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Post by maolsheachlann on Aug 20, 2018 22:23:15 GMT
There's one other thing I'd like to add....there's the Alt Light, who are basically cultural libertarians and free speech campaigners, and then there are the Alt Right, who are usually (sadly) white nationalists. Why don't I just concentrate on the Alt Light and ignore the Alt Right? Because I think the Alt Light make one big mistake...they reject identity politics, often vehemently. I think identity politics are inevitable, and indeed I am a proponent of identity politics insofar as I am an Irish nationalist. My regret is that the Alt Right concentrate upon race when it comes to identity politics, rather than culture and traditions. But insofar as the Alt Right see the inevitability of identity politics, I think they are much more clued-in than the Alt Light and are often devastating in their analysis of why individualism is a delusion. I don't know if it is the right definition when you call yourself a 'proponent of identity politics insofar as I am an Irish nationalist'. Yes, you have an identity, Irish, nationalist, Catholic, male, celtic, among other things. But identity politics is a different beast altogether. It is not a politics of rejoicing, celebrating or even protecting aspects of identity. It is using identity as a weapon to put down or attack another identity. It feeds on hate and perceived prejudices. In fact, it may be said that those that promote it don't particularly like the identity they are supposedly representing. It reduces politics and life to one or two narrow features. It needs to have the oppressed and the oppressors. It ultimately divides society on purpose so that it can eventually fill the void with its own ideology. I don't see your politics resembling anything like that. I'm using in the broad sense of people making (at least some) political decisions based on membership of some collective. So, for instance, I'm hostile to the EU because I fear it will reduce Irish sovereignty. And it's not about the state, but the Irish people.
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Post by maolsheachlann on Aug 22, 2018 13:27:28 GMT
Young Ireland criticized the Alt Right for violating "basic Christian charity" and I have been musing over this comment.
Aside from the more spectacular statements Young Ireland mentioned, the Alt Right tend either to be white nationalists (in the sense that they want white people to have their own "homelands") or "race realists" (in the sense that they believe the races self-segregate and governments should stop trying to counteract this).
They very often make the point that they don't hate other races or wish them ill-- why would one doubt this?
I'm not a white nationalist and I don't care what colour anybody is, but I find their argument interesting in that I think it's just basic human nature that groups will want to live together-- which implies, not wanting a large, permanent presence of other groups within them. I wouldn't think of races so much as language groups, nations, cultures, and ethnicities (which is a different thing from race). Nobody seemed to think there was anything amiss with this until a few decades ago-- certainly nobody seemed to think that Christian universalism required engineered cosmpolitanism.
The other side of the "charity" concept is just how UNCHARITABLE political correctness is. Every time somebody says society is fundamentally racist (meaning racist against black people), he or she is accusing the majority of white people of being racist. That's deeply uncharitable. I also believe it's untrue and a manifestation of anti-white racism, which I think is widespread amongst elites.
And the same point is true of claims of sexism, etc. But this has simply become naturalized and accepted. You can slander vast numbers of people with impunity.
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Post by maolsheachlann on Aug 31, 2018 9:58:35 GMT
In case anyone thinks I am going too easy on the Alt Right, I should be clear that I DO think there are very detestable aspects to the movement, and indeed that is fatally and fundamentally flawed. For instance, I was watching this compilation of clips involving Richard Spencer (who popularised the term "Alt Right"), and as usual I am struck by his apparent cruelty and lack of chivalry. Look at the way he taunts an overweight man and tells him he has contempt for him. He doesn't opposed "black lives matter" with "all lives matter"; he argues that "no lives matter" in themselves. When he speaks about abortion (in another video) he goes so far as to say individual rights are always subordinate to the good of the collective, which is pure totalitarianism. And yet, liberals/progressives/SJWs show an astonishing cruelty and lack of chivalry which is never treated with the same horror as the Alt Right-- they are quite happy to destroy a person's career over one ill-judged tweet or comment, and feel good for doing so. Why would I even watch him? Well, it is very interesting to see liberals actually confronted with someone who DOES believe the very things they think ALL conservatives believe. Strangely enough, they don't have an answer for him most of the time; they never seemed to expect anyone would come out and say these things. And he (and the Alt Right in general) do make good SPECIFIC arguments. For instance, when one of his opponents in this video asks how he can even define whiteness, he replies that this isn't a problem and that everybody actually categorises race on sight, in the vast majority of cases. This speaks to a contradiction inherent in progressive ideology; they deny that race (and gender, and nationality) even exist, and yet they are obsessed with them and casually assign them all the time.
