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Post by hibernicus on Sept 18, 2011 17:37:29 GMT
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 28, 2011 11:56:15 GMT
The current IRISH CATHOLIC has picked up the news that Fr Scallan and Sr McKenna have withdrawn their support for Anne the Lay Apostle.
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Post by hibernicus on Dec 10, 2011 21:01:22 GMT
Leon Podles discusses the scandals, abuse allegations and cult-like behaviour reported in connection with the French charismatic group the Community of the Beatitudes, and some of the wider questions the case raises: www.podles.org/dialogue/the-dudes-of-the-beatitudes-529.htmwww.podles.org/dialogue/french-victim-speaks-out-528.htmEXTRACT Ecclesiastical authorities have to deal not only with psychopathic manipulative abusers but also people who claim special powers and messages from God, powers and messages received outside the regular channels of authority. There are few people more skeptical than clerics about claims of private revelations and supernatural powers – although as believers clerics have to admit that these can exist and that God is free to act outside the ordinary structures of the Church (e.g., Francis of Assisi). Efraim’s enemies initially seem to have been in the traditionalist wing of the Church and they detected (correctly) that he was full of himself. But their medieval equivalents would probably have said the same thing about Francis. One commentator on the Religion en Libertad article represents this view (for which there is much to be said): There in an excessive cult of personality, instead of giving glory to God, each “iluminado” founds a movement in which government and spiritual direction are mixed. Almost all of the new movements are putting themselves in question by the conduct of leaders who seem more to seek and to prepare for their self-canonization rather than the good of the Church…. They fall into pride, believing themselves directly enlightened by the Holy Spirit. But there is only one Church founded by Christ and it is a hierarchy in which the charisms are at the service fo the Church and its mission and not for the construction of particular sects. Can’t we recognize that the Holy Spirit is showing himself clearly in allowing the revelation of the distorted structures of the new movements, in order to return us to the bosom of the Church and to avoid sectarianism? Aren’t there proven established religious orders? Why should there be more charisms? But sometimes a Francis, an Ignatius, a Wesley are necessary for the health of the Church. END
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Post by hibernicus on Jan 27, 2012 20:56:25 GMT
David Bawden of Kansas, the deluded and self-professed "Pope Michael I" has been claiming to be pope for years while remaining a layman. He has now finally got a wandering schismatic bishop to give him priestly and episcopal orders. One of his micro-group of followers heads a message board posting: "Great news- the Pope has been consecrated a bishop at last"! It would be funny if it were not so sad.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Jan 30, 2012 11:36:25 GMT
And did he reward his consecrator with a red hat?
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Post by hibernicus on Jan 30, 2012 17:06:57 GMT
Doesn't say; considering that he was elected by an all-lay "conclave" he may not think it necessary - his adherents appear to be fewer in number than the current Cardinal Electors. Maybe you are thinking of the late Fr Lucien Pulvermacher alias Pius XIII (unlike Mr Bawden, Fr Pulvermacher was in priestly orders at the time of his "election"; he was a longstanding member of the Capuchin Order before going haywire). AS "Pope" Fr Pulvermacher commissioned one of his followers, who also possessed priestly orders, to consecrate him to the episcopate. (There is mediaeval historical precedent for genuine Popes commissioning priests to confer episcopal orders - just as it is fairly common now for bishops to commission priests to administer the Sacrament of COnfirmation - though I believe the predominant view now is that episcopal orders can only be validly conferred by a bishop in person.) Pius/Pulvermacher, having been "consecrated" then administered "episcopal consecration" to his "consecrator" and appointed him Cardinal and Secretary of State. Alas, the new "Cardinal Secretary of State" resigned a week later and denounced Pulvermacher/Pius as a heretic on learning that he practised water divining. (This is an extraordinary scruple given that water divining is usually ascribed to some hitherto untheorised natural force rather than magic, but people who self-consecrate as Popes, bishops and Cardinals in this manner are hardly great exemplars of rational thought.) All this reminds me of John Smith the Sebaptist, a radical Protestant during the Reformation who decided that baptism was only valid when conferred by a true Christian and that he was the only true Christian in the world, so he began the task of evangelisation by baptising himself. Another little reminder of how the radtrad fringe is based on a very Protestant principle of private judgement.
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Post by hibernicus on Jan 30, 2012 22:52:50 GMT
Actually, now that I think of it, he could have made cardinals anytime he felt like it. If he was willing to call himself Pope while deferring his episcopal ordination indefinitely, he could have handled the requirement that cardinals be in minor orders the same way.
