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Post by hibernicus on May 6, 2016 21:15:04 GMT
The tragic farce of Palmar de Troya continues. "Pope" Gregory XVIII has announced that he no longer believes in Palmar and has gone off with a woman. Before departing, however, he left everything in order - including nominating a successor (as Palmarian Popes are supposed to do; no nonsense about conclaves - which might have unpredictable results - for THEM). Thus they now have a "Pope" nominated by someone who has announced his disbelief in the whole enterprise. The way in which Palmar comes across as a demonic parody of the real Church never ceases to amaze. dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2016/04/27/the-pope-of-palmar-denies-having-stolen-the-popemobile-its-mine-and-is-in-my-name/
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Post by hibernicus on May 29, 2016 19:15:06 GMT
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Post by hibernicus on Jun 3, 2016 19:01:01 GMT
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Post by Young Ireland on Jul 18, 2016 21:22:40 GMT
An Irishman with schizophrenia went back to the Palmarians after over 20 years away and died in Spain days later on Sunday of a heart attack. More worryingly, he is going to be buried tomorrow without the opportunity for an autopsy and is going to be "canonised"(!) either on the day or shortly afterwards. What's more, the Irish Consulate was not informed of the death in spite of the man being an Irish citizen. I have a very bad feeling about this and while I don't believe the Palmarians actually killed him, I think it is time that the Irish authorities stepped in and banned the Palmarians from operating here, lest more damage be done to families. This might seem harsh and I do realise that this would open a Pandora's box and would set a precedent for religious persecution, but there has to be a distinction between religion and profiteering masquerading as religion. Dialogue Ireland has the relevant epsiode of Liveline here: dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2016/07/18/terry-tells-joe-that-her-brother-died-last-night-in-palmar-inside-the-compound/In other news, the Palmarians in Ireland have relocated to Lusk and worryingly, seem to have a relative young congregation, with several children and young people.
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Post by hibernicus on Jul 19, 2016 20:14:19 GMT
According to the first of these stories, it appears that the dead man suffered from schizophrenia and was thrown out of the Palmarian "Carmelite" order 22 years ago because he had a breakdown and the Palmarians didn't want to be responsible for his upkeep. (What Christian charity!) His siblings think his breakdown was linked to his Palmarianism, and I can see how someone with obesessive-compulsive tendencies might be unhinged by Palmarian apocalypticism and the elaborate behaviour codes they enforce. (According to the second article, the mother is a longstanding Palmarian.) It also seems he was invited to rejoin the "order" with the promise that he would be made a "cardinal" (which I suspect reflects recruitment difficulties after the purges and defection of Sergio alias Gregory XVIII). Great, so now they are recruiting schizophrenics to high office in their church by means of simoniacal promises. Really the whole thing comes across more and more clearly as a demonic deception, and I don't say that lightly. www.independent.ie/incoming/he-never-should-have-gone-sisters-heartbreak-as-irish-man-allegedly-dies-at-controversial-palmarian-church-in-spain-34894122.htmlwww.independent.ie/incoming/he-never-should-have-gone-sisters-heartbreak-as-irish-man-allegedly-dies-at-controversial-palmarian-church-in-spain-34894122.htmlwww.independent.ie/irish-news/he-was-a-broken-man-grieving-brother-describes-torment-after-alleged-death-of-irish-man-at-controversial-palmarian-church-34896439.htmlThat said, I don't think banning the Palmarians would be a good idea for a number of reasons, including the following: (1) It would reinforce their apocalyptic and isolationist mentality and play into the hands of the Palmarian leadership. (2) As you say, it would set a bad precedent and could be expanded quite rapidly (for example, I can't think of any reason for banning the Palmarians that would not equally support banning the Scientologists, though I suspect the latter have enough clout to make this less likely). (3) How would it be enforced? If their foreign priests are refused entry (and is this possible for EU nationals?), they could send some of their Irish priests here. If they were refused corporate personality they could worship on members' private property and have individuals hold assets in their own names. There are cheap flights to Spain so communication with Palmar would be almost impossible to prevent. What else - forbid meetings in private houses? Ban Palmarian literature? I would go so far as to suggest social services keep a close eye on Palmarian child-rearing practices some of which sound abusive, but even that is worrying as a possible infringement on religious liberty. I also think the Spanish authorities, who are the only ones who can deal with the head of the serpent, should investigate their finances. Any further and we are really into persecution territory. I had heard they have a new church in Lusk (which in one sense was even a relief as it suggests they are not planning a Jonestown hegira to Palmar) but I am surprised and worried that they have young families. I thought their antics would have left them confined to a dwindling pool of ageing original recruits and their descendants. Pray for everyone caught up in this mess - it's the only thing we can do.
