in.
I note that in some Dublin working class parishes, attendance is as low as 2 to 5%. It wasn't always that way. Speculation has led me to the conclusion that the policy of appointing 'problem' priests to socially deprived parishes as a sanction created this. In the language of the 'nortsoider', they sent all the loopers to the likes of Ballymun and Darndale. You should also ask questions about the selection proceedures in places like Clonliffe - if Dublin clergy are unwilling to serve in these areas, why do they volunteer for a place like Dublin which has them in abundance? Black marks to the head honchos in Holy Cross for this.
Joking aside, I read a profile of the Scottish composer, James MacMillan who used to be a socialist but now is a big B16 fan. I hear he writes a responsorial psalm to be sung in one of Glasgow's poorest parish every Sunday and that the Glasgow social welfare dependees are lapping it up.
Now, if we look at Dublin, I would contradict Alaisdir on one point - the St Kevin's gig isn't middle class. It's more like upper class. Yeah, there are a couple of working class heads here and there, but not a lot and even less than in the days of St Paul's in Arran Quay where y'd hear a fair few Dub accents outside the Church. this is the point to examine a couple of consciences.
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Post by guillaume on May 28, 2008 14:08:06 GMT
Sorry again. I do not compare France with Ireland. But most of the traditionalists, In France, belong to the upper class, even the Noble class, and so, should i say, unfortunately. There is not really "noble" class in Ireland. But it is truth, maybe because of the location, access to TLM seems to be reserved to a certain class of the population, which is most unfortunate.
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Post by Askel McThurkill on Jun 3, 2008 13:38:08 GMT
I know what you mean Guillaume and you have given another reason why the SSPX (also known as pixies) don't work in Ireland.
Yes, the trad movement there is very upper class oriented and politically it is often monarchist. That doesn't work here. Two of the three politicians mentioned in the 'public figures' board would have called themselves socialist and the other was very much a republican. The right wingery of American trads doesn't work well in this country either, even if the bulk of congregations will tend to be right of centre in their voting habits - ideological conservatism is not a big feature of Irish society, of which Irish Catholic Society is an important subset. That's why I am a bit nervous of the direction of the discussion on the Lisbon Treaty - that it has been one-sided so far (that's changing now though).
Anyway, it illustrates why France and Ireland are not good comparisons. But you refer to the nobility in France. In Ireland, we have no Catholic nobility to speak of - the clergy took on that role in Penal Times. Grasp this, and you will know why the laity in Ireland did not go on a limb against the clergy in regard to the liturgy - priests and bishops are in charge, not the laity.
But I see another creeping matter. A lot of people compare Ireland to England and analogise between the two. That doesn't work either.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Jun 24, 2008 11:11:28 GMT
Comparisons between England and Ireland don't work at all.
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Post by Askel McThurkill on Jun 24, 2008 14:21:42 GMT
Certainly not re: the Catholic Church.
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Post by santiago on Jun 26, 2008 0:29:35 GMT
No. The Catholic Church is, in my experience, more vibrant and stronger....in places...in England than in Ireland at the moment. Being a Catholic in England is still seen as having a touch of the exotic about it, being a little bit subversive :-) It's the underdog thing. It's easy to knock the Catholic Chuch that was, until recently, on a pedestal in Ireland but in England the Church has been fighting since the Protestant Revolt on the 16th century.
The Trad movement in the UK is also, with exceptions obviously, an upper and middle class thing. In London and Oxford in particular it can be spectacularly upper class. The Trad movement in the UK also has a small streak of high camp (to an almost comic level) about it.....something it shares with the High Anglicans.
Neither of these traits help it to appeal to working class and the bulk of Johnny and Mary Catholics. Although, this is changing as SP works it's magic.
Off-topic (kinda): Is it just me or has the Catholic Church in Ireland basically ignored Summorum Pontificum...apart from the Dublin Chaplaincy and a few extra Masses it seems most priests, all Bishops and Catholic media are hoping it'll just go away!
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Post by Askel McThurkill on Jun 26, 2008 9:58:31 GMT
Thanks to Santiago for his observations - I have some experience of Church life in both England and Scotland, in both ordinary and extraordinary forms and can more or less confirm what he is saying - though Scotland can be more similar to Ireland than England and Summorum Pontificum has made an impact there.
I can in one way address two items here. The feted Dublin Chaplaincy which does provide the Mass every day and virtually guarrantees the sacraments on one hand apes the London and Oxford situations as an appeal to the upper class (or what passes for it in Dublin) and the strong Dublin accents (loike moine) which were very evident in Ss Michael's & John's, St Paul's and St Audoen's are less evident in St Kevin's. The Lassus Scholars (Squallers?) bring in their own following who don't return on Sundays the Squallers aren't on. And for the first time in Ireland, the 'high camp' element are beginning to be evident. (Santiago: I take it you are familiar with the expressions 'As camp as a row of tents'; and if someone is particularly bad 'throw in a couple of caravans and you've got it right' - well, there are a couple of gentlemen in the Dublin congregation of whom this might be fairly said, but I digress...).
I suppose ironically, the politicians I see mentioned at TLM in Dublin and Limerick are distinctly left of centre, which is not something you'd say about Pat Buchannan in the US or Philippe Devillier in France.
