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Post by loughcrew on Jan 19, 2010 8:51:53 GMT
I have to laugh at the great and the good of the middle classes as they flounce their way out of the church in such a state of high dudgeon as can be seen at www.countmeout.ie/. ;D
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Post by hibernicus on Jan 19, 2010 11:39:31 GMT
I have moved this thread to the Open Forum as the atheists may wish to respond to it. I'm not laughing; I think it is sad to see so many renounce their baptism and their birthright.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Jan 19, 2010 12:29:56 GMT
I have visited this site in the past, Loughcrew. I don't know if you visited the FAQ section. I would say that if you have to ask some of those questions, you haven't given your membership of the Church much consideration.
The tragedy is someone may defect from the Church in a moment's pique and then may find it difficult to go back and formally recite the Creed in Church to be re-admitted, and may continually procrastinate over this. Thankfully, God looks at the internal forum, but if a such a defector dies in a road accident or otherwise suddenly, the Church would have to regard them as an apostate. If someone genuinely, after much consideration, comes to recognise they are not Catholic - fine - defection is the proper course of action and the Church will facilitate them. But a website constructed to encourage and facilitate defections in the wake of hysterical anti-clericalism (even if it has a basis in the misdeeds and omissions of personnel in full time employment and senior positions in the Church) is something else altogether. It creates a new pastoral problem.
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Post by hibernicus on Jan 20, 2010 17:12:49 GMT
I believe it also raises canonical problems; for example, someone who formally defects from the Church and is subsequently readmitted must apply for a special dispensation before seeking ordination. I don't know how far this extends. (I know this because the issue has come up recently in connection with ex-Catholics who are currently members of Anglican traditonalist bodies seeking reconciliation with Rome. The IRISH TIMES and some of the other papers have run articles on this website and seem to be actively promoting it. The sad thing is that they see this in terms of power (i.e. they proclaim the church derives power from the numbers of its nominal membership and you can renounce their power over you by apostasy) rather than of the rights and privileges of membership in the Mystical Body.
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Post by hibernicus on Jan 20, 2010 17:17:15 GMT
BTW I'm not sure you can renounce membership in 'a moment's pique', Alasdair. My understanding is that the site instructs you on making a formal declaration of defection, but that once the declaration is received the diocese will make you wait a short period and will ask you once more whether you want to go through with it before it is finalised. Andrew Madden, who was abused by Fr. Ivan Payne as an altar-boy, recently formally defected, and yesterday's IRISH TIMES mentions he received a personal letter from Archbishop Martin asking him to reconsider before it was finalised. The existence of such cases as Mr. Madden (who unquestionably suffered great wrong) is another reson why Loughcrew's flippancy on this subject is inappropriate.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Feb 3, 2010 15:37:31 GMT
I am happy there is some delay applied. Somehow, if applications in handwriting only were permitted, it might make a difference.
In regard to the issue of 'power' - many liberals within the church see the problem in the same way.
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Post by hibernicus on Feb 4, 2010 13:26:08 GMT
Yes, the liberals' understanding of the Church is purely in terms of power, and this is why they are heading out of the Church altogether. Part of the problem is that so many of the hierarchy saw it in terms of power, or took its goodness for granted. David Quinn has a piece on his blog saying that the countmeout idea derives from atheist groups in Germany (where it has a more immediately tangible significance because of the church tax) and Italy (where there is a strong left-atheist element who would like to see the sort of aggressive secularism associated with Zapatero in Spain).
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eccles
New Member
My Old Horse Chester
Posts: 25
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Post by eccles on Feb 4, 2010 23:45:30 GMT
THis proves the power of the CCL and the measures it will take to hold on to it's "Faithfull" It reminds me of the Soviet Union were it was almost impossible for any "citizen" of that country to leave.
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Post by hibernicus on Feb 5, 2010 12:00:02 GMT
Ah, yes - try climbing out onto a tenth-floor window ledge and announcing you're going to jump, and see how many policemen and people from emergency services will gather and try to dissuade you. By eccles' logic this proves we live in a totalitarian society. Your Opus Dei albino assassin will be making his house call shortly...
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Post by Harris on Jun 2, 2010 9:28:24 GMT
From what I can gather the take up of people availing of the services provided by this site is presently low. There may be many reasons for this.