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Post by Young Ireland on Jul 19, 2016 20:39:14 GMT
According to the first of these stories, it appears that the dead man suffered from schizophrenia and was thrown out of the Palmarian "Carmelite" order 22 years ago because he had a breakdown and the Palmarians didn't want to be responsible for his upkeep. (What Christian charity!) His siblings think his breakdown was linked to his Palmarianism, and I can see how someone with obesessive-compulsive tendencies might be unhinged by Palmarian apocalypticism and the elaborate behaviour codes they enforce. (According to the second article, the mother is a longstanding Palmarian.) It also seems he was invited to rejoin the "order" with the promise that he would be made a "cardinal" (which I suspect reflects recruitment difficulties after the purges and defection of Sergio alias Gregory XVIII). Great, so now they are recruiting schizophrenics to high office in their church by means of simoniacal promises. Really the whole thing comes across more and more clearly as a demonic deception, and I don't say that lightly. www.independent.ie/incoming/he-never-should-have-gone-sisters-heartbreak-as-irish-man-allegedly-dies-at-controversial-palmarian-church-in-spain-34894122.htmlwww.independent.ie/incoming/he-never-should-have-gone-sisters-heartbreak-as-irish-man-allegedly-dies-at-controversial-palmarian-church-in-spain-34894122.htmlwww.independent.ie/irish-news/he-was-a-broken-man-grieving-brother-describes-torment-after-alleged-death-of-irish-man-at-controversial-palmarian-church-34896439.htmlThat said, I don't think banning the Palmarians would be a good idea for a number of reasons, including the following: (1) It would reinforce their apocalyptic and isolationist mentality and play into the hands of the Palmarian leadership. (2) As you say, it would set a bad precedent and could be expanded quite rapidly (for example, I can't think of any reason for banning the Palmarians that would not equally support banning the Scientologists, though I suspect the latter have enough clout to make this less likely). (3) How would it be enforced? If their foreign priests are refused entry (and is this possible for EU nationals?), they could send some of their Irish priests here. If they were refused corporate personality they could worship on members' private property and have individuals hold assets in their own names. There are cheap flights to Spain so communication with Palmar would be almost impossible to prevent. What else - forbid meetings in private houses? Ban Palmarian literature? I would go so far as to suggest social services keep a close eye on Palmarian child-rearing practices some of which sound abusive, but even that is worrying as a possible infringement on religious liberty. I also think the Spanish authorities, who are the only ones who can deal with the head of the serpent, should investigate their finances. Any further and we are really into persecution territory. I had heard they have a new church in Lusk (which in one sense was even a relief as it suggests they are not planning a Jonestown hegira to Palmar) but I am surprised and worried that they have young families. I thought their antics would have left them confined to a dwindling pool of ageing original recruits and their descendants. Pray for everyone caught up in this mess - it's the only thing we can do. Hibernicus, I accept that banning them might seem a bit harsh, but given that there are more Palmarians of Irish origin than any other country (even Spain), Ireland should play a leading role in protecting its people from it. I also accept that a ban would be largely unenforcable, and I would envisage the extent of it being the Palmarians' assets in Ireland being frozen and the group being prohibited from opening churches or proselytising here (again as a group, rather than as individuals). As you say, this would not extend to private homes nor would I support anyone actually being arrested simply for being Palmarian. As it happens, I would not be sad to see Scientology banned in a similar manner as well, as it is perhaps even more brazenly profiteering, though as no one has died on their account, I would be slow to push for it. I also agree that the Spanish authorities ought to do more, but Ireland too has a responsibility to protect its citizens. When a man dies in their care and there is an attempt to bury him in suspicious circumstances with no explanation given to the family, a red line has been crossed and there needs to be consequences otherwise it will keep happening again (Remember that Palmarianism contributed to the death of Bridget Crosby last year). To finish, there is a fine balancing act between religious freedom (of which I am firmly in favour) and dealing with confidence tricks and the like.
