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Post by hibernicus on Jan 20, 2010 13:43:57 GMT
Post by Alasdair6, transferred from Armagh thread in the forum on working of the motu proprio Re: Armagh « Reply #11 Yesterday at 1:37pm »
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A bit off topic, but my biggest problem with the Dominicans in Drogheda was the time I walked into Mass there to find a woman reading the Gospel.
I am not impressed with the fact that the Dominicans don't have their Mass or Confession times posted in their Church, but they don't fail to proclaim their adherence to child protection at several entrances. With the Augustinians, in fairness, the older priests are pretty good.
However, a visitor to Drogheda asked what was the point in the town having either OPs or OSAs as all both did was act as supplemental parish churches without giving anything in keeping with either order's charism. I fear that can be said about a great number of monastic churches of a great number of orders in a great number of town and cities in Ireland.
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Post by hibernicus on Jan 20, 2010 13:45:24 GMT
Post by Hibernicus, transferred from the same thread
Re: Armagh « Reply #12 Yesterday at 6:23pm »
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A bit off topic as well - what exactly is the Augustinians' charism? The Dominicans I know are preachers; how might they express their charism (especially given that sermons are no longer the sort of draw they were some decades ago) - through Catholic media? To be fair, one function of the religious orders has been precisely to fill in for the weaknesses of the parochial system. We haven't realised this so much in Ireland because the parochial system was so strong and well organised, and the bishops since the early nineteenth century have been so successful in subordinating the religious orders (in comparison with other contries where they are much more independent). The big problem is that the religious orders are in decline just as the parochial system is creaking with the declining numbers of secular priests.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Jan 27, 2010 11:40:29 GMT
If you read the listings of the religious orders in Annuario Pontifice, it gives the order's express charism in Italian. In the case of the Augustinians, formally the Order of Brothers of St Augustine (though Friars might be understood from brothers, as the Franiscans are the Order of Friars Minor or the Dominicans are the Order of Friars Preacher) is to live the common life and fulfill the greatest need of the Church were they are based. The former is explicit in the Rule of St Augustine; the latter derives from the fact the Order is one of the few orders explicitly consituted by a Roman Pontiff (initially Innocent IV in 1244 but followed up by Alexander IV in 1256 - the only other order I know of which was established due to the direct initiative of a pope was the Priestly Fraternity of St Peter in 1988 by John Paul II), there is a specific attachment to the Holy See in all its fundamental documents.
This isn't apparent in what one sees from Fr Iggy O'Donovan in Drogheda or Fr Dick Lyng in Galway or hitherto from Fr Gabriel Daly in Trinity College. If the Augustininians are to have a future in Ireland, they need to seriously re-connect with where they came from.
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Post by hibernicus on Jan 27, 2010 12:58:38 GMT
Indeed - I have seen some of Fr. Daly's writings on Fr. George Tyrrell the Modernist and he declares pretty explicitly that in his opinion the Modernists were right and Pius X wrong. The Church needs this sort of stuff like the TITANIC needed the iceberg.
Your view, then, is that the Augustinians have fallen short of their charism specifically through failing in loyalty to the Holy See?
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Post by Michael O'Donovan on Jan 31, 2010 22:03:02 GMT
Post by Alasdair6, transferred from Armagh thread in the forum on working of the motu proprio Re: Armagh « Reply #11 Yesterday at 1:37pm » -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A bit off topic, but my biggest problem with the Dominicans in Drogheda was the time I walked into Mass there to find a woman reading the Gospel. I am not impressed with the fact that the Dominicans don't have their Mass or Confession times posted in their Church, but they don't fail to proclaim their adherence to child protection at several entrances. With the Augustinians, in fairness, the older priests are pretty good. However, a visitor to Drogheda asked what was the point in the town having either OPs or OSAs as all both did was act as supplemental parish churches without giving anything in keeping with either order's charism. I fear that can be said about a great number of monastic churches of a great number of orders in a great number of town and cities in Ireland. Hibernicus, Is there some confusion between us? I had two very bad experiences with the Augustinians in Drogheda; the first when the priest preached a sermon which was essentially a repudiation of the Magisterium, and the second when they had dancing girls at the Offertory. Later, I heard about Fr Iggy OSA conducting an Anglican Communion Service when he was supposed to be saying Mass. I avoid them assidusously and still regret the money I gave them for a Mass Card a few years ago. But although I have gone to the Dominican church many times, both to Mass and for Confession, I have never seen any possible reason to doubt them. I have found them excellent confessors. Certainly I have never seen a woman reading the Gospel. My only small complaint is that I don't think they need so many Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion, but the the priests are not young so there may be practical reasons.