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Post by hibernicus on Jul 26, 2012 22:49:35 GMT
Daphne McLeod, William Oddie and Fr Zuhlsdorf have taken up the apocalyptic prophecies of OUr LAdy of Good Success (Ecuador) promoted by MArian Horvat and Tradition in Action: wdtprs.com/blog/2012/07/our-lady-of-quito-and-the-collapse-of-the-catholic-church-and-its-revival/#commentsEXTRACT Supertradmum says: 26 July 2012 at 2:20 pm supertradmum-etheldredasplace.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/st-joachim-and-private-revelations.html and follow the series, which is long and detailed. Pope Paul V approved devotion to Our Lady of Quito, which is not the same thing as approving the prophesies. There are different levels of approvals in the Church: for example, as saint or blessed may be approved but not all her writings. In the case of St. Mariana de Jesus Flores, the Lily of Quito, whose feast day is May 26th, she is not the same person as Mother Mariana Torres, who is the visionary. I have not found any site which shows that her, Mariana Torres revelations have been approved. Therefore, we see a devotion to Mary being approved, but not the revelations, which is not that uncommon. Also, Mother Mariana Torres is an incorruptible and her cause is still being considered in the Vatican for canonization. Her autobiography was approved by the bishop who requested it. I have seen websites calling her venerable, but I have not found a release from the Vatican as to that fact. If someone has, that would be helpful. END It seems its pedigree is questionable: EXTRACT Warloff New Member Join Date: August 18, 2011 Posts: 83 Religion: Catholic Re: Our Lady of Good Success? My problem with Our Lady of Good Success is there no documentation before 1930. You won't find a single piece of paper on the apparition before that date as all were destroyed. The document that is the basis for the apparition is supposedly a 20th century copy made by a very old nun from another document written in a secret code that no one but her could crack which in turn was a copy of a eighteenth century document which in turn was a copy of a seventeenth century document. However, only the 1930s document still exists. Contemporary documents from the period confirm that the various people involved did indeed exist and there was a huge fight between the bishops and the Franciscans over the control of the convent (which went all the way to the Pope) but no mention is made of Our Lady of Good Success. Another document refers to Sister Marianna de Jesus as a very holy woman but does not mention the apparition. Many state that John Paul declared her venerable, but I have found no newspaper articles or church documents that actually state this. If anyone has an official document regarding her venerable status I would appreciate it. In the 1940s when the current document was made public the Bishop of Quito investigated the matter and was satisfied enough to declare a novena for Our Lady of Good Success. I am skeptical because I find it hard to believe that ALL the documents regarding this event written before the 20th century were lost. The prophecies are much less impressive when you realize the most recent document is from the 20th century. And all my sources for this are not online or in English so I can't share them with you. But if you don't believe me do your own snooping. See what manuscript documents exist regarding this apparition and where these documents are located. Find out on what date Sister Marianna de Jesus was declared venerable. END forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=598847
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Post by hibernicus on Aug 27, 2012 20:26:22 GMT
Here is an interesting historical case. Therese Neumann of Konnersreuth was a Bavarian stigmatist who is said to have lived without eating for many years. She died in 1962 but still arouses passionate devotion for and against. I have never looked into her case, although the hagiologist Fr Herbert Thurston SJ, whose views I greatly respect, thought she was a hysteric, and the angry tone of one or two pro-Neumann books I have glanced at does not fill me with confidence: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therese_NeumannOne of the more admirable features about her is that she was a consistent opponent of the Nazis as enemies of God, and inspired her devotees to oppose them. The Nazis were afraid to touch her because they feared this would stir up popular opposition. One of her leading followers was Fritz Michael Gerlich, a journalist and outspoken anti-Nazi. Gerlich had met Hitler in the post-war nationalist political underground in Munich. He had considered the possibility that Hitler might indeed be the saviour Germany was looking for, but after Hitler barefacedly lied to him Gerlich recognised the Nazi leader for what he was - a psychopath who cared for no-one but himself and expected total loyalty without any reciprocating loyalty on his part. Throughout the 1920s and until 1933 Gerlich published outspoken denunciations of the NAzis, exposing the thuggery and swindles perpetrated by party members, denouncing anti-semitism, and ridiculing NAzi racial doctrine (for example, a spoof analysis of Hitler's face predicting that his "Asiatic features" showed that if he ever gained power he would be a second