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Post by Young Ireland on Jul 19, 2016 20:48:46 GMT
According to the first of these stories, it appears that the dead man suffered from schizophrenia and was thrown out of the Palmarian "Carmelite" order 22 years ago because he had a breakdown and the Palmarians didn't want to be responsible for his upkeep. (What Christian charity!) His siblings think his breakdown was linked to his Palmarianism, and I can see how someone with obesessive-compulsive tendencies might be unhinged by Palmarian apocalypticism and the elaborate behaviour codes they enforce. (According to the second article, the mother is a longstanding Palmarian.) It also seems he was invited to rejoin the "order" with the promise that he would be made a "cardinal" (which I suspect reflects recruitment difficulties after the purges and defection of Sergio alias Gregory XVIII). Great, so now they are recruiting schizophrenics to high office in their church by means of simoniacal promises. Really the whole thing comes across more and more clearly as a demonic deception, and I don't say that lightly. www.independent.ie/incoming/he-never-should-have-gone-sisters-heartbreak-as-irish-man-allegedly-dies-at-controversial-palmarian-church-in-spain-34894122.htmlwww.independent.ie/incoming/he-never-should-have-gone-sisters-heartbreak-as-irish-man-allegedly-dies-at-controversial-palmarian-church-in-spain-34894122.htmlwww.independent.ie/irish-news/he-was-a-broken-man-grieving-brother-describes-torment-after-alleged-death-of-irish-man-at-controversial-palmarian-church-34896439.htmlThat said, I don't think banning the Palmarians would be a good idea for a number of reasons, including the following: (1) It would reinforce their apocalyptic and isolationist mentality and play into the hands of the Palmarian leadership. (2) As you say, it would set a bad precedent and could be expanded quite rapidly (for example, I can't think of any reason for banning the Palmarians that would not equally support banning the Scientologists, though I suspect the latter have enough clout to make this less likely). (3) How would it be enforced? If their foreign priests are refused entry (and is this possible for EU nationals?), they could send some of their Irish priests here. If they were refused corporate personality they could worship on members' private property and have individuals hold assets in their own names. There are cheap flights to Spain so communication with Palmar would be almost impossible to prevent. What else - forbid meetings in private houses? Ban Palmarian literature? I would go so far as to suggest social services keep a close eye on Palmarian child-rearing practices some of which sound abusive, but even that is worrying as a possible infringement on religious liberty. I also think the Spanish authorities, who are the only ones who can deal with the head of the serpent, should investigate their finances. Any further and we are really into persecution territory. I had heard they have a new church in Lusk (which in one sense was even a relief as it suggests they are not planning a Jonestown hegira to Palmar) but I am surprised and worried that they have young families. I thought their antics would have left them confined to a dwindling pool of ageing original recruits and their descendants. Pray for everyone caught up in this mess - it's the only thing we can do. Hibernicus, I accept that banning them might seem a bit harsh, but given that there are more Palmarians of Irish origin than any other country (even Spain), Ireland should play a leading role in protecting its people from it. I also accept that a ban would be largely unenforcable, and I would envisage the extent of it being the Palmarians' assets in Ireland being frozen and the group being prohibited from opening churches or proselytising here (again as a group, rather than as individuals). As you say, this would not extend to private homes nor would I support anyone actually being arrested simply for being Palmarian. As it happens, I would not be sad to see Scientology banned in a similar manner as well, as it is perhaps even more brazenly profiteering, though as no one has died on their account, I would be slow to push for it. I also agree that the Spanish authorities ought to do more, but Ireland too has a responsibility to protect its citizens. When a man dies in their care and there is an attempt to bury him in suspicious circumstances with no explanation given to the family, a red line has been crossed and there needs to be consequences otherwise it will keep happening again (Remember that Palmarianism contributed to the death of Bridget Crosby last year). To finish, there is a fine balancing act between religious freedom (of which I am firmly in favour) and dealing with confidence tricks and the like. As an aside, I get the impression that many Irish progresives actually think that the pre-conciliar Irish Church was like the Palmarians. Similarly, I wonder if the Palmarians for their own part take what liberals say about the Church and decide that is the way to go (Alaisdir said the same thing about some trads in general, and I think that this would be even more apt here). Of course, the Palmarian rules are about control more than anything else.
