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Post by hibernicus on Jan 13, 2010 13:29:00 GMT
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Post by hibernicus on Feb 15, 2010 14:17:39 GMT
Another critical take on Medugorje, for the German mariologist Fr. Manfred Hauke. Also contains a good summary of Church teaching on Marian apparitions and private revelations generally. He is clearly a sceptic but disagrees with a couple of points sometimes made by opponents (e.g. he points out apparitions lastong over longer periods have been approved). catholiclight.stblogs.org/archives/2010/02/hauke-on-medj.html
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Post by hibernicus on Mar 2, 2010 12:30:12 GMT
I read Fr. Michael O'Carroll's two Medjugorje pamphlets (1986 and 1991) recently and they make sad reading. He describes Fr. Vlasic as the visionaries' spiritual director and absolutely central to the Medj phenomenon; he denounces Bishop Zanic for repeating what he (Fr. O'Carroll) describes as a slanderous accusation against Fr. Vlasic, whom O'Carroll describes as a man of evident sanctity. The links posted earlier on this thread will show exactly how evident was the sanctity of Fr. Vlasic (now laicised). Fr. O'Carroll was a holy priest, but he sadly lacked discernment.
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Post by hibernicus on Mar 2, 2010 12:40:42 GMT
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Post by hibernicus on Mar 5, 2010 17:43:48 GMT
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Post by hibernicus on Mar 5, 2010 17:53:52 GMT
Here is Fr. Hauke's comment on his connection with Medj (link in previous post.) Note he was a believer in the 1980s: EXTRACT I have been to Medjugorje myself and, in the mid-'80s, believed in the authenticity of the "Marian apparitions" there. Because of a great number of indicators, which have increased with the passage of the years, I have reached the conviction that the visionary experiences of the seers in Medjugorje cannot be due to the working of God. This conviction has been shared in the meantime by numerous Christians who have followed a similar path. In the meantime there is an extensive international literature on the subject pointing in the same direction. This literature, which I was not able to thoroughly cite in my interview, has mostly appeared in the English and French languages. END OF EXTRACT
Here is Hauke's comment on the argument that Medj's popularity reflects the sensus fidelium and is therefore a point in its favour: EXTRACT Müller's reference to the sensus fidei of the People of God does not bring any solution for judging Medjugorje, because Marian apparitions, according to the declaration of Pope Benedict XIV, do not constitute an object of the divine virtue of Faith. In regard to the position of Pope John Paul II, let it be recalled that he consciously avoided taking a public stand on the matter (cf. Foley, 2006, pp. 175ff.). The remarks mentioned in the work of Slawomir Oder are of a private nature and do not claim the authority of the Petrine office.
Here is an interesting point cited by Hauke affecting the credibility of at least one visionary: EXTRACT
Marija Pavloviæ issued a declaration in the Croatian and Italian languages on July 11, 1988, according to which she retracted her statements of April 21, 1988. She said that her first statement did not correspond to the truth. "I never asked the holy Virgin for her blessing for the undertaking begun by Fr. Tomislav V. and Agnes Heupel. I personally did not have approval to issue any kind of written statement. But Fr. Tomislav V. suggested to me again and again and pressured me again and again, that I as a 'seer' should write the declaration that the world was waiting for." (E.M. Jones, The Medjugorje Deception, South Bend, 1988, p. 144.) In other words, the "seer" is publicly admitting to having lied in the name of the Mother of God. END OF EXTRACT
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Post by hibernicus on Apr 19, 2010 11:53:50 GMT
Those interested in the credibility of Donal Anthony Foley's views on Medjugorje may be interested to know that in last week's CATHOLIC HERALD he had a letter arguing that Catholics are obliged de fide to beleive that the world was created in seven days of twenty-four hours, on the basis that certain Church Fathers take this for granted. Mere human reason does not enter into this matter at all, apparently - it certainly does not enter into his letter.
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Post by hibernicus on Nov 20, 2011 16:00:53 GMT
I have just deleted a couple of Garabandal posts which got into this thread by mistake.
