Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2015 15:15:53 GMT
I am well are of Fr Z., but can't say I'm familiar with Fr. X and Y.
Yes, I'm sorry. No more bad jokes.
Sounds like an interesting fellow. Private revelations though. Those can be difficult to deal with. It's quite infuriating to see how some people can be fooled so easily like that. Not that I hold any hard feelings towards them.
|
|
|
Post by hibernicus on Oct 31, 2015 19:31:57 GMT
Mine Bean Ui Chribin got suckered into the Palmarians through belief in private revelations/Marian apparitions, though she broke with them after seeing them close up. Dialogue Ireland has two posts by a woman describing how her mother got lured into the Palmarians at a difficult time (her husband was treating her badly and the Palmarians became her support network) - this would be about 1975-81. She herself was in the Palmarians aged 8-14 but left because she wanted to get an education, whereas Palmarian women are pressurised either to marry or become nuns when they reach mid-to-late teens. Her mother eventually broke with the Palmarians over their multiplying rules, and her children took her to a church saying the EF Mass (I would guess from the time-frame this is either the SSPX at Mounttown or SS Michael and John's INdult Mass, probably the latter.) dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2015/10/29/palmarians-joan-a-former-member-tells-her-story/dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2015/10/30/palmarians-joan-part-2-ways-to-cope-and-overcome-the-isolation-of-cultism/
|
|
|
Post by hibernicus on Nov 26, 2015 22:57:03 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Beinidict Ó Niaidh on Nov 27, 2015 10:28:19 GMT
This reminiscence is interesting. Mina Bean Ui Chribin's daughter Áine spent about a decade in a Palmarian convent. This was the subject of a TG4 documentary. The daughter is now married, living in Kerry and working in the public service. It was the departure of Áine from the convent and its aftermath that caused the rupture between Bean Ui Chribin and Palma.
The fatal flaw seems to have been that Bean Ui Chribin was prepared to accept Palmarian bonafides at face value at first and only address the matter when confronted with a contrary reality. This was also the case with the Roscommon incest case; basically to assume the establishment is wrong in all things and react accordingly. Very much in keeping with the ultra-republican mindset of non-recognition of the state (yes, she does fall into this category). Bean Ui Chribin also appoints herself spokesmen for groups she's attached to - first the Palmarians (including Bishop Michael Cox, who celebrated Mass in her oratory); then the SSPX (denouncing the same Michael Cox after the "ordination of Sinéad O'Connor), during which she gave a very Blaneyite answer to the R na G interviewer: we didn't leave the Catholic Church; they left us. She was much more silent on moving from the SSPX to the Indult.
But I wonder can the Hall book be compared to the German language book by Doris Wagner reviewed in the Brandsma some issues back. Ms Wagner is now married to a former priest of the Spiritual Family of the Work, which suggests they haven't done so in Church. These I think are the effects of over-exposure to intense and unmoderated religosity and it seems to matter little whether it happens within or without of the Church.
|
|
|
Post by hibernicus on Nov 28, 2015 20:20:36 GMT
Some more material on the Palmarian stories above: This IRISH INDEPENDENT story suggests strongly that the Palmarian prohibitions on speaking to anyone who does not observe Palmarian restrictions contributed to the sad fate of Brigid Crosbie (the woman in Wexford): www.independent.ie/life/religious-cult-took-our-sister-from-us-says-family-of-bridget-crosbie-34237646.htmlDialogue Ireland has more material on the Palmarian nun-memoirist. Note that her move to the Palmarians came after difficult experience in an authorised religious order (there were few other novices and most of the sisters were considerably older than her; she became pregnant, whether through seduction or rape is not clear, gave the child up for adoption, and was then refused readmission on the grounds that her conduct showed she had no vocation). The article (whatever may be in the book) refers to the Palmarians only in terms of extreme asceticism and institutionalisation, rather than the more flagrant abuses of which Clemente Dominguez and some of his followers have been accused. The article makes it quite clear that she no longer believes in a transcendent God: dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2015/11/28/former-nun-shares-rocky-road-by-corazon-miller/The experience of Mine Bean Ui Cribin seems to be replicated in a lot of people who are led astray by supposed private revelations, taken at face value. This is one reason why IMHO the post-Vatican II removal of the old restrictions on publicising such alleged revelations was a bad thing, especially since modern communications make it so much easier to present them at a distance to people who do not have the same means of judging them as people close up do. I remember hearing a recording of Bean Ui Cribin talking to Gay Byrne, and what struck me is that she mostly justified himself by reference to private apparitions, rather than any doctrinal authority: www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOouWNasmtU Her emergence as spokeswoman for whatever group she was involved with may be related to the fact that old-style CAtholic education tended to instil deference to authority and discourage speaking up, so she might have been the only person willing to speak up - I think it's a generational thing.
|
|
|
Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Dec 1, 2015 15:50:52 GMT
The story of Bridget Crosbie is tragic - it seems worse than the tragedy of elderly people: single, widowed or childless couples who are isolated and suckered into making large donations to Christina Gallagher. With Palmar, people are just cut off from everybody - relatives, neighbours or anybody else who could help. The point about the ambulance is noted as a particular. I just think it will go very hard at judgement on those who lead people to this and proclaim it to be virtuous.
The case of Marion Hall is another aspect of this - not as final, but showing the potential for damage. I'd like to know the circumstances where she as a Sacred Heart novice or junior professed was able to come into contact with a man by whom she became pregnant, but given the amount of experimentation that was happening in the 1970s, it's not unimaginable. Conversely, clerical students were known to get girls pregnant at the time (and sisters were not unknown to have sexual relationships in the mad period). What I think is unusual is that the impression conveyed is that this is a layman. It doesn't say so explicitly. Anyway, she was let down here and her reaction of going to Palmar was out of the frying pan and into the furnace. It is not at all surprising that Ms Hall should have a disproportionate view of God, the Catholic Church and religion after this, but I wonder are we hearing the full story.