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Post by hibernicus on Aug 31, 2018 21:49:58 GMT
The cruelty is part of the point - it gives a sense of power through transgression. Part of the thing about Richard Spencer (unlike many other alt-righters) is that he is quite deliberately using Nazi concepts (his comment on abortion is explicitly appealing to the concept of the Volkgemeinschaft) and terminology (Lugenpresse/ lying press) in full knowledge of what they mean and where they come from. This profile is very revealing: www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/06/his-kampf/524505/You're quite right about the similarities to the politically correct left, given that there is a strong (and rather dishonest) Nietzschean influence on this form of leftism, incongruously mixed with a form of self-righteousness which invokes Marxist or anarchist concepts and claims to represent the dowtrodden. On closer inspection, quite a few far-left and antifa subcultures display a delight in violence and cruelty against the unredeemed and in the ability to shape reality through the power of the lie (e.g. concealing the existence of a Leninist vanguard group, denying the atrocities perpetrated by Stalin and/or Lenin and/or Trotsky) which strongly resembles nazism. Theodore Dalrymple/Anthony Daniels remarks in THE WILDER SHORES OF MARX that the far-left groups with whom he came into contact generally contained certain proportions of well-meaning, self-deceiving utopians and of people who revelled in vicarious cruelty and would have dearly loved to be secret policemen. For that matter, there are also religious subcultures which combine an exalted sense of their own purity with demonisation and hatred of the Impure Other. James Hogg's Gothic novel THE MEMOIRS AND CONFESSIONS OF A JUSTIFIED SINNER (about a Scottish Calvinist tempted by the devil) is the classic literary exploration of this mindset, and I am sorry to say it has frequently appeared in Irish - and other Catholic - subcultures.
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Post by maolsheachlann on Sept 1, 2018 7:09:04 GMT
The cruelty is part of the point - it gives a sense of power through transgression. Part of the thing about Richard Spencer (unlike many other alt-righters) is that he is quite deliberately using Nazi concepts (his comment on abortion is explicitly appealing to the concept of the Volkgemeinschaft) and terminology (Lugenpresse/ lying press) in full knowledge of what they mean and where they come from. This profile is very revealing: www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/06/his-kampf/524505/You're quite right about the similarities to the politically correct left, given that there is a strong (and rather dishonest) Nietzschean influence on this form of leftism, incongruously mixed with a form of self-righteousness which invokes Marxist or anarchist concepts and claims to represent the dowtrodden. On closer inspection, quite a few far-left and antifa subcultures display a delight in violence and cruelty against the unredeemed and in the ability to shape reality through the power of the lie (e.g. concealing the existence of a Leninist vanguard group, denying the atrocities perpetrated by Stalin and/or Lenin and/or Trotsky) which strongly resembles nazism. Theodore Dalrymple/Anthony Daniels remarks in THE WILDER SHORES OF MARX that the far-left groups with whom he came into contact generally contained certain proportions of well-meaning, self-deceiving utopians and of people who revelled in vicarious cruelty and would have dearly loved to be secret policemen. For that matter, there are also religious subcultures which combine an exalted sense of their own purity with demonisation and hatred of the Impure Other. James Hogg's Gothic novel THE MEMOIRS AND CONFESSIONS OF A JUSTIFIED SINNER (about a Scottish Calvinist tempted by the devil) is the classic literary exploration of this mindset, and I am sorry to say it has frequently appeared in Irish - and other Catholic - subcultures. Indeed. I notice this especially when it comes to Hell and damnation. From the time I was a child I have found the idea of Hell so horrific, even though I had no settled religious beliefs, that I could never even enjoy a fiction in which damnation is a theme-- for instance, stories about a bargain with the Devil. I can't imagine anything worse than eternal punishment. The loss of a single soul is a greater tragedy than any human atrocity whatsoever. And yet, some conservative Christians seem to actually delight in dwelling on the idea that the majority of humankind will be damned.