Genghis Khan and would wreak devastation on the world). In 1927 Gerlich visited Konnersreuth with the intention of exposing Neumann as an impostor, but instead he was impressed by her. Under her influence he converted to Catholicism (he had been a Protestant). For a time he acted as her amanuensis, as the Romantic poet Clemens Brentano did for Bl. Catherine Ann Emmerich over a century earlier. (One of the problems with assessing Emmerich's alleged visions BTW is that no-one is sure how much derives from her and how much is Brentano's interpretation.) Then Gerlich returned to the struggle against Nazism (and Communism) with renewed vigour. With the assistance of a number of well-to-do Neumann devotees he founded a paper called THE STRAIGHT WAY (DER GERADE WEG) which appeared right up until the NAzi seizure of power. Then he was seized and flung into the prison camp at Dachau. He was kept there under horrendous conditions until the "Night of the Long Knives" purge in 1934 - then the stormtroopers beat him to death, and his steel-rimmed glasses (his "trademark") were delivered to his wife, their lenses smashed and covered in his blood. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Gerlichwww.gerlich.com/ [German-language tribute site] There is a good account of Gerlich in Ron Rosenbaum's book HITLER; THE ORIGINS OF HIS EVIL. Rosenbaum, who is convinced Neumann was a pretty transparent fraud, asked an old journalist who knew Gerlich "Surely he couldn't have really believed all this stuff? He must have been pretending, so as to gain supporters." "No", the journalist replied. "He really believed it. You've got to remember, this was the Weimar Republic. Everybody was looking for a heiland - a prophet". Should the fact that Therese Neumann was capable of inspiring this sort of heroic resistance to the worst criminals of the century count as "good fruit" telling in favour of her authenticity, or not? Now here's an interesting connection. It seems that one of the readers of DER GERADE WEG was a police officer living in Marktl am Inn on the south-eastern edge of Bavaria - his name was Joseph Ratzinger, the father of our present Pope. According to the memoir by the Pope's elder brother Georg, their father certainly read the paper and kept copies in the house, though he does not know if the elder Ratzinger was an actual subscriber. This is yet another reminder of how misplaced the taunts about "his father was a German policeman, therefore a Nazi" are. Someone who read DER GERADE WEG must have been a determined opponent of Hitler. It also raises another question. Might the Ratzinger parents have been devotees of Therese Neumann? (Konnersreuth is up in NE BAvaria near the Czech frontier, Marktl down in the south near Austria). HAs the present Pope ever expressed an opinion on her? I am not BTW a Therese Neumann devotee promoting her cause under pretence of ignorance. I really don't know. Do any of our readers have any knowledge and/or opinions on this case?
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Sept 4, 2012 13:54:01 GMT
I have heard it suggested that one of the problems about Therese Neumann is that she was uncharitable. However, her resistance to the Nazis, however low-key, was be admired. On the topic of Bavaria/Catholic Germany (includes Rhineland, Westphalia and other areas - Baden - see other discussions). A friend of mine works in Radio Horeb ( www.radio-horeb.de/), a Catholic radio station on the German-Austrian border run by Rev Richard Kocher, a priest of the Augsburg diocese. Father Kocher is inspired by the Charismatic renewal movement. Though the FSSP is established in the Augsburg diocese (Wigratzbad, but they also have a church in Augsburg), Fr Kocher is not a fan. For all that, several new religious movements show up in and around the area. To take a small sample that I can remember there is the Spiritual Family of the Work of Christ (known as Opus Christi - Bishop Boyce has a few of these up in Letterkenny www.raphoediocese.ie/religious-house/83-the-spiritual-family), Opus Angelorum/Order of the Cross, Servi Jesu et Mariae/Katholische Pfadfinderschaft Europas, Schönstatt Movement, the Marian Movement of Priests and a whole host of localised prayer groups attached to private revelations through Germany, Austria and Switzerland. One observation is that it is remarkably easy for dodgy religious organisations to operate in Switzerland (and this area is close to Switzerland and Liechtenstein) and all sorts of weird groups from traditional through Marian devotional to conservative charismatic show up from over the Swiss border for house Masses. The Austrian diocese here is Feldkirch (the Swiss is Chur and the Archdiocese of Vaduz covers all of Liechtenstein) and it seems the Bishop of Feldkirch has many crosses to bear - most originating to his west. My friend, a German resident in Austria (Feldkirch diocese), has been active in the Legion of Mary in both the Augsburg and Feldkirch dioceses told me the Concilium in Dublin has sent out an instruction to praesidia in Germany and Austria to be very careful of their dealings with Swiss Legion groups. As the director of the Legion in Switzerland is a protege of Archbishop Haas of Vaduz, Liechtenstein is ignoring the Dublin directive. So in short, the religious geography in the German-speaking world is very complex and complicated.