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Post by hibernicus on Jan 31, 2010 23:08:36 GMT
Michael - I have no knowledge of the Drogheda Dominicans. If you look closely at the post, you will see it is by Alasdair; I leave it to him to respond.
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Post by Beinidict Ó Niaidh on Feb 2, 2010 12:28:54 GMT
There's no reason why both Dominicans and Augustinians in Drogheda can't be bad.
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Post by hibernicus on Feb 2, 2010 15:25:54 GMT
There is no reason why they should not both be bad - the fact is Michael G doesn't think this is the case and has only pleasant experience of the Drogheda OPs.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Feb 3, 2010 16:04:11 GMT
I don't doubt anything MichaelG says about the Drogheda Augustinians - in fact I find it credible. I personally, however, do not have the same experience. I will say I kept out of the Augustinian Church in Drogheda for a very long time after the local C of I minister was invited to 'concelebrate' at the Easter Sunday Mass in 2006.
In the case of the Drogheda Dominicans, I went to Mass there on one occasion, accompanied and my companion and I were both appalled to see a woman mount the lectern to read the Gospel as a number of concelebrants watched. We looked at each other and then left the church. This was a few years ago - before the incident in the Augustinian Church, so it could have been 2005. The Drogheda Dominicans may have changed since, but I wouldn't know. As often as I have gone into the church, last time early in January 2010, I have never seen a Mass or confession schedule displayed.
On the substantive issue of religious orders' charisms, I think the Augustinians, if they cared less about it, are in an extremely advantageous time. Pope Benedict is advocating a return to study of the study of the Fathers - especially St Augustine, which should be their forte. But they don't seem to wish to respond.
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Post by Michael O'Donovan on Feb 3, 2010 21:05:33 GMT
Michael - I have no knowledge of the Drogheda Dominicans. If you look closely at the post, you will see it is by Alasdair; I leave it to him to respond. Indeed; my apologies for careless reading.
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Post by Michael O'Donovan on Feb 3, 2010 21:12:43 GMT
I don't doubt anything MichaelG says about the Drogheda Augustinians - in fact I find it credible. I personally, however, do not have the same experience. I will say I kept out of the Augustinian Church in Drogheda for a very long time after the local C of I minister was invited to 'concelebrate' at the Easter Sunday Mass in 2006. In the case of the Drogheda Dominicans, I went to Mass there on one occasion, accompanied and my companion and I were both appalled to see a woman mount the lectern to read the Gospel as a number of concelebrants watched. We looked at each other and then left the church. This was a few years ago - before the incident in the Augustinian Church, so it could have been 2005. The Drogheda Dominicans may have changed since, but I wouldn't know. As often as I have gone into the church, last time early in January 2010, I have never seen a Mass or confession schedule displayed. On the substantive issue of religious orders' charisms, I think the Augustinians, if they cared less about it, are in an extremely advantageous time. Pope Benedict is advocating a return to study of the study of the Fathers - especially St Augustine, which should be their forte. But they don't seem to wish to respond. I can only mention the excellent Fr Ronan Cusack, whom I have praised in another thread, and the fact that I have found both him and another priest, Fr O'Brien, to be excellent and (as far as I could tell from our encounters) very orthodox confessors. I do not go to Mass in the Dominican Church every Sunday, just once a month or so, but (as I said before) I have not seen any women reading the Gospel, or any women taking part in the Mass except as readers and as Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion. As courteously as I can, I make sure to receive Holy Communion from the celebrant.
