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Post by Michael O'Donovan on Feb 11, 2008 22:06:21 GMT
I was at Mass yesterday and the (young) priest gave a long and eloquent homily on the Gospel story of the temptations of Christ. In the course of it, he reaffirmed the Church's teachings on contraception, abortion and sex outside marriage. He talked about damnation and how it is not a matter of God condemning people to Hell, but of people choosing to separate themselves from God; how there is a narrow gap between us and unity with God, and a series of choices putting our own will before God's will widen that gap to a point where it has got to. big for us to bridge it.
Nothing there that you would not find in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. But a number of people walked out, one man muttering fairly audibly while passing me that he wasn't "listening to any more of that f***ing sh**e". (Sorry if that offends anyone, but I would like it to be very clear.)
The priest told of a parishioner saying to him that all he was needed for was to say Mass and conduct Baptisms, weddings and funerals. "If we need you for anything else, we'll tell you."
Has it come to a point where people who regard themselves as Catholics are actually offended, and almost regard it as bad manners, when they are presented with what the Church actually teaches? Why is that? Is it because the sex scandals have offered people an easy excuse for putting all inconvenient teachings to one side? Is it because so many priests (not only those demoralised by the sex scandals, but also those who think that the only measure of success is the number who turn up at Mass) have made their homilies so bland and non-specific as far as Church teaching is concerned? Is it because Catholic education in many schools has been watered down to a point where it is barely Christian? Is it because of the media?
Any other reasons, or any suggestions for solutions?
The previous day, I had been at a wedding where the priest had to ask the congregation to kneel for the Eucharistic prayer. They weren't all young, and most of them, including the young ones, would have been brought up as Catholics.
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Post by robert on Feb 12, 2008 16:44:01 GMT
This featured in the Connacht Sentinel in Galway. The reporter met up with people attending the annual Novena. I think a large number of Catholics are now just picking the parts that suits and we are seeing more an individual spirituality as opposed to doctrine and catechism.
Today, Roisin Ni Dhonncha a secular journalist had an interesting feature in the Galway city based 'The Connacht Sentinel'. She caught up with some people who attended 'the novena' yesterday. Their comments are interesting.
'Bar worker Adrian (28) explained: "I think it's the Novena's novelty status. It's not like 'ordinary' Mass. It just seems more spiritual."
Aoife (23), " I felt like I needed a spiritual cleansing. It's different to Mass as it doesn't require the same dedication or commitment and you get the same out of one week than you would get out of 'three months of Sundays.' It's like a week of detox.
Elizabeth (26) works in a clothes shop " I don't always get to Mass on a Sunday because it's on very early if you've been out the night before, but it's easy to find a time to suit you with the Novena. I'm going to try go every day for the week'
Cathal (42) " I like to go to the novena. I try to go to Mass every weekend but the Premiership(football/soccer) highlights is on Saturday nights and then sometimes the kids have matches on Sunday mornings"
Katka (30) from Poland "I have been living in Galway for two years but this is the first time I've been at this type of thing and it was very nice."
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Post by katierd on Feb 13, 2008 15:40:16 GMT
Hi Everyone
I live in County Cork. Very interesting topic. I am not from Ireland originally (from Southern Africa actually) but my mother is.
I lived here for a few years in the early 80's when there was a severe recession going on. However, the churches were thronged. We had to get to Mass really early in order to get a seat. Sadly, over twenty years later and this doesn't happen apart from a few Masses that I go to. I think that with the Celtic Tiger, people who are now alot wealthier than in the 80's have lost their faith whereas in the 80's with the recession, people turned to their faith in times of need.
I also found this whilst living in Africa (Zimbabwe and South Africa). Catholics there have a strong faith. The political and security situation there is not good and the Catholics in general know that their faith is number one and it shows at Mass.
On to the subject - I can remember going to a Mass last year where the visiting priest mentioned in his sermon how wrong "living in sin" is and how it is not frowned upon anymore and just about everyone lives together these days without being married but the fact of the matter is that it is a mortal sin.
A few people walked out and after Mass I heard people complaining that there are far worse sins in this world today than living together and if that priest comes back again, they will not go to Mass there, etc. etc. etc. and he cannot tell them what to do and what not to do and some went on to say, look at the sexual abuse in the Church, etc. etc. etc.
I guess these types of sermons (and there haven't been many) make many people uncomfortable as they should do. It is Catholic teaching after all.
I don't agree that every sermon has to be a fiery one but I do think that they still have to be there somewhere every now and then to remind the congregation.
My mother mentioned that as a child, she remembers fire and brimstone sermons all the time where people would be shivering in fear almost and people used to be terrified going to Confession as many priests used to give them lectures in the confessional.
That to me is wrong - we are all sinners and it is great to know that we have a loving and merciful God but I do feel that we should all be reminded in a nice way about the Church's teaching which does not happen very often these days.