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 1, 2018 22:18:55 GMT
Agreed, though I must say that Jesus repeatedly warns us of Hell and that self-examination is assisted by considering what sort of mindset leads to Hell. The more I learn of Hitler the more frightening he becomes, not just because of what he did but of the way in which he presented himself as a God, and the more I look back on my own life the more remorse I feel over what I did to - or failed to do for - others, and which in the normal course of events is now irretrievable. At the same time, I also become more and more aware of why it is such a bad idea to assume certain people must be in Hell, let alone to actively wish them there. (Once again, CONFESSIONS OF A JUSTIFIED SINNER is terrifyingly apposite - all the more so because in the course of the plot on several occasions Heaven intervenes to give the protagonist a chance to escape, but he is too blinded by pride and self-righteousness to take it.) God save us all from such a death/ On such a wintry sea
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Post by maolsheachlann on Sept 1, 2018 22:33:08 GMT
Agreed, though I must say that Jesus repeatedly warns us of Hell and that self-examination is assisted by considering what sort of mindset leads to Hell. The more I learn of Hitler the more frightening he becomes, not just because of what he did but of the way in which he presented himself as a God, and the more I look back on my own life the more remorse I feel over what I did to - or failed to do for - others, and which in the normal course of events is now irretrievable. At the same time, I also become more and more aware of why it is such a bad idea to assume certain people must be in Hell, let alone to actively wish them there. (Once again, CONFESSIONS OF A JUSTIFIED SINNER is terrifyingly apposite - all the more so because in the course of the plot on several occasions Heaven intervenes to give the protagonist a chance to escape, but he is too blinded by pride and self-righteousness to take it.) God save us all from such a death/ On such a wintry sea Absolutely-- warning of the dangers of Hell is an act of charity. I like the argument I once heard made that our Lady (or was it the angel) at Fatima taught the children a prayer with the words: "SAVE ALL SOULS FROM HELL". Would God give us a prayer for something which was impossible? Universalism is a heresy if it's an assumption that all souls WILL be saved. I don't believe a HOPE that all souls will be saved is a heresy. I've heard it argued that we know for sure that Judas is damned. Others say the Church has never definitively declared anybody to be in Hell.
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 1, 2018 22:46:50 GMT
It's "save us from the fires of Hell -lead all souls to Heaven" which makes your point quite well. Of course the Fatima visions also include one of Hell which suggests it is quite well-populated, but private revelation should not be taken as definitive. I agree with you that trad anger often becomes all-consuming; I can hardly bear to read CHRISTIAN ORDER because it is so consumed by obsessive rage,and people have said the same to me about CHURCH MILITANT. That's one reason why I do my best to avoid Francis Derangement Syndrome (I think I did myself quite a bit of damage in the past with Blair DS and Enda DS) even though I sometimes find the Holy Father exasperating.
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Post by maolsheachlann on Sept 1, 2018 22:57:11 GMT
I started out abhorring Church Militant when I first became aware of them. Then I became so exasperated by what is happening in the Church that I began to admire them. And now I am back to my former view.
The atmosphere of constant negativity, hostility and bitterness which characterizes Church Militant and like-minded groups is, in my view, a sign of disease.
Only this evening I came across this line in Introduction to Christianity by Pope Benedict XVI; "At bottom there is always a hidden pride at work when criticism of the Church adopts that tone of rancorous bitterness which today is already becoming a fashionable habit". He may have been thinking of the left, but it also applies to the right.
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Post by Young Ireland on Oct 14, 2018 19:22:34 GMT
Here is another reason why it's a bad idea to even try and emulate the alt-right: in the last few weeks, a number of alt-rightists have been spreading a meme (a political cartoon referencing pop culture to make a point) suggesting that their opponents are Non-Player Characters (or NPCs for short), that is they are not really rational humans and are just reacting to instinct (the meme shows a grey expressionless android-like man and is based on the fact that non-player characters in video games (such as in Pokemon) just basically stand there and say the same things over and over). What is really sinister about this is that the philosophy behind this is taken straight out of the work of Julius Evola and Hindu occultism generally, who asserted that most people were essentially zombies with limited capacity for rational thought. Just thought I'd warn people about it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2018 14:31:38 GMT
A reminder that the NPC meme was predated by the Russian Bot meme, in which anyone not up to CNN level of politics was called a Russian Bot; the suggestion here being that if you didn't agree with them, it could only be because you are a robot programmed by Russia to interfere in US politics.