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Post by hibernicus on Feb 4, 2010 12:56:25 GMT
The point about patristics is a good one. Part of the point of the nouvelle theologie was supposed to be revival of patristic study, but a lot of the Spirit of Vatican II crowd seem to prefer "Celtic Spirituality" and other nebulous entities. This is also relevant to the Newman revival; patristics were central to Newman's thought.
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Post by hibernicus on Jun 9, 2010 16:21:39 GMT
Recently I was at Mass in a provincial city where an annual novena is held. The celebrating priest, it transpired, was a Redemptorist who had come to the church to encourage people to attend the novena. What struck me about his announcement/sermon was how apologetic he was about the whole thing. He said that he appreciated that many of those who attended the novena did not attend church regularly, if at all, but that somehow we derived enough religion from it to keep us going the whole year (given that he was addressing a congregation in church, the apparent assumption that many or most would not be regular Massgoers seems particularly odd); he talked about the novena as a catalyst which unlocked the spiritual fervour latent within the congregation themselves, and seemed to play down to vanishing-point the idea that preaching or the Eucharist might be central to the experience. He spoke of Jesus as a similar catalyst, and referred to the "hidden food" interpretation of the miracle of the loaves and fishes [i.e. that they were not miraculously multiplied, but that the crowd were inspired by Jesus' preaching to share with others the food they had brought for themselves] in a manner which suggested he believed this to be the true explanation. Lastly, he said that he appreciated that the novena might not be our cup of tea and admitted he did not particularly care for it himself. No doubt he was honest and well-meaning, which is why I have not given his name, but all I have to say is that if St Alphonsus had been such an unconfident and uncertain preacher, there would never have been any Redemptorists.
One reason why so many traditional Catholic devotions have disappeared, it seems to me,is because many priests have lost interest in them because they have lost confidence in the centrality of their own priestly role and authority on which these devotions are centred. Any thoughts?
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Post by Michael O'Donovan on Jun 10, 2010 19:28:20 GMT
One reason why so many traditional Catholic devotions have disappeared, it seems to me,is because many priests have lost interest in them because they have lost confidence in the centrality of their own priestly role and authority on which these devotions are centred. Any thoughts? I think you are right, but it seems to me that many good men and women who had vocations to the religious life have been demoralised by their formation and by what they have been told in retreats since they took their vows. It appears that many of the institutions that are supposedly there to provide formation for the religious are disastrously infected by New-Age thinking (this for nuns especially) and the perverted form of the "Spirit of Vatican II". The "Spirit of Vatican II" tendency, being of its time, adopted the Maoist notion of "permanent revolution" and seems to have deliberately infiltrated the houses of formation for the religious. I think many of them know that something is wrong and can have their vocations restored if lay people help them.
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Post by monkeyman on Jun 10, 2010 20:15:16 GMT
One reason why so many traditional Catholic devotions have disappeared, it seems to me,is because many priests have lost interest in them because they have lost confidence in the centrality of their own priestly role and authority on which these devotions are centred. Any thoughts? I think you are right, but it seems to me that many good men and women who had vocations to the religious life have been demoralised by their formation and by what they have been told in retreats since they took their vows. It appears that many of the institutions that are supposedly there to provide formation for the religious are disastrously infected by New-Age thinking (this for nuns especially) and the perverted form of the "Spirit of Vatican II". The "Spirit of Vatican II" tendency, being of its time, adopted the Maoist notion of "permanent revolution" and seems to have deliberately infiltrated the houses of formation for the religious. I think many of them know that something is wrong and can have their vocations restored if lay people help them. If they let lay people help them that is...often the old clericalism is the last thing to be expunged from the priest or religious.
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