Anyway, Dublin is a city with an huge working class and social welfare dependent population. Up until recently, these were invariably practicing Catholics. They no longer are, with the Archbishop from 'Bally-er-fermot' lamenting a 2-5% Mass attendance in their districts (read the interview on the 'Diarmuid Martin' thread). The Dublin Chaplaincy does not cater to these people. There is no question of Mass being anywhere other than St Kevin's from the point of view of the clergy there. The Mass in Newtownmountkennedy, Co Wicklow (in the archdiocese) takes place in spite of the chaplaincy, not because of it. Requests to have Mass in other areas of the Archdiocese have so far come to nothing. If Summorum Pontificum is about having Mass in many parishes, even in some parishes (let alone all, as attributed to Cardinal Castrllion Hoyos recently), then the Dublin Chaplaincy is not the answer.
But if you do look at the diocesan analyses and some of the other parts of the picture, particularly the info supplied by 'alaisdir', who is heavily biased in favour of the LMSI - there seems to be a lot more parish based initiatives in rural Ireland and in places like Cork and Belfast, not to mention particular diocesan groups making an appearance in places like Cloyne (as Molagga mentions). There is another reason why you can't compare Ireland (and Scotland) with England & Wales - we didn't have the Agatha Christie indult here. Or with France - the Ultramontane nature of the Irish Church made Pope Paul VI's predilections seem on the level of the Ten Commandments or something, even in dealing with things which the Pope never commented on. Or like the US - we don't have a vast population with huge resources spread over a vast territory. Most importantly, lay initiative has never been a feature of the Irish Church and Summorum Pontificum calls for lay initiative.
To return to the thread - it might be lay initiative to bring the TLM to the working class through a trad body modelled on something like the Society of St Vincent de Paul. Come back Blessed Frederic Ozanman.
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Post by Michael O'Donovan on Jun 26, 2008 18:04:02 GMT
One cannot help wondering (uncharitably no doubt) whether the former Dublin Indult Mass and now the Chaplaincy had the secondary (or indeed primary) purpose of diluting the SSPX congregation at St John's.
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Post by santiago on Jun 26, 2008 23:26:08 GMT
Askel - I agree with you that the Scottish Church is much, much closer to the Irish Church in character. I would not wish to over-play the camp qualities of some followers of the Old Rite. Obviously, all are welcome at the Lord's table and they can be quite colourful characters with, I'm sure, a love of the liturgy. It is just a remarkable point that is much more noticeable in (some) Tradional circles.
I have every confidence that 75% of middle of the road Catholics would, having experienced a well organised and celebrated Mass in the EF (High, Sung or even Low) would cheerfully agree to working it into their parish rota of masses - once every Sunday or maybe just once a month. Would this be such a bad thing? What are the bishops afraid of?
From my own experience I can say that exposure to the EF and the OF in latin has done wonders for my understanding of the Mass (in both forms) and awe at what goes on at the altar!
And I'm about 10 years away from being working class (i.e. I'm from a working class family - I like to think I still am working class.....I don't know when you stop being).
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Jul 2, 2008 10:56:59 GMT
One cannot help wondering (uncharitably no doubt) whether the former Dublin Indult Mass and now the Chaplaincy had the secondary (or indeed primary) purpose of diluting the SSPX congregation at St John's. There's a lot in that and I don't think is uncharitable. However, I don't think the clergy running the Dublin Mass ever tried to really compete with the SSPX, but they only offered an alternative Mass. I don't think the Chaplaincy, for all its publicity, is any different.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Jul 2, 2008 11:03:41 GMT
Askel - I agree with you that the Scottish Church is much, much closer to the Irish Church in character. I would not wish to over-play the camp qualities of some followers of the Old Rite. Obviously, all are welcome at the Lord's table and they can be quite colourful characters with, I'm sure, a love of the liturgy. It is just a remarkable point that is much more noticeable in (some) Tradional circles. I think the problem we see here is reminscent to a quote from Evelyn Waugh's Brideshead Revisited. When Charles Ryder goes up to Oxford he is given a lot of unsolicited advice from his cousin Jasper. One of the more memorable lines (in both book and TV series) is this: 'Oh, and avoid Anglo-Catholics. They're all sodomites with unpleasant accents'.A lot of trad watchers are concerned that the same thing could happen in the trad Catholic world and I have heard a number of references to homosexuals attaching themselves to the EF in England and in Australia. Contrary to what many trads say, I don't believe the bishops are always the problem. Well, that's not a question I can answer.
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Post by guillaume on Jul 3, 2008 8:53:05 GMT
One cannot help wondering (uncharitably no doubt) whether the former Dublin Indult Mass and now the Chaplaincy had the secondary (or indeed primary) purpose of diluting the SSPX congregation at St John's. There's a lot in that and I don't think is uncharitable. However, I don't think the clergy running the Dublin Mass ever tried to really compete with the SSPX, but they only offered an alternative Mass. I don't think the Chaplaincy, for all its publicity, is any different. This is the reason the result of the Ultimatum will be essential and crucial. If SPPX, via Bishop Fellay and Vatican, via Cardinal C de Hoyos, at least, find a way to discuss and go further toward the end the excommunications, which i hope indeed, it will be a great benefit for the SPPX. People, who might have left the Fraternity, because of her troubled relationships with Rome, will be more trusty toward the SPPX. They might go back to their mass in Saint John's or Athlone or Cork. And the SPPX, in Ireland, once a bit down at the moment, will revive. I repeat this ultimatum is essential and crucial.
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