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Post by Young Ireland on Oct 21, 2018 14:52:08 GMT
A reminder that the NPC meme was predated by the Russian Bot meme, in which anyone not up to CNN level of politics was called a Russian Bot; the suggestion here being that if you didn't agree with them, it could only be because you are a robot programmed by Russia to interfere in US politics. That wasn't merely a meme though, that is actually happening even now. I don't doubt that some people were wrongly accused of being Russian trolls, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2018 15:10:32 GMT
A reminder that the NPC meme was predated by the Russian Bot meme, in which anyone not up to CNN level of politics was called a Russian Bot; the suggestion here being that if you didn't agree with them, it could only be because you are a robot programmed by Russia to interfere in US politics. That wasn't merely a meme though, that is actually happening even now. I don't doubt that some people were wrongly accused of being Russian trolls, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Sure, but my point is it's still rooted in your argument about dehumanising people as mindlessly repeating what they've been programmed to say. It wasn't merely some people being "wrongly accused"; it was just people getting angry and lazy at people who didn't agree with them, and so they took on the tactic of simply calling "Russian Bot" as a response to avoid talking about whatever the particular topic was.
NPC is just a silly pop reference to games like Elder Scrolls in which no matter how much time passes by, people say the same things and have the same conversations. The NPCs of Elder Scrolls: Oblivion have been a running joke on Youtube from some time now. I don't see it somehow extending to seriously dehumanising people, especially to the point of justifying violence.
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Post by Young Ireland on Oct 21, 2018 15:22:42 GMT
That wasn't merely a meme though, that is actually happening even now. I don't doubt that some people were wrongly accused of being Russian trolls, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Sure, but my point is it's still rooted in your argument about dehumanising people as mindlessly repeating what they've been programmed to say. It wasn't merely some people being "wrongly accused"; it was just people getting angry and lazy at people who didn't agree with them, and so they took on the tactic of simply calling "Russian Bot" as a response to avoid talking about whatever the particular topic was. NPC is just a silly pop reference to games like Elder Scrolls in which no matter how much time passes by, people say the same things and have the same conversations. The NPCs of Elder Scrolls: Oblivion have been a running joke on Youtube from some time now. I don't see it somehow extending to seriously dehumanising people, especially to the point of justifying violence.
That isn't the same though. The problem with the Russian trolls was that they were sockpuppet accounts designed to astroturf viewpoints favourable to Russia. It was more about ad hominem attacks and suggestions of deliberate bad faith than actual dehumanisation. Don't forget by the way that it is a well known fact that Moscow, along with many other countries including some NATO ones have been engaging in cyber-warfare tactics like this, so it's not obviously intellectual laziness at play here. What makes the NPC meme more sinister is the underlying philosophy behind it is ultimately based on Hinduism, that some people are non-entities like the character's you mention. That is straight out of the thinking of Julius Evola, whom many on the alt-right admire BTW.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2018 15:33:00 GMT
Sure, but my point is it's still rooted in your argument about dehumanising people as mindlessly repeating what they've been programmed to say. It wasn't merely some people being "wrongly accused"; it was just people getting angry and lazy at people who didn't agree with them, and so they took on the tactic of simply calling "Russian Bot" as a response to avoid talking about whatever the particular topic was. NPC is just a silly pop reference to games like Elder Scrolls in which no matter how much time passes by, people say the same things and have the same conversations. The NPCs of Elder Scrolls: Oblivion have been a running joke on Youtube from some time now. I don't see it somehow extending to seriously dehumanising people, especially to the point of justifying violence.
That isn't the same though. The problem with the Russian trolls was that they were sockpuppet accounts designed to astroturf viewpoints favourable to Russia. It was more about ad hominem attacks and suggestions of deliberate bad faith than actual dehumanisation. Don't forget by the way that it is a well known fact that Moscow, almond with many other countries including some NATO ones have been engaging in cyber-warfare tactics like this, so it's not obviously intellectual laziness at play here. What makes the NPC meme more sinister is the underlying philosophy behind it is ultimately based on Hinduism, that some people are non-entities like the character's you mention. That is straight out of the thinking of Julius Evola, whom many on the alt-right admire BTW. Fair enough, though I think you might be looking into it too much by calling it "sinister". It's not just the Alt-Right using this meme, and I would hazard a guess the vast majority partaking haven't a clue about Evola. But even in the off chance that they do, I'm not sure what the possible end goal could be that would lead you to consider it "sinister". I get you're saying it's dehumanising, but to what end?
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