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 14, 2016 18:49:00 GMT
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Post by hibernicus on Dec 7, 2016 20:16:23 GMT
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Post by hibernicus on Jul 18, 2017 17:48:22 GMT
Dialogue Ireland links to a free online book-length study of the Palmarians by a Swedish academic: magnuslundbergblog.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/palmar-final11.pdfSome interesting details: (1) There was already in the 1950s a dubious apparitionist undercurrent in which different dotty apparitionists ignored or disapproved by church authorities cross-fed each other. Clemente/Gregory the Impostor was influenced by a French apparitionist antipope who appeared in the 1950s and put forward (for example) some of the dotty UFO material taken up by the Palmarians. (2) There is a Monfortian influence on the Palmarians' flamboyant Marianism and their self-identification as Montfort's predicted Apostles of the Last Days. (3) In the early stages of the Palmarian schism there were actually more Irish than Spanish priests. Clemente came up with some nonsense about the Spaniards being of Jewish descent and Spanish being a sacred language while English was inherently Protestant, in order to quash calls for more Irish representation at leadership level. (This coexisted with a noticeable anti-semitism.) (4) The author's secular perspective is shown when he describes the Palmarians as just another variety of religious experience and refuses to use the word "cult" or "antipope" as implying inferiority - but the distinction between "sect" and "cult" is clearly established in secular academic terms, and in those terms the Palmarians are clearly a cult. (A sect appeals to a shared body of doctrine which exists independently of the leadership - thus while the Free Presbyterians allowed Paisley a good deal of everyday opportunism, he could not have rejected a core of evangelicalism/fundamentalism without being rejected himself: a sect has no fixed doctrines independent of the leader who can revise them at any time -as when Clemente declared that the Bible had been distorted by Jews and and Masons and produced his own rewritten version.) (5) Clemente and his pals were almost certainly conmen, but at the same time they probably believed their own fantasy on some level, as an actor believes in the part he is playing. The description of his behaviour suggests a fantasist making ever more grandiose statements to evade confrontation with reality (e.g. having set a date for the miraculous restoration of his sight, when this was not fulfilled he announced that he had renounced any hope of restoration as a gesture of self-oblation). The description of Clemente and his gang engaging in luxurious living, public drunkenness and debauchery to the great amusement of the profane while the credulous faithful lived in slave conditions and scrimped to subscribe to the fraudsters is enough to make your blood boil. The story of a demonic deception; there are many more horrific details. BTW the apparently mad woman who told Alasdair after JPII's death that there were X number of Popes in Hell was presumably a Palmarian, since Clemente issued "infallible" declarations that six Popes are in Hell, including Alexander VI. Far be it from me to suggest that Alexander VI has a better chance than Clemente and his accomplices...
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Post by hibernicus on Oct 20, 2017 20:50:42 GMT
Apparently Dan Brown's (of THE DA VINCI COD) latest "literary" excretion features the Palmarians as villains. Palmar and Dan Brown deserve one another. Then again, I can understand how someone who thinks all religion is like Palmarianism could come up with the simplistic atheism which apparently dominates this screed. Don't dismiss this rubbish too quickly. There's one born every minute, and to judge from the tables in the bookshops quite a lot of them buy Dan Brown's recycled paper.
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Post by hibernicus on Oct 22, 2017 19:36:13 GMT
Damian Thompson has an article in the current SPECTATOR about the Palmarians.
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Post by hibernicus on Dec 6, 2017 20:52:35 GMT
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Post by hibernicus on Oct 28, 2020 17:53:00 GMT
The current issue of the PHOENIX (pp28-29) has an article on the planning difficulties the Palmarians are experiencing in their ongoing attempt to build a church in Lusk.
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Post by Askel McThurkill on Sept 20, 2022 18:15:01 GMT
I think the behaviour of Gregory's successor tells us all we need to know about Palma.
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