I shall have to listen to the clip with Mine Bean Ui Chribin. I agree about the culture of deference, which is not a good thing. Often those willing to speak out were the last people who should speak out and Bean Ui Chribin is one such case. For someone who can be so critical in some areas, she can be extraordinarily trusting to the point of gullibility in others.
|
|
|
Post by hibernicus on Dec 3, 2015 22:13:40 GMT
On reflection I suspect that if the gentleman who gave out literature outside St KEvin's recently was a Palmarian (I think he was because he was pushing the "Paul VI as martyred Prisoner of the Vatican" line, which is associated with the Palmarians though it may not be unique to them) he was a fellow-traveller rather than a mainstreamer. His literature was not professionally produced (b&w photocopies from newspapers) and the Palmarian code as described would make it almost impossible for them to speak to non-Palmarians, let alone evangelise them. That is one sign of going wrong - prizing group loyalty/retention above evangelisation to the point where the outside world is almost written off (the Westboro Baptist Church in America, known for its vitriolic denunciations of homosexuals, Catholics etc are a particularly terrible example - they actually maintain that the mission which God has given them is to preach the Gospel truth to humanity so that the human race, having heard the gospel, may be justly damned for rejecting it). I think this is what Pope Francis may be getting at in some of his comments about conservatives and traditionalists, though whether those comments are misplaced is another matter. Jesuits have historically tended to undervalue liturgical piety.
|
|
|
Post by Young Ireland on Dec 3, 2015 22:20:08 GMT
On reflection I suspect that if the gentleman who gave out literature outside St KEvin's recently was a Palmarian (I think he was because he was pushing the "Paul VI as martyred Prisoner of the Vatican" line, which is associated with the Palmarians though it may not be unique to them) he was a fellow-traveller rather than a mainstreamer. His literature was not professionally produced (b&w photocopies from newspapers) and the Palmarian code as described would make it almost impossible for them to speak to non-Palmarians, let alone evangelise them. That is one sign of going wrong - prizing group loyalty/retention above evangelisation to the point where the outside world is almost written off (the Westboro Baptist Church in America, known for its vitriolic denunciations of homosexuals, Catholics etc are a particularly terrible example - they actually maintain that the mission which God has given them is to preach the Gospel truth to humanity so that the human race, having heard the gospel, may be justly damned for rejecting it). I think this is what Pope Francis may be getting at in some of his comments about conservatives and traditionalists, though whether those comments are misplaced is another matter. Jesuits have historically tended to undervalue liturgical piety. How did Mina Bean Ui Cribin manage to promote the Palmarians whilst keeping to those rules? Or where they implemented after she had left?
|
|
|
Post by hibernicus on Dec 3, 2015 22:41:26 GMT
They were implemented well after she joined (some of them after she left). Clemente Dominguez and his accomplices recruited followers for some years before they took the step of getting illict priestly and episcopal ordination (from Archbishop Ngo Dinh Thuc) and it was a few more years before he actually declared himself Pope. He initially championed the TLM; then in the mid-80s he replaced it with the Palmarian Rite. A few years later and he was rewriting the Bible on the basis of his supposed private revelations. The dress and behaviour code are part of this process, which works to isolate the hard core of followers from the rest of the world and tighten the leadership's grip over them. One classic definition of the difference between a cult and a sect is that a sect appeals to a standard of belief shared by the members which also constrains the leadership (for example, Ian Paisley could make self-serving decisions, but he could not have turned round one day and told his Free Presbyterians to venerate the Pope; indeed the FPs eventually deposed him as leader when they disapproved of his political deal with SF). A cult, on the other hand, is totally under the leadership's control and the members will do whatever they are told even if it contradicts what the leaders previously taught - the classic example is the Children of God cult which went from standard Evangelical teaching to highly depraved practices at the behest of its leader, who represented himself as a prophet to justify his own depravity: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_International
|
|
|
Post by hibernicus on Dec 7, 2015 21:27:14 GMT
Dialogue Ireland has a post on Mena Bean Ui Cribin and the Palmarians, with useful links dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2015/12/05/mena-bean-ui-chribin-and-the-palmarians/#more-15877Another interesting thought that occurs to me is that one would almost think that Clemente Dominguez and his pals had taken as the standard they should aim for the image of the Papacy as held by Ian Paisley and the like. The fact that the Palmarian Rite reduces the Mass to little more than the words of consecration, while Clemente retained all the traditional ceremonial associated with the person of the Pope, clearly indicates his sense of priorities.
|
|
|
Post by hibernicus on Jan 6, 2016 20:15:46 GMT
Dialogue Ireland reproduces an interesting SUNDAY TIMES piece about the Palmarians, with reference to the tragic Bridie Crosbie case. Two depressing details: (1) A very large proportion of their early nuns and bishops were Irish. Clemente Dominguez targeted Ireland very early on - from the early 70s. (2) The creeps who drew up the Palmarian code knew precisely what consequences it would have for some of their followers in terms of driving them into utter isolation. The article quotes a Palmarian publication which urges followers to accept loneliness as part of the sacrifice necessary to follow the code. I really think there is something demonic about Palmar - either direct intervention, or the sort of commitment to evil required to fleece and dominate people on the basis of a lie, as Clemente and his accomplices seem to have done. dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2016/01/04/the-strange-case-of-bridie-crosbie-bypavel-barter/
|
|