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Abortion
Jun 2, 2018 19:59:42 GMT
via mobile
Post by unfortunately on Jun 2, 2018 19:59:42 GMT
I read your account and it was interesting although I am still unsure why Catholicism was the religion you decided to have faith in.
I don't believe the universe is entirely comprehensible to the human mind. We are evolved primates with many limitations and cognitive biases.
I can't explain the universe, I don't think anyone can even though some people claim to. Physicists are asking questions and trying to increase human knowledge. Religious people claim God just exists and always has and don't ask questions as they already have the answers.
The sadist already knows that suffering is bad as he doesn't want to suffer himself, and I assume he understands that the victim's don't think their suffering is good. He is inconsistent, I could point that out - he could say he doesn't care. I could point out that if we all took his view then he might suffer as a victim of someone else - he could say he doesn't care.
But how does it help if I say that the universe was created by an all powerful entity that says torturing is wrong - he could say I don't care.
I believe morality is a framework that has developed to regulate human interactions, we just have to have the optimum system. I can't see how it is absolute.
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Abortion
Jun 2, 2018 20:11:55 GMT
via mobile
Post by unfortunately on Jun 2, 2018 20:11:55 GMT
I understand the point you were making Unf. You were suggesting that having faith in a higher being, to whom you would rely on for knowing best and helping you decide on the final say, could be abused to make people do atrocious things that otherwise they may be reluctant or outright refuse to do, Actually Antaine I am criticising the concept of faith itself, it doesn't have to be in a supernatural power. Unquestioning belief in anything is bad. Claiming certainty over things you can not possibly know. If you just believe for the sake of believing and will never falter then how do you know you are believing the right thing? Muslim extremists kill themselves and others convinced they are doing God's will and they will be rewarded in heaven for doing this. Of course there is no evidence or sensible reason to believe that this is even remotely true. We need a common dialogue and accept external evidence that is objective. Personal faith, "it's true for me" type of thinking is not self correcting but self reinforcing
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Post by maolsheachlann on Jun 2, 2018 20:22:55 GMT
The sadist already knows that suffering is bad as he doesn't want to suffer himself, and I assume he understands that the victim's don't think their suffering is good. He is inconsistent, I could point that out - he could say he doesn't care. I could point out that if we all took his view then he might suffer as a victim of someone else - he could say he doesn't care. But how does it help if I say that the universe was created by an all powerful entity that says torturing is wrong - he could say I don't care. I believe morality is a framework that has developed to regulate human interactions, we just have to have the optimum system. I can't see how it is absolute. I wasn't talking about religion in that instance. I was interrogating your claim to base morality on suffering (the avoidance of it, presumably). Saying that morality is a framework that has developed to regulate human interactions and that we have to have "the optimum system" doesn't help you one bit. To regulate human interactions to what end? By what criteria do you judge something is optimal?
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Post by assisi on Jun 2, 2018 20:26:22 GMT
I understand the point you were making Unf. You were suggesting that having faith in a higher being, to whom you would rely on for knowing best and helping you decide on the final say, could be abused to make people do atrocious things that otherwise they may be reluctant or outright refuse to do, Actually Antaine I am criticising the concept of faith itself, it doesn't have to be in a supernatural power. Unquestioning belief in anything is bad. Claiming certainty over things you can not possibly know. If you just believe for the sake of believing and will never falter then how do you know you are believing the right thing? Muslim extremists kill themselves and others convinced they are doing God's will and they will be rewarded in heaven for doing this. Of course there is no evidence or sensible reason to believe that this is even remotely true. We need a common dialogue and accept external evidence that is objective. Personal faith, "it's true for me" type of thinking is not self correcting but self reinforcing You say ' Unquestioning belief in anything is bad' Yet you believe that the concept of faith is untenable. Your opinion appears to be a certainty for you. Therefore you too have an unquestioning belief. So, by your own logic, your belief is bad.
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Post by maolsheachlann on Jun 2, 2018 20:28:05 GMT
I can't explain the universe, I don't think anyone can even though some people claim to. Physicists are asking questions and trying to increase human knowledge. Religious people claim God just exists and always has and don't ask questions as they already have the answers. No, unfortunately. Atheists like yourself just claim to know how religious believers think, and don't listen to any explanations to the contrary as they are so convinced that they already know. I'm finished trying to help you out on this-- I'll leave it to others. Try opening your mind a bit.
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Post by assisi on Jun 5, 2018 16:11:19 GMT
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Post by hibernicus on Jun 6, 2018 21:24:10 GMT
Actually, if unfortunately thinks religious people don't ask questions, I would recommend that he try a book called SUMMA THEOLOGICA by St Thomas Aquinas. It's full of questions - thousands of them. Just because we can never fully understand God's purposes doesn't mean we can't understand them better, and many many believers have tried. BTW fideism - the belief that faith is incompatible with reason - was formally condemned by the First Vatican Council in 1870.
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