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Post by hibernicus on Nov 20, 2011 16:14:27 GMT
Cardinal Schonborn has provoked some controversy by hosting Medj visionaries in the Cathedral in Vienna for events including an apparition (scheduled in advance for a particular time). Here are some links to discussions. Most of these are anti-Medj (including complaints that Cardinal Schonborn is jumping the gun by doing this when Medj still awaits a decision on its approval, that he is implicitly slighting Bishop Peric of Mostar who opposes the apparition, and that no bishop in Bosnia or former Yugoslavia would allow such an event in their cathedral or on diocesan property) but anyone who wants to discuss this development from a pro-Medj perspective is welcome: te-deum.blogspot.com/2011/11/medjugorje-and-situational-collegiality.html?spref=fbrorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2011/11/cardinal-schonborn-and-medjugorje.html My own position is anti-Medj, but I'm open to argument. Of course I have no official jurisdiction at all and am just a layman seeking understanding. wdtprs.com/blog/2011/11/strange-medjugorje-news/
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indy
New Member
Posts: 6
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Post by indy on Oct 23, 2012 20:49:37 GMT
Colossians 3
18 Do not be cheated of your prize by anyone who chooses to grovel to angels and worship them, pinning every hope on visions received, vainly puffed up by a human way of thinking;
I wonder does this line from Colossians have a significance for what is happening in Medjurogje? I hope its ok to open this thread up again, I am wondering if peoples opinions have changed towards what is happening there. I was quite surprised recently with some of the caliber of religious who have been making the trip out there, some very holy and wise people, in my opinion anyway.
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Post by hibernicus on Oct 23, 2012 21:18:43 GMT
I think the passage from Colossians is to the point to a certain extent. Private revelations are never a substitute for, or addition to, the deposit of faith. I confess to being a Medjosceptic. I know some people have been helped by visiting Medj, but IMHO it was their faith that helped them and not Medj. I cannot get over the fact that the so-called Gospa vouched for Fr Tomislav Vlasic's innocence of scandals which have subsequently been shown to be well-founded. Holy and wise people can be led astray. The late Fr Michael O'Carroll was a good and holy priest, but he lacked discernment when it came to apparitions and locutions, and the results of this lack of discernment were sometimes painful. What holy and wise people in particular did you have in mind? Public figures or just private acqaintances? (If the latter, there is no need to give names).
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indy
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Post by indy on Oct 23, 2012 22:12:47 GMT
I am talking about priests and some lay people who have very strong gifts of the holy spirit including healing, proven healers. Saying that Medjurogje does seem to have a special appeal for the charismatic's right now.
Maybe this is a hoax backfiring on the Evil one? I'm not sure, I was always more of a sceptic to Medjurogje and now probably still veering towards sceptic. Hard to beat the word of God at the end of the day.
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indy
New Member
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Post by indy on Oct 24, 2012 11:05:09 GMT
From 2 Thessalonians
9 But the coming of the wicked One will be marked by Satan being at work in all kinds of counterfeit miracles and signs and wonders, 10 and every wicked deception aimed at those who are on the way to destruction because they would not accept the love of the truth and so be saved. 11 And therefore God sends on them a power that deludes people so that they believe what is false, 12 and so that those who do not believe the truth and take their pleasure in wickedness may all be condemned.
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Post by hibernicus on Oct 24, 2012 20:18:07 GMT
Yes, that is the big worry - that people will treat Medj as an alternative and superior magisterium. I tend towards the view that there are periodic Antichrists and that we all in a sense live in the last days, so don't get too worried about the Thessalonians passage. Certainly Satan has never ceased to inspire false visionaries (either by direct intervention or through hoaxers). I'll wait for a definitive verdict on Medj but at present I defer to the Bishop of Mostar as the proper authority.
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indy
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Post by indy on Nov 12, 2012 21:02:00 GMT
I know I posted some biblical references to visions that may or may not be related to Medjurgje but I also have to say that there is a lot of good coming from the place. Prayer, Faith, Vocations, Fasting and more. This is a pro-medj site for sure but it does quote Fr. Gabriele Amorth. www.medjugorjetoday.tv/3036/top-exorcist-laments-apathy-to-medjugorje/Again, there is nothing like faith in Christ and in the word of God but i'm not totally ruling out some more recent stuff either. -EM
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