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 4, 2012 20:26:39 GMT
Cardinal Groer was heavily involved in the Legion of Mary in Austria and is supposed to have thoroughly distorted its Marianism in ways we needn't go into here; perhaps there is some relation to this also? Quebec also seems to sprout weird groups which are either mad rad-trad or esoteric-occultist, and sometimes a mixture of the two. For that matter, there are quite a few eccentric prayer-groups around in this country which grew out of the moving statues in the 80s. Perhaps there is a common denominator in the spiritual uncertainties, frustrations and sense of loss of traditionally Catholic regions where Church observance and the "official" devotional culture have recently collapsed? They say in the US people with a Catholic upbringing are overrepresented in dotty UFO groups in comparison to their share of the population. New Agers take a fairly strong interest in MArianism and try to reinterpret it for their own ends. They've done it with Medj and Lourdes (and probably with Fatima as well). When I was doing a Net search for references to Fritz Gerlich's relations with Theresa Neumann, I came across a mediumistic website hailing Neumann as a "channeller".
BTW after hearing that Gerlich's resistance to Hitler features in the miniseries HITLER: THE RISE OF EVIL (Robert Carlyle as Hitler) I looked it up on Youtube (it was depressing to see that although the series' attitude to its central character is clearly hostile, the person who posted it signed himself "Swastika" and many of the comments express admiration for the Nazis). Gerlich is played by Matthew Modine, and they avoid the religious aspect of his politics (presumably to keep viewers from seeing him as a fruitcake, though the point may also be that the film Gerlich represents other anti-Nazi Munich journalists as well as the historical Gerlich). In one scene Gerlich and his wife are walking down the street while Gerlich laments that the Depression has increased support for the Nazis and he complains that his employers are more interested in publishing gossip than exposes of the Nazis' crimes. "Look at this" he complains "BAVARIAN FARM GIRL SEES VISIONS OF THE VIRGIN MARY". WIFE: "But she gives people hope". GERLICH: "So does Hitler!" This is not historically inaccurate, given that this is what Gerlich thought of Neumann before he actually met her, but it should probably be seen as a hat-tip to viewers who might know a little more about Gerlich.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Sept 5, 2012 9:57:20 GMT
It is Switzerland rather than Austria that is problematic from a Legion of Mary point of view. This seems to be related to how flexible Swiss law is in regard to religious movements - interestingly both the SSPX and the FIUV incorporated in Switzerland in the late 1960s/early 70s. The current FIUV leadership don't see the advantage in the relationship with the Swiss Confederation now and they are very foolishly changing it.
Re: the greater tendency of US (ex?)Catholics to be involved in UFO movements, is there a co-relation between this and the British statistic that although men from all religious backgrounds convert to Islam in more or less proportionate numbers, the highest proportion of female converts by far are Catholic women?
I think you are right about Quebec being a centre for off-the-scale movements in several directions.
To address the substantive point of this thread, and indeed this forum, though some of these 'weird new movements' are problematic in themselves, all are sympthomatic of greater problems in the Church. The bulk of forum contributors here are drawn from the broad traditionalist movement. We are probably as such blinder to the minutiae in other movements which could well be numerically bigger than the traditionalists. Let's just enumerate what we have:
1. Traditionalism. Many traditionalist groups operate outside the Church, the bulk of which revolve around the SSPX. There is a smaller, less organised sedevacantist movement outside this. Within the Church structures, there is no centrally organised traditional movement: the FSSP, ICRSS etc are independent of each other; most individual traditionalists attend Masses said by diocesan priests (my criticism is that too many of these are very committed lay people who are left to their own devices and gravitate to readily to the virtual traddieland on the Internet. More moderating influence is needed, and I'm a little afraid that the clerical influence doesn't operate in this way).
2. Marian movements. Of course this includes traditionalists and other Catholics. Much of this is around private revelation and different groups gravitate towards different 'messages' - traditionalists to Fatima and charismatics to Medjugorje. True, Fatima is authenticated, but not every interpretation of Fatima is sound as the career Rev Nicholas Gruner made for himself will testify. Many ordinary Catholics would see the two as complimentary. Incidentally, trads are not innocent in regard to private revelation as attachment to Garabandal and Don Stefano Gobbi will show. Anyway, the vast and diverse Marian movement leads first to a vast and diverse global network of prayergroups operating essentially outside Church control. Again, like traditionalists, the devotees are highly motivated and largely good people, but they need direction, in particular moderating influence and they are not getting it. I should also say that private revelation will have an impact on well established Marian movements like the Legion of Mary and also that many of these devotees can be prey for the likes of Christina Gallagher or the Bayside fraud in NYC.
