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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2016 15:31:23 GMT
I came across a website today that had to do with offering women help and advice in regards to domestic abuse. However, there was a page called "Facts" that contained information that seems to be questionable. I should say that I'm not claiming for definite that the information is wrong, and it may even be 100% correct; however, I would rather look stupid and have to apologise for being wrong, than just accept it at face value.
So here's the first of two points:
"1 in 5 women experience Domestic Violence. (Making the links, Kelleher Associates & O’Connor, 1995)."
So a few things to note first. First off, I've seen the report, and 1 in 5 isn't completely accurate. It's actually - according to the report - 18%, as opposed to 20%. Nothing to be particularly proud of if true, but 2% out of 20% is still quite a significant amount. Indeed, 2% out of 100% is still a significant number. The second thing is that the report specifically deals with male partner violence against women, so it is not taking into account domestic violence by non-males or family members, etc. The third point is, of course, that the report is 21 years old, but nonetheless still relevant, I think. Fourth, 677 women took part in the questionnaire, though I believe over 1400 actually received questionnaires. Finally, the report believes that the numbers underestimate the seriousness of the problem, and that the numbers are probably higher; this would mean over 20% of Irish women being victims, and over 20% of Irish men being abusers.
Now as to why I am questioning the statistic. Probably the most obvious reason is the sheer number of abuses this would mean. While not exactly 50:50, 18% of women being abused in relationships would mean about 18% of Irish men using domestic violence against women. Could it be that Irish men are, or at least were as few as 21 odd years ago, abusing women in such large numbers? Yet nobody talked about it? I'm sure many people would argue that people would not discuss it openly, which would result in such silence; but surely with such numbers it would nearly be impossible to hide?
My other point is not so much questioning the statistics, as much as it is questioning what counts as domestic violence. I actually find the term slightly misleading as apparently it can also include mental abuse. Why they don't put mental abuse under domestic abuse only, and not domestic violence also is something I don't understand. That's not to play down the seriousness of mental abuse, but I believe they should be separated for the sake of clarity. For the record, the report does give details as to the % of how many received different types of abuse. The numbers are:
*13% for mental abuse *10% for physical abuse *9% threatened with physical violence *4% for sexual violence *2% for having pets/property destroyed
I had a brief look at the full report, and of the physical violence, the numbers were:
Pushed/shover - 43 Kicked/bitten/hit with fist - 29 Attempted strangle/choke - 22 Hit with an object that could hurt - 14 Thrown against something - 13 Beaten - 9 Thrown down stairs - 8 Head butted - 6 Other - 7
Pushes and shoves make up the biggest number of violent incidents. Could it be possible that this includes cases where a husband pushed his wife out of frustration in an argument, but wasn't an actual case of malicious domestic violence as is being portrayed? Could some of the other things on this list - not all of them obviously - also be situations where it was a case of an argument breaking out, possibly even becoming physical, and the husband lashed out, even though he may not actually be someone who would use domestic violence? Or am I just trying to be too optimistic in regards to how Irish men treat(ed) women?
I would have been quite young at the time of this report. Is this just something I wouldn't understand, not being mature enough in that year?
Here's the second point, which, you'll be happy to know, isn't very long at all:
"That Domestic Violence is the major cause of death and disability for women aged 16-44 in Europe, more than cancer or traffic accidents. (Amnesty International, Stop Violence against Women Campaign)."
There's not much to say about this one. Not statistics, just a big statement. Women between the ages of 16-44 in Europe are more likely to die from domestic violence than anything else? After all, it does claim "the major cause", and not "a". Even if not the single greatest killer, it's still a bold claim, and one that I can't find sources for. I tried looking it up, but causes of death for European women only goes into medical issues.
For anyone who's interested, can you give your thoughts on this? or if you are knowledgable about it and have sources - one way or the other - can you discuss this?
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Post by Ranger on May 9, 2016 20:31:13 GMT
It definitely seems dodgy to base statistics meant to represent the whole country on just 600ish people.
That said, it wouldn't surprise me. I know a lot of people from school and college who didn't have the most respectful attitude towards women, to put it mildly. I think a lot goes on behind closed doors we don't know about, and I did often hear people say that 'so-and-so used to get hit by their husband' when I was growing up.
There is definitely a bias against acknowledging that men face similar situations at the hands of their wives/girlfriends at times, but I think that there is a sensible basis in having separate groups for tackling the issue based on gender, in that men in such a situation might feel more comfortable seeking help from men and vice versa with women. I could be wrong about that though.
