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Post by eircomnet on Nov 13, 2012 10:37:30 GMT
Even if good appears to come or actually does come from a fake "apparition", the big picture is that the false "apparition" can in no way be supported. For those who may have been converted in Medjugorje, think what disillusionment may ensue when the event is finally declared false as must happen eventually--maybe not this year, maybe not next year but eventually. There are a number of internet sites that give the compelling factual negative issues surrounding Medjugorje. I think the theotokos website has some material on it. For my part, I came to a negative conclusion from reading the pro Medj books. To have the "Vision" come on the side of the "visionary" against the local bishop is just one of a number of problems for any mystical theologian. Michael Davies RIP has extensive articles on the subject which can be downloaded.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2012 20:48:25 GMT
I wonder have many of the pro Medjugorje brigade carefully considered what they are going to do if the Church declares the apparitions and messages of Medjugorje untrustworthy ?
Will there be yet more splits and infighting in the Church to be exploited by the ACP etc. or will the vast majority of them accept the decision and authority of God's Church and go back to supporting and promoting the Magisterium, Knock, Lourdes, and Fatima ? Let's hope and pray it is the latter.
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Post by annie on Dec 2, 2012 11:30:13 GMT
Please pray for the happy repose of the soul of Fr Petar Vlasic who has passed away. He was parish priest in Medjugorje. His funeral Mass was celebrated on 9th November by Bishop Ratco Peric together with Fr Ivan Sesar, the Provincial of Herzegovinian Franciscan Province who gave a homily and with numerous priests who had concelebrated. Thank you.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2013 11:24:09 GMT
Any reliable updates on the international Vatican Commission's investigation ?
Is it possible the commission will rule favorably on the fruits of Medjugorje, but suspend judgement on the apparitions as they are still ongoing ?
Pope Francis will have a difficult decision to make.
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Post by hibernicus on Jul 23, 2013 21:25:54 GMT
Haven't heard anything about how the commission is going. Ruling on the fruits without deciding on authenticity seems to me like getting the cart before the horse. Suppose (for the sake of argument) that such a ruling were made and that at some time in the future the apparitions were definitely proven to be a hoax? Remember it is not unknown for frauds to produce some good fruits, not because of the fraudsters but because of the faith of those they exploit. That wouldn't justify the fraud. Good fruits are an element in assessing an apparition but they can't be judged in isolation.
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Post by hibernicus on Nov 8, 2013 23:54:47 GMT
Looks like Medj is having more problems: wdtprs.com/blog/2013/11/cdf-directs-clerics-faithful-not-to-attend-conferences-favorable-to-medjugorje/www.patheos.com/blogs/markshea/2013/11/the-cdf-remind-us-that-pilgrimages-to-medjugorje-are-forbidden.htmlwww.patheos.com/blogs/markshea/2013/11/are-pilgrimages-to-medjugorje-reeeeeeeally-forbidden.htmlwww.patheos.com/blogs/publiccatholic/2013/11/vatican-bans-medjugorje-apparitions-in-us-churches/EXTRACTS Fabio Paolo Barbieri • 2 days ago − Medjugorje is a ramp. Period. A gang of atheists could not have invented a more obvious and more damaging piece of religious fraud. Yes, I know about it, and the thing I know is that two bishops of Mostar - the local ordinaries - have condemned it utterly, and that the religious body that manages it - a local band of what were originally Franciscans - are both spectacularly enriched and in practical schism. The failure to come down hard on this open and atrocious fraud is the worst stain on the otherwise glorious papacies of John Paul II and Benedict XVI, especially in that they failed to support their brother Bishops as Peter and his successors are supposed to ("and when you are converted, strengthen your brothers"). I am glad to see that Francis looks like he is starting to take the horror in hand, like Benedict did with the equally corrupt Marcial Maciel at the beginning of his papacy. *********************************************************************************** Fabio Paolo Barbieri pagansister • a day ago − You have to accept that miracles happen, of course. If you don't, you will just explain away anything that happens. But now I ask you to pretend that you accepted church teaching in general. Compare two cases: Lourdes, and Medjugorje. At Lourdes, an illiterate little shepherd girl testifies that she has seen a wonderful Lady who said to her, "I am the Immaculate Conception". This is a piece of theology - Mary having been born without the stain of sin - that had agitated the churches a decade or two before Bernadette Soubirous' visions; but how was this little illiterate from the high mountains of far south France, whose very name is misspelled (it should have been Bernardette, with two Rs), to have heard of it, let alone build up such a story