Upon reading the FAQ's it appears that one of the reasons that leaving the Catholic Church can cause problems is that sending your kids to certain catholic schools, if you have not haved them baptised, is not possible.
It appears (quote) "...many lapsed Catholics or non-believers feel obliged to have their children baptised in order to secure a place in their local Catholic-run school."
Surely this is not the correct motivation for batisim? It should be the process by which a person is admitted to membership of the Church and nothing else.
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Post by hibernicus on Jun 8, 2010 12:09:58 GMT
The IRISH CATHOLIC had an interesting piece a couple of weeks ago. Apparently the countmeout site's figure of c.10,000 defections is based on counting everyone who downloads the form as a defector, even though this includes people who click out of curiosity (including the IRISH CATHOLIC journalists themselves). The diocesan figures for people who have completed the defection process over the past year is just over 1,000.
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Post by Harris on Jul 15, 2010 11:35:07 GMT
Are there official figures available from the Catholic Church here in Ireland with regard to defections?
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Post by hibernicus on Jul 15, 2010 12:58:39 GMT
Presumably so, since the IRISH CATHOLIC published them. The IC piece from late May would have more information on how they obtained them - they are compiled on a diocesan basis and I don't know if you would have to approach the dioceses directly or if the figures are published in some central repository like the IRISH CATHOLIC DIRECTORY.
Of course this only applies to those who have completed the formal canonical process of defection, not those who simply walk away. (The situation is different in Germany, which is where the website idea originated, because there the state designates a proportion of the individual's taxes for denominational charities run by their designated church, and you must notify the state as well as the church of a formal disaffiliation. I am not sure if non-affiliated are excused the tax, or if in their case it is used for secular purposes or goes to general state revenue.)
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Post by inthebeginning on Jul 25, 2010 23:41:25 GMT
The diocesan figures for people who have completed the defection process over the past year is just over 1,000. Still pretty high though, the chances of that number defecting say 20 years ago would be unthinkable. The RCC is losing it's grip on Ireland, finally and for the better.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Aug 23, 2010 8:26:10 GMT
There are several issues here, which I want to address:
(1) Defection and Holy Orders. This only applies where a defector has received Holy Orders in a church other than the Catholic Church after defection. The largest case-in-point is the Polish National Catholic Church in America where many of their clergy and bishops are former Catholics who will not be allowed return to the Church other than as they left it.
(2) Defection and freedom. The fact that the Church does not accept every Count Me Out e-mail at face value forces people to really consider that they really do want to defect and not simply engage in flag waving for protest purposes. But as I said before, it may be easier physically to recite the Apostles' Creed in a Church before witnesses than to get a tatoo removed, but it is not an easy thing to do.
(3) Defection and the German Kirchensteuer. As far as I am aware (and I have paid the Kirchensteuer - I did not declare myself an atheist for my student summer in Munich way back when), this is an additional tax rather than part of the substantive tax. I would caution people going to work in Germany for more than a couple of months not to state they are atheists or whatever, unless they have made the necessary declaration. If the relevant Finanzamt finds out you were a church member that has not formally left, you are liable for a bill for back taxes and failure to pay this could result in a fine or imprisonment. And if you do make the declaration, think long and hard about it - as a 20-something, things may not mean a lot to you, but a defector is not entitled to church weddings or funerals or any other services the Church provides. These are things which are often viewed differently later in life or after children come along.
(4) Non-baptism of children and schools. I accept it is a bad thing that some parents feel obliged to have their kids baptised to get them into the local school; it is also a bad thing that people who have no great commitment towards bringing their children up as Catholic abuse the sacrament in this way. I believe it is necessary to review the role of the Catholic school, but the Church-State debate in relation to schools is a bit of the side-issue - a major debate needs to take place about the plummetting standards in education across the board. From a Catholic point of view, this includes addressing the inability of the Catholic school to transmit the Catholic faith
(5) The so-called grip of an institution refered to as the 'RCC'. There is no RCC. If you want to abbreviate the Church'es official title, it is the OHC&AC - the letter non-members are most sensitive towards being O. But anyway, we can review whether it is a good thing or not that the Church is losing its grip when the grip is gone. One might find a lot of conveniences one takes for granted gone with it.
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