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Post by Noelfitz on Oct 3, 2008 18:59:05 GMT
Last night (2 Oct) I was at a lecture called "Is Religion Dangerous?" The lecturer, Prof Keith Ward , argued very powerfully that it is not.
Religion, especially Christianity, is about forgiveness and love. Of course some religious people are not so nice, but if Churches ejected those who are not good, how could the Churches themselves be good?
He claimed religion is not the cause of violence or war. Of the 300 wars at present few are essentially about religion. Wars are fought for money, land and power usually. The great empires in the past, Persian, Roman, British etc. did not fight for religion.
In WWI and II there were religious and non-religious people on both sides.
The Crusades were not about religion, but between power blocks and money (especially for Venetians) was often the motive. In the Crusades the worst atrocities occurred when Christians killed Christians, as in Constantinople.
The killing of Christians by atheists (eg Communists in the USSR) in recent times is more prevalent than the reverse. If one wants to live in an atheist society emigrate to North Korea.
It is not irrational to believe in God. Throughout history thinkers and philosophers (with the exception of Davie Hume and some others) have been religious.
Finally Prof Ward claimed, on the detail of careful studies, that there is no correlation between mental illness and religious beliefs.
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Post by Noelfitz on Oct 4, 2008 18:07:02 GMT
Inedifix
Thank you for your reply.
I find your posts keep us going. They are usually thoughtful and respectful.
You wrote:
"I believe that people who believe in any religious, political or ideological dogma, to the extent that it then overrides their natural human propensity for empathy, are dangerous."
You might as well write:
"I believe people who do bad things are bad."
How could anyone disagree with thus? I do not think anyone could reasonably disagree with you.
The lecturer was at pains to point out that there is bad religion.
Many of us who are believers are biased, racist, sexist, etc, but if the Church only accepted as members those who are without sin there would not be too many members.
Thr Church is a Holy Church made up of unholy people.
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Post by stenvolt on Oct 5, 2008 12:24:32 GMT
As Jesus said:
"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matthew 10:34-39 NASB)
"49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? 50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! 51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: 52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. 53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. (Luke 12:49-53)
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Post by Noelfitz on Oct 5, 2008 16:28:37 GMT
Stenvolt
Sty is good to hear from you here.
I hope you will find us welcoming and supportive.
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Post by Noelfitz on Oct 5, 2008 16:35:05 GMT
Inedifix,
You wrote:
"Helping someone who is suffering, because you believe God commands you to or will reward you for doing so, is an act redolent with pride. Helping them simply because they need help, and you know you can give it, is not."
Thank you so much for a wise comment.
Pride is the first of the seven deadly sins. It is insidious. We have been warned about the pharisees.
Our motives are generally mixed, but it is wise for each of us to examine our motives and try to do the right thing for the right motives.
I must say you keep us going here by challenging us.
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Post by Michael O'Donovan on Oct 6, 2008 18:03:56 GMT
Helping someone who is suffering, because you believe God commands you to or will reward you for doing so, is an act redolent with pride. Helping them simply because they need help, and you know you can give it, is not. That is what we would call a defective motivation (doing it because we might get a reward), but I wouldn't deny that it is and has been common. Christ explains drb.scripturetext.com/matthew/25.htm that we should recognise Him in anyone who is in need and do it for His sake.
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Post by stenvolt on Oct 6, 2008 20:09:27 GMT
The lecturer was at pains to point out that there is bad religion. Dear Noelfitz did he say which ones? I'm sure he was talking about all the Protestant and non Catholic Religions who have fallen away from the True Church.
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Post by Noelfitz on Oct 7, 2008 7:21:39 GMT
Stenvolt The lecturer did not specify any particular religion. He, himself, is a protestant priest. Please see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Ward. What he had in mind was people that use religion for dishonest purposes or who through false beliefs become unbalanced.
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Post by Noelfitz on Oct 8, 2008 21:15:52 GMT
Hemingway
You wrote:
Unfortunately religion does have the effect of asking people to follow blindly, and when someone weilding power claims to be guided by god when making irrational or immoral requests of those within their sphere of influence, (see above examples) the result can be that the flock follow where the shepard leads.
The lecturer I referred to said that there is some bad religion. But overall the influences of religion have been good.
One can debate the issue, as we are doing here, but I think there is general agreement that some people are better that others. Some atheists are better than other atheists. Some Christians are better than other Christians. One can say this without making a moral judgment about any particular individual.
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Post by Michael O'Donovan on Oct 8, 2008 22:02:12 GMT
Is Religion Dangerous? [...] Religion itself is a belief system and cannot therefore be a danger to anyone. People are dangerous. People have done and still do bad things and claim they are doing it either in defence of or because of their religion. [...] Religion, however, does have the effect, in my opinion, of causing many people to think and act irrationally in spite of common sense. Hemingway, welcome. You have more or less answered the question already. Religion is neutral in itself. People, as you say, are dangerous (or can be). They can do bad things and appeal for justification either to religion (episodes in the Crusades or the Inquisition, or the more recent Muslim outrages) or to secular absolutes (episodes in Communism, and almost anything to do with Nazism). I would even argue that people do great evil, by abortion or assisted suicide, in the sincere conviction that they are not following any absolute belief system at all and have evolved above anything of that kind. However that in itself is a kind of faith. What all of these have in common is that they set out, in their own minds, to do good (to do God's will in the case of the religious, to bring into being a secular paradise in the cases of the Nazis and Communists, or for the abortionists and the assisted suicide people to achieve a humane, rational society). But their good intentions (Christians or at least Catholics would argue) have literally been perverted into evil actions. We put that down to an intrinsic weakness in humans which makes us vulnerable to a malign external influence.
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Post by Michael O'Donovan on Oct 8, 2008 23:31:37 GMT
Yes, I think it is. Judging it by the bombing and beheading element would I think be like saying that Billy Wright or Lenny Murphy ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenny_Murphy) were typical Northern Ireland Protestants.
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Post by Noelfitz on Oct 9, 2008 2:46:53 GMT
Saintstephen
You wrote: " therefore yes, religion can be dangerous when it leads anyone away from Christ ".
Well said!
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Post by Michael O'Donovan on Oct 9, 2008 16:35:59 GMT
Do you believe that religion exists as an entity external to human beings, i.e. that there would still be religion if human beings did not exist? Religion is is really the strcture of the relationship between humans and God so if humans did not exist, religion could not exist. But God certainly could and would,
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Post by Noelfitz on Oct 18, 2008 5:02:40 GMT
Inedfix
You wrote:
" It is completely nonsensical and illogical to propose a positive belief in a negative."
Is it nonsensical and illogical for me to propose positively that leprechauns do not exist?
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Post by Michael O'Donovan on Oct 21, 2008 17:52:13 GMT
I do not need to maintain a ‘belief’ in the non-existence of god, gods, santa, fairies, vampires, ghosts,the paranormal, spirits, Jedi masters, Xenu, Nirvana, the soul, invisible pink unicorns, etc, etc… for me, like the elephant on my lawn, they simply aren’t there. I do not hold to any set of 'beliefs'. I am a philosophical naturalist. My opinion is that we all live in a wholly natural universe describable by natural laws and forces. That's an intellectual opinion, not a belief. Interesting territory here. That is a description. So are religious faiths. Why is one a "belief" and the other not? Why should proof be demanded of one and not the other? Have you ever doubted your belief?
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