on it? Bernadette repeats her story again and again, in front of hostile investigators,always in the same terms. Neither she nor her family show any sign of wanting to profit from it. As soon as she is old enough, she takes monastic vows and disappears from the world, to the extent that she is forgotten even while alive and even while the place of her visions becomes the greatest pilgrimage centre in Europe. ON the other hand, compare the Medjugorje seers. The revelations they ascribe to the Lady are sentimental, flat and sometimes in downright contradiction with the Christian religion - in particular, she is said to have said that all religions are equally valid. ("I am the way, the truth, and the life. Nobody comes to the father except through me." This may sound arrogant to you, but it is Christian doctrine, and you can't call a vision Christian if it contradicts such a plain statement. I am not asking you to approve or agree, but to understand that this is a necessary minimum, and that to contradict it means to be outside what we regard as Christian truth.) They profit from their revelations; one decamps to Italy with a trophy wife and a considerable fortune. They are condemned by two local Bishops in succession and merrily ignore a condemnation that should have been final. Tell me, if you were a Christian and argued from Christian viewpoints, which of them would sound to you like she had really seen the Mother of God in the face, and which like they had seen a good business opportunity? END OF EXTRACTS
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2014 23:11:33 GMT
I've been a strong critic of Medjugorje in the past. I thought I would never visit the place, and considered it for the birds. But through a strange twist of fate, I had the opportunity to visit Medjugorje recently. I was in two minds about going, but in the end just went out of simple curiosity, and before I went I put in a fairly detailed study on the topic. There has been a huge amount of misinformation and misreporting of Medjugorje. You can imagine the chaos of versions, opinions and reporting if six children from any small town in Ireland starting having visions. Medjugorje was/is no different. I found the most common criticisms of Medjugorje best answered in detail on this website : www.medjugorje-apologia.com/common_misconceptions_defense.htmlDuring my visit I seen a great emphasis being put on the Mass, fasting, the sacrament of reconciliation, and the Eucharist. I had a couple of short but intense spiritual experiences there, great waves of peace, tranquillity, comfort, love and hope, that I find hard to describe and explain, and a strange gut feeling that I've gotten to know and understand Our Lady much better. The local people from the area also seem very convinced. All intangible stuff I know, and it will take a few months for me to digest it all. To my great surprise, I've slowly come round to the idea that it could in fact be authentic, but either way I'll leave that ultimate decision to the Church. I have a feeling the Vatican commission might issue an initial cautionary permission, a preliminary permission could be granted that states: "for the moment, there is nothing opposed to it". This would permit public participation in the devotion in regard to the alleged apparitions. The numbers of Italians visiting there have to be seen to be believed, throngs and throngs of them, all ages, from young to old. Given how leaky the Vatican's Italian civil service is, they might know something we don't, or perhaps not. Ultimately, a final judgement and determination may not be made until many years after all the apparitions have ceased and /or the last visionary has passed away. If you ever do go, I would strongly recommend an organised package tour rather than doing it alone. The guides, both Irish and local, had dozens of stories to tell of events they seen over the years, many were very moving. In summary, I wouldn't write off Medjugorje just yet.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2015 17:42:50 GMT
On Sunday the Pope announced he will be visiting Bosnia (Sarajevo) on June 6 June is the month of the original apparitions in Medjugorje.
The visiting Vatican commission finished their report 18 months ago, and then it went to the CDF, a ruling of some type was expected in 2014, but it's all gone quiet since, does anyone know what the latest is ?
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Post by Ranger on Jun 29, 2015 10:34:59 GMT
Some interesting updates detailed here: www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/waiting-for-a-medjugorje-decision-12-things-to-know-and-shareA leaked report supposedly from the CDF to the Italian media said that they had ruled negatively towards Medjugorge, but a Vatican official later stated that the meeting has not actually taken place yet. However, some issues raised by Akin in that article suggest that a negative judgement may be en route. Two questions that pop into my mind: 1) Who stands to gain by stirring the pot by releasing fake reports to the Italian media about this issue? 2) More importantly, given how big Medj is in the Church here in Ireland, what kind of fallout might we expect from a negative judgement? I think the Church (and the CDF particularly) are wise to take things slowly!