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Post by salvaporta on Feb 18, 2008 20:04:52 GMT
There is a pretty similar story in England , but I have to say I am a bit taken aback with some of the stories I am reading from Ireland, which we were always brought up to consider the standard bearer of the faith. I wonder if its got anything to do with Ireland being such an important player in the European Union, and the economic boom times. The EU is an atheistic institution, openly hostile to the Church. It wouldn't be surprising if one of the prices that Ireland has had to pay for the good times , is a weakening of traditional ties. .
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on May 21, 2008 10:20:20 GMT
Ireland has no guarantee of preserving the faith.
The Holy Father has drawn our attention to how fervent the Middle East and North Africa were prior to the rise of Islam (while Crom Cruach was still worshipped in Ireland) and again how fervent Scandanavia was in the Middle Ages (when England was 'Our Lady's Dowry' and Scotland was 'Our Lady's Crown' - and Lithuania was still pagan)...
Our Lord told the pharisees God could raise children of Abraham from the stones...so Ireland may falter in the faith.
That is the challenge to us at this time.
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Post by falconer on Jun 2, 2008 13:50:53 GMT
Last week I was at a communion party in Dublin. Suffice to say that of the 5 children who'd made their communion 4 of their parents said they'd only had the children baptised in order to get a school place. They won't be attending mass and if, presumably, the children go on to make their confirmation, after that they will likely have little to do with the Catholic Church.
Beyond the BDM (births, deaths, marriages) variety are there really that many devout Catholics in Ireland?
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Post by falconer on Jun 2, 2008 13:57:49 GMT
Hi Everyone On to the subject - I can remember going to a Mass last year where the visiting priest mentioned in his sermon how wrong "living in sin" is and how it is not frowned upon anymore and just about everyone lives together these days without being married but the fact of the matter is that it is a mortal sin. That to me is wrong - we are all sinners and it is great to know that we have a loving and merciful God but I do feel that we should all be reminded in a nice way about the Church's teaching which does not happen very often these days. Just a technical point: If you get married and are still a sinner then you are no more living in sin not being married as being married. You're a sinner either way...
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Post by Michael O'Donovan on Jun 2, 2008 20:35:27 GMT
Last week I was at a communion party in Dublin. Suffice to say that of the 5 children who'd made their communion 4 of their parents said they'd only had the children baptised in order to get a school place. They won't be attending mass and if, presumably, the children go on to make their confirmation, after that they will likely have little to do with the Catholic Church. Beyond the BDM (births, deaths, marriages) variety are there really that many devout Catholics in Ireland? Falconer, welcome here (and I do suspect you don't share the outlook of most posters). You are absolutely correct, in my view. A large number of Irish Catholics are now no more than Catholics in name (though not yet a majority, I think). Ironically, my atheist brother-in-law has sent his two daughters to a Church of Ireland school, expecting (I think) that they will get an upper-middle-class education without Catholic trappings, but their C of I teachers are far more careful about ensuring that they get a Catholic formation than their counterparts in nominally Catholic private schools would be.
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Post by falconer on Jun 2, 2008 21:33:14 GMT
Last week I was at a communion party in Dublin. Suffice to say that of the 5 children who'd made their communion 4 of their parents said they'd only had the children baptised in order to get a school place. They won't be attending mass and if, presumably, the children go on to make their confirmation, after that they will likely have little to do with the Catholic Church. Beyond the BDM (births, deaths, marriages) variety are there really that many devout Catholics in Ireland? Falconer, welcome here (and I do suspect you don't share the outlook of most posters). You are absolutely correct, in my view. A large number of Irish Catholics are now no more than Catholics in name (though not yet a majority, I think). Ironically, my atheist brother-in-law has sent his two daughters to a Church of Ireland school, expecting (I think) that they will get an upper-middle-class education without Catholic trappings, but their C of I teachers are far more careful about ensuring that they get a Catholic formation than their counterparts in nominally Catholic private schools would be. I don't think I'd agree that the "Catholics by Name" as you call them are the minority. In my experience they are most likely in the majority. When something becomes so all pervading or dominant as Catholicism is in this country or say Buddism is (or was) in Tibet it tends to be followed automatically and as a result without question. Anything followed without question can be followed with little regard to what it actually is or is not. People do it with the attitude "thats just the way things are".
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Post by Michael O'Donovan on Jun 2, 2008 22:46:51 GMT
I don't think I'd agree that there "Catholics by Name" as you call them are the minority. In my experience they are most likely in the majority. When something becomes so all pervading or dominant as Catholicism is in this country or say Buddism is (or was) in Tibet it tends to be followed automatically and as a result without question.. I wish it was followed automatically but those days are gone, for the last ten years at least. Your gain: our loss.