I would definitely say that pushing constitutes abuse. It's legally a minor assault one way or another, and a spouse should never react violently, even in anger and even if it's 'just a push.' We need to hold people to a higher standard than 'once you didn't cause a permanent injury...' I'm sure that a much larger, angry man shoving his wife would be a very intimidating and scarring experience. I see what you're saying about the different categories not all seeming to constitute 'violence;' I would have used the term 'abuse' myself.
On your second point, about domestic violence being the major cause of death for younger women... I'd find that very hard to believe to be honest. But then I don't trust Amnesty very much to be honest these days.
What website was it you were looking at? It might make it easier to get a handle on who they are.
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Post by Young Ireland on May 9, 2016 21:00:27 GMT
It definitely seems dodgy to base statistics meant to represent the whole country on just 600ish people. That said, it wouldn't surprise me. I know a lot of people from school and college who didn't have the most respectful attitude towards women, to put it mildly. I think a lot goes on behind closed doors we don't know about, and I did often hear people say that 'so-and-so used to get hit by their husband' when I was growing up. There is definitely a bias against acknowledging that men face similar situations at the hands of their wives/girlfriends at times, but I think that there is a sensible basis in having separate groups for tackling the issue based on gender, in that men in such a situation might feel more comfortable seeking help from men and vice versa with women. I could be wrong about that though. I would definitely say that pushing constitutes abuse. It's legally a minor assault one way or another, and a spouse should never react violently, even in anger and even if it's 'just a push.' We need to hold people to a higher standard than 'once you didn't cause a permanent injury...' I'm sure that a much larger, angry man shoving his wife would be a very intimidating and scarring experience. I see what you're saying about the different categories not all seeming to constitute 'violence;' I would have used the term 'abuse' myself. On your second point, about domestic violence being the major cause of death for younger women... I'd find that very hard to believe to be honest. But then I don't trust Amnesty very much to be honest these days. What website was it you were looking at? It might make it easier to get a handle on who they are. I agree with both of you, and I think that you raise a very good point about domestic violence towards men, Ranger. Even today, many men who may be victims of this are afraid to come forward about it lest they be branded as 'sissies' or unmanly. Also, I know I've brought up about the music industry before, but it can and indeed does shape the attitudes of young people in particular. There is a litany of songs out there actually glorifying domestic violence, yet we only hear the occasional whimper about them from the mainstream media about it. If our society is serious about tackling this why not impose greater regulation on the mass media so as not to present domestic voilence in a positive light. There may be an issue with freedom of expression, I admit, but with freedom comes responsibility. I would tend to agree that 1 in 5 seems to be rather high, though it is certainly more common I think than people will care to admit.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2016 22:08:17 GMT
I suppose you're right Ranger. Do you think it's a case of the problem being so big that it's just accepted? Certainly there does seem to be a bad attitude towards women in certain parts of the population, even if not amounting to domestic violence/abuse. For example, I think it was in UCD that there was a secret group of young men who would have encounters with young women (also from UCD I assume), and then share intimate pictures of the women on Facebook. I believe one of the members is or was involved with the University in some way afterwards (Student Union, maybe?) He tried to place the blame on lad culture. That's a fairly vague statement, and I have to wonder if it means a culture that supposedly applies to all young men, or if it's just a type of culture young men could potentially be a part of. Honestly though, I think he was just making excuses to cover his back. I have heard of bravado, and being a "player" or whatever, but I'm not sure lad culture usually involved degrading women? The only people I personally can think of who may have been like that weren't exactly the most respectable people anyway.
The abuse of men is, I think, a tricky one. It must be an incredibly difficult position to be in as a male victim since, as Young Ireland points out, it feels like your masculinity is being damaged if you try to talk about it, but more importantly because some advocates for female victims feel that people who try to talk about male victims are trivialising female victims. I think when people say "it happens to men too". it means different things to different people. Female advocates see it as a way of playing down the fact that male-on-female abuse is far more prevalent (which is understandable, I think), but at the same time I think the reason many men use said statement is because they feel they are being lumped in with domestic abusers.
I agree with you that whatever the case may be, a man should never push his girlfriend or wife. I suppose my point was that the malicious intention may not be there in the same way it might be with other men who blow up over nothing. Having said that, I see that trying to distinguish between domestic violence and violence out of a moment's anger is walking a rather thin line.
Again, I can't find anything to back it up since the statistics I look up only deal with medical causes of death, but if domestic violence was truly the biggest killer of young European women then surely more would have been done by now? If it is true, then that's an absolutely horrifying fact. I don't really understand how it could so casually be ignored.
The website I read it off was Tearmann, a Monaghan based service. However, I have seen these same statistics in a few other places while trying to look them up. they may have just been regurgitating them. I have no idea who put them all together in the first place. Go to the website to see the random facts from various sources they have compiled. I'm not sure who compiled that list originally, but someone did and it has been used by several places since.