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Post by hibernicus on Jun 3, 2016 22:35:46 GMT
Have been reading E Michael Jones's big book on Medjugorje (the one with the subtitle QUEEN OF PEACE, ETHNIC CLEANSING, RUINED LIVES). It came out in 1998, i.e. a few years before E Michael Jones went off the rails big-time, but some of his characteristic themes are already visible in it: (1) He takes a notably pro-Serb line. He is hostile to both Croatian nationalism and the Bosnian Muslims (in the latter case he is sympathetic to the Muslims when they are being victimised by the Croats, but hostile to them when they are being victimised by the Serbs). Quite a bit of his material on the crimes of the UStasa (true) and the policy of the Vatican (which I'd like to know more about) seems to come from Serb sources. He suggests the Bosnian Serbs are being unjustly demonised by the media and atrocities committed by them were in fact faked/staged by the Muslims. Part of his pro-Serb attitude is that the Serbs are the enemies of the World Order so he instinctively sympathises with them. (2) He seems to believe that the visionaries really saw something on the hill (which he implies was demonic) that they exaggerated this as a joke, that the Franciscans took it over and guided it for their own purposes, and that the visionaries have got rich off it. Some of this sounds plausible (when he recalls that in the 80s MEdj devotees used to claim that the lack of ethnic conflict in the area was proof of its authenticity, I remember that i heard that myself in the 80s). His habit (which underlies his pernicious development) of treating allegations as proof and possible motivation as self-evident is clearly visible. One of his strongest piece of evidence BTW is a tape on which one of the visionaries, after the visions have been ongoing for some time, shows she doesn't know what the Annunciation is, which implies she can't have been praying the Rosary regularly as she claims. (3) His view that Cold War liberalism and the anti-communist crusade were really liberal scams to brainwash catholics into abandoning their Faith is very noticeable. (Again, I think there are elements of truth in what he says but he goes way over the top). He comes across as a sort of Catholic Chomsky.u (4) The strongest part is his account of the Marian-charismatic milieu, which he treats as a sort of Marian Lollardy setting up a rival magisterium, and he has some useful material on dodgy seers and worse. ONe thing that comes out of this, BTW, is that Christina Gallagher's claim that her Houses of PRayer will be the only refuge in the forthcoming apocalypse is not unique to her. Quite a few fringe Marian groups offered to build refuges to preserve them from the TWo Days of Darkness, the time when California falls into the Pacific, etc. Presumably Gallagher latched onto this. There is also a very interesting account of where Rick Salbato's Unity Publishing is coming from (he proMotes a rival Damascus apparition, having decided it is genuine and Medj is not. I wonder what has become of the Damascus visionary? I'm sceptical about Medj but I'm sceptical about Jones too. It has useful info but it should be handled with caution except insofar as its claims can be authenticated.
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Post by annie on Jul 20, 2017 12:37:39 GMT
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Post by Young Ireland on Jul 20, 2017 22:27:46 GMT
Indeed. The tragedy is that so many people have been misled into thinking that the apparitions are genuine. If there have been conversions and other miracles in Medjugorje, it is not because of the apparitions, but because God can bring good out of anything and also because He will be there where two or three are gathered in His name. Surely the fact the among others, Pope Benedict and Pope Francis are very sceptical about the apparitions (the former certainly is, whereas the messages that the Holy Father describes can certainly be those of Medjugorje).
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Post by annie on Jul 21, 2017 14:20:25 GMT
The many slanders heaped on the priests and people of Medjugorje are bourne by them with dignity and long-suffering. One does not throw stones into empty orchards. The fruits are immense.
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Post by Young Ireland on Jul 21, 2017 15:12:31 GMT
The many slanders heaped on the priests and people of Medjugorje are bourne by them with dignity and long-suffering. One does not throw stones into empty orchards. The fruits are immense. The fruits are indeed immense, but that is not on account of the apparition, but rather God's answer to the faith of His people, most of whom are genuinely misled. Also, you do realise that the apparition claimed that Fr' Vlasic was innocent, when in fact the opposite was the case? Or that the apparition threatened to chastise the local bishop because he refused to back down in a dispute with the local Franciscans? Or that the apparition allowed the visionaries to read a book on the Index? These aren't slanders, Annie, they are the truth and well documented at that. In fact the only slanders I see are those directed at the bishops of Mostar.
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Post by annie on Jul 24, 2017 17:51:01 GMT
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