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Post by ger on Jun 3, 2008 7:00:30 GMT
Falconer, welcome here (and I do suspect you don't share the outlook of most posters). You are absolutely correct, in my view. A large number of Irish Catholics are now no more than Catholics in name (though not yet a majority, I think). Ironically, my atheist brother-in-law has sent his two daughters to a Church of Ireland school, expecting (I think) that they will get an upper-middle-class education without Catholic trappings, but their C of I teachers are far more careful about ensuring that they get a Catholic formation than their counterparts in nominally Catholic private schools would be. I don't think I'd agree that there "Catholics by Name" as you call them are the minority. In my experience they are most likely in the majority. Among my friends and neighbours I feel like the minority. When I go to Mass and see the Cathedral packed with all ages, it's different. When something becomes so all pervading or dominant as Catholicism is in this country or say Buddism is (or was) in Tibet it tends to be followed automatically and as a result without question. Anything followed without question can be followed with little regard to what it actually is or is not. People do it with the attitude "thats just the way things are".[/quote] Those days are definitely gone. On a Sunday morning, when all your neighbours are having a lie-in and their kids are calling for your kids, and you have to constantly explain you can't do this or that because you're getting ready for Mass - you will question why you bother, and you will have to repeatedly explain to your kids why you bother. You won't be sat in Mass saying to yourself 'well that's just the way it is.' I look around me at couples with their small children struggling to keep them still and reasonably quiet and I can assure you they aren't sitting their brainlessly thinking oh well that's the way it is you sit here for an hour and then you go home, although you could have skipped getting the family dressed for Mass and relaxed in the back garden.
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Post by falconer on Jun 3, 2008 11:05:48 GMT
I don't think I'd agree that there "Catholics by Name" as you call them are the minority. In my experience they are most likely in the majority. When something becomes so all pervading or dominant as Catholicism is in this country or say Buddism is (or was) in Tibet it tends to be followed automatically and as a result without question.. I wish it was followed automatically but those days are gone, for the last ten years at least. Your gain: our loss. Maybe its more true to say they automatically use it as part of their identity rather than follow it in the sense of being influenced by it in their daily lives. I don't think most people in this country even question whether or not they should have a Catholic funeral/marriage or have their children baptized. In that sense they do it automatically. They do it as much because it's what "we" do and it's as much about being a part of the community as it is about anything else. The claims that Catholicism is dying in Ireland are exaggerated. To the question "is chruch teaching no longer acceptable? The answer is YES to a great extent". But if you asked the question "is being Catholic in Ireland no longer acceptable" the answer is NO. Not following all the rules is still a long way from burning one's membership card.
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Post by falconer on Jun 3, 2008 11:15:24 GMT
Among my friends and neighbours I feel like the minority. When I go to Mass and see the Cathedral packed with all ages, it's different. Those days are definitely gone. On a Sunday morning, when all your neighbours are having a lie-in and their kids are calling for your kids, and you have to constantly explain you can't do this or that because you're getting ready for Mass - you will question why you bother, and you will have to repeatedly explain to your kids why you bother. You won't be sat in Mass saying to yourself 'well that's just the way it is.' I look around me at couples with their small children struggling to keep them still and reasonably quiet and I can assure you they aren't sitting their brainlessly thinking oh well that's the way it is you sit here for an hour and then you go home, although you could have skipped getting the family dressed for Mass and relaxed in the back garden. Something that's lasted 1700 years is not going to fade away overnight because of a temporary attention deficit. Most people I know who consider themselves Catholic don't even seem to know any of the basic tenets of it nor do they go to mass but despite that would not countenance being called anything other than Catholic.
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Post by royalosiodhachain on Jun 15, 2008 3:51:13 GMT
Has it come to a point where people who regard themselves as Catholics are actually offended, and almost regard it as bad manners, when they are presented with what the Church actually teaches? Why is that? Is it because the sex scandals have offered people an easy excuse for putting all inconvenient teachings to one side? Is it because so many priests (not only those demoralised by the sex scandals, but also those who think that the only measure of success is the number who turn up at Mass) have made their homilies so bland and non-specific as far as Church teaching is concerned? Is it because Catholic education in many schools has been watered down to a point where it is barely Christian? Is it because of the media?
Any other reasons, or any suggestions for solutions?
Michael, I do believe the primary reason why Catholic's (or anyone else for that matter) who oppose the truth, will persecute one that stands for the truth. Christ was persecuted as well for proclaiming the truth while they were planning to stone Him to death. As He had Divine Power to slip away unnoticed, he escaped death before His time arrived. In this day, there is no difference between how unholy persons perceive the truth and persecute others for it as Christ said, "No servant is greater than the Master, if they persecute me, you will suffer as well" Your Priest was telling the truth and suffered for it, even though he was not stoned to death, words can kill as well. You attend Mass with a very unholy lot of people. Look around you to find those that are not offended, they are the few that Christ spoke of, " The road is narrow and the way is difficult for those who follow me, but it leads to everlasting life". Do not be cowed by the threats of the wicked, persevere to win the Everlasting Crown of Glory.
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Post by royalosiodhachain on Jun 15, 2008 3:57:28 GMT
Just a technical point: If you get married and are still a sinner then you are no more living in sin not being married as being married. You're a sinner either way...[/quote][/i]
Falconer, Your technical point is quite blunted. To make the distinction that marriage is a sin is untrue. To mate out of the Sacrament of Matrimony is a sin. To be united with your spouse in the Sacrament of Matrimony is not a sin, nor is it a sin to be tempted. It is a sin to act on your temptations to sin. Your weak attempt to denigrate the Holy Sacrament of Matrimony is pathetically degenerative. Brace up and accept responsibility for your choices.
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