I would agree with the music industry point. Especially when it comes to rap (I know, a very original choice of target). Having said that, I'm not too up-to-date with popular music so I wouldn't know much about the messages being sent out, except that it's the usual "sex sells" looking stuff.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2016 21:16:28 GMT
I want to revisit this thread briefly.
Recently I was talking to someone from a country that wouldn't be considered part of the Western world - so it may not be an accurate reflection of our problems here - who was abused as a child by a relative. The person had not told anyone in their immediate family about their abuse, and naturally I had made a big effort to encourage them to do so, but without appearing too forceful for fear of unnerving them. In the end, I didn't succeed. Reasons for not reporting it included: it was so long ago, he was nice to me afterwards, I don't want to ruin his life, people won't believe me, etc.
My reason for bringing this up is that a lot of feminists believe that the solution to this problem is consent classes. I think this is a nonsensical solution that won't work for people with a sexually aggressive mindset, and instead I feel it is up to parents to teach their children from a young age to respect other people more; and no, I don't mean simply saying be good, but to have proper talks with them and the consequences of wicked behaviour (especially for victims). On a side note, I've always found it interesting how feminists who complain about rape culture and cat calling, etc, are the same feminists who look down upon chivalry as a form of positive misogyny in which men are apparently looking down on women as being weak. Honestly, I'm under the impression that they simply say this because they feel threatened by chivalry as it challenges their self-proclaimed role as the champions of women's rights. If men behaved chivalrously, they wouldn't have a leg to stand on in regards to complaining about how men act towards women. Just my thoughts.
Getting back to the point, I believe that it is not men but women who should be attending classes related to this sort of thing. It should educate women that, in the worst case scenario, they should never try to protect their rapist, and reassure them that they are not at fault and that there are people who are there to listen to them. Besides that, it should also prepare women for situations like this as best as possible. For e.g., I have heard stories about how unwanted sexual advances can sometimes make women freeze up out of shock, or whatever might be the cause. If women were educated about situations like this, and given advice on how to deal with it, at the very least it might stop them from freezing up. Perhaps even some basic self-defence techniques could be taught?
I know this is a bit simplistic, and doesn't really nip the bud which would be the actual rapist, but at the very least it may do something. If women are better trained to deal with potential situations like this, it may dissuade would-be rapists that would otherwise act.
Not a perfect plan by any stretch of the imagination, but it might be worth something.
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Post by Young Ireland on Nov 9, 2016 21:21:34 GMT
I want to revisit this thread briefly. Recently I was talking to someone from a country that wouldn't be considered part of the Western world - so it may not be an accurate reflection of our problems here - who was abused as a child by a relative. The person had not told anyone in their immediate family about their abuse, and naturally I had made a big effort to encourage them to do so, but without appearing too forceful for fear of unnerving them. In the end, I didn't succeed. Reasons for not reporting it included: it was so long ago, he was nice to me afterwards, I don't want to ruin his life, people won't believe me, etc. My reason for bringing this up is that a lot of feminists believe that the solution to this problem is consent classes. I think this is a nonsensical solution that won't work for people with a sexually aggressive mindset, and instead I feel it is up to parents to teach their children from a young age to respect other people more; and no, I don't mean simply saying be good, but to have proper talks with them and the consequences of wicked behaviour (especially for victims). On a side note, I've always found it interesting how feminists who complain about rape culture and cat calling, etc, are the same feminists who look down upon chivalry as a form of positive misogyny in which men are apparently looking down on women as being weak. Honestly, I'm under the impression that they simply say this because they feel threatened by chivalry as it challenges their self-proclaimed role as the champions of women's rights. If men behaved chivalrously, they wouldn't have a leg to stand on in regards to complaining about how men act towards women. Just my thoughts. Getting back to the point, I believe that it is not men but women who should be attending classes related to this sort of thing. It should educate women that, in the worst case scenario, they should never try to protect their rapist, and reassure them that they are not at fault and that there are people who are there to listen to them. Besides that, it should also prepare women for situations like this as best as possible. For e.g., I have heard stories about how unwanted sexual advances can sometimes make women freeze up out of shock, or whatever might be the cause. If women were educated about situations like this, and given advice on how to deal with it, at the very least it might stop them from freezing up. Perhaps even some basic self-defence techniques could be thought? I know this is a bit simplistic, and doesn't really nip the bud which would be the actual rapist, but at the very least it may do something. If women are better trained to deal with potential situations like this, it may dissuade would-be rapists that would otherwise act. Not a perfect plan by any stretch of the imagination, but it might be worth something. I agree with everything you say here. It's rather ironic that these feminists object to chivalry, yet most of the abuse of women derives from the very opposite of chivalry.
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