3. New Religious Movements. I'm tempted to say their name is Legion. We all have heard 'expose' after 'expose' of Opus Dei, but I also remember a book named 'The Pope's Armada' which covered the Focolare Movement, Communion and Liberation and the Neo-Catechumenate. However, there are many, many others. I mentioned the Spiritual Family of the Work of Christ above. This blurs the distinction between a religious order and secular institute and seems to be characterised by a very strict view of obedience and a control freak view of a superior's duty. These show up in other movements too. Some are neo-Ignatian - the Lumen Dei Union in the Hispanophone world is an example. Others have military symbolism - Miles Jesu and the Militiae Mariae are an example. I'd hate to think what Maria Duce might have become if it hit the streets about a quarter of a century later than it did.
4. Catholic scouting. I've said before and no doubt I will repeat again that scouting on continental Europe is a response towards the deficit in Catholic education which is equivalent of homeschooling in the US. I'm basically pro; in fact I think it's a better response than homeschooling, ceteris paribus. But it has its own timebombs. Basically, the umberella group is the Union de Scouts et Guides d'Europe and they are organised across the continent (even in Quebec, which looks more to France than the US). But scouting groups have their own problems too. If I say that some groups have little control, these and the groups above have too much - but the problem is that these intensify rather than moderate. In Germany, Austria and Switzerland, the Servi Jesu et Mariae direct the Katholische Pfadfinderschaft Europas which can lead to the experience being very intense. But I think the rule is if parents/families are involved with the child's participation, it will work out ok.
5. Prayer group proliferation. These may or may not be anchored in some Marian revelation or some charismatic prayer group. Again the motivation here is very good but it operates completely in its own way - and it requires moderation which isn't always there.
6. Charismatic groups. They are still a feature of the landscape, maybe burnt out a little in the Anglosphere (where they were always a bit too close to evangelical Protestantism anyway), but still a feature on the continent. In France, their centre is Paray le Monial (yes, it is anchored on Sacred Heart devotion). It gave birth to a few different religious communities, the Community of the Beatitude above, the Emmanuel Community (which has been responsible for a lot priestly vocations in France) and other groups like the Community of the Lion of Judah. This is very big.
7. Other groups - I would think of Hans Urs von Balthasar's Johannine Community in Switzerland with its very instense spirituality; the Community of St John in France (the Petite Gris) which seem to occupy a frontier between the traditionalists and charismatics that no one noticed was there; a great many groups which exist around the phenomenon of World Youth Day (which I can tell you dwarfs the trad Paris-Chartres pilgrimage, whether we like to admit it or not).
So, in conclusion:
A. Traditionalism is a much smaller concern than trads even realise; B. For something in decline, there is a lot of new foundations going on in the Catholic Church. This survey out of my own head is heavily bent towards Europe where the Church is, in anything, most stagnant; C. The diversification seems to desire to fill massive gaps; D. The movements are centrafugal; E. The common factor is that all these groups need a form of regulation or direction which is moderating. They tend rather to be either anarchic or they tend to be intensifying. This seriously needs to be addressed.
My obs - for what they're worth.
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Post by Askel McThurkill on Sept 5, 2012 13:41:41 GMT
The Sant'Egidio is another new movement.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Sept 18, 2012 10:05:03 GMT
I've looked at the last post above and noticed I left Opus Angelorum/Order of the Cross out. I would regard them as one of the new religious movements, though its foundation is on private revelation. Their website is here: www.opusangelorum.org/english.html This of course is all positive. There is nothing said about the psychological problems that many of the original OA people had and the cultic nature of the movement. Even the title 'Canons Regular of the Cross'. This was an older order which became extinct in the 19th century. OA were advised that they might get approval to revive this rather than present themselves as Opus Angelorum. This sounds a bit like dodgy planning permission to me, but the CRC got approval. However, that did not mean an end to the identity of OA, as is apparent from their website. They had an apostolic visitation and recommendations were made which included an end to many of the devotions to angels originally promoted by their foundress. But there is very little to this group. They are little more than very devout OF liturgy, with songs on guitars adopted from WYDs, preaching publicly in favour of Medjugorje and telling of a host of pious stories. Little is robust in the way of their theology. The auxilliary bishop of Kazakhastan, Athanasius Schneider is a member - and I thought the international trad movement very ill-advised to feature him too much. I gather there is one Irish priest who is a member. Personally, I would run a mile rather than have anything to do with them. I know a family deeply involved with them, and although they are the nicest of people, I don't believe they've benefited. Quite the contrary, in fact.
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Post by hibernicus on Oct 23, 2012 21:47:24 GMT
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