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Post by Young Ireland on Oct 28, 2015 16:37:12 GMT
Given that the political classes are gearing up for the next election, I think it is time to set up a new thread for the coming months.
Personally, I think the least worst option for us is for a FF/FG/Renua coalition, ideally with a slim majority, since this is the realistic combination least likely to attempt to repeal the 8th Amendment. Given the extremely tight nature of this election, every vote counts and it is important to use it in the most effective way possible, since there is the strong prospect of a government that is even more anti-Catholic, hard to imagine though it may be, than the present one being formed next time round. For this reason, I personally feel that Fr. Brian McKevitt's editorial in Alive!, encouraging people to spoil their vote if there is no pro-life/family candidate on the ballot box, is unhelpful in this regard. This is because a) spoiling one's vote is the same as not voting at all and therefore will have no impact on the result, b) given that Ireland uses a PR system, this allows voters to rank candidates in order of preference, thus necessitating relative comparisons on issues between two candidates, giving the candidate whose stance is less undesirable the higher preference and c) all it would do is make it even easier for politicians hostile to us to get elected, since the quotas will simply be lowered. Now, I can understand if an unusually high number of people in one constituency spoiled their vote so as to generate a wider discussion, in that case spoiling can work, but to do it en masse requires a critical mass of voters that we simply do not have. If we attempted this, we would be ignored even more than we are currently, with all that entails. I know those who suggest this mean well and do so out of desperation of the poor quality of the candidates on offer, but even still, we can make a difference with our votes, especially in an election as tight as this. So we shouldn't give up yet. Anyone else have thoughts on this or the election?
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Post by Ranger on Oct 28, 2015 16:56:20 GMT
I agree that the call for spoiling in this instance is a bit reckless. I know that Breda O'Brien called for it before in the Seanad Referendum, which I think was less critical than this election will be, but I still went ahead and voted No there too.
I don't know if there are any good combinations. FF led by Martin is not going to be on our side on any issue, FG has purged those members with enough spine to stand up to them and Renua are a bit disorderly. I'll see who they're putting up in my constituency; I'd give one of the former FGers a vote if they happen to stand where I am. But I think on the whole we'll have to take Renua candidates on a case by case basis.
I agree that our next government could feel emboldened to be anti-Catholic if the mix is right. I sorely hope Sinn Féin doesn't get into power.
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Post by Young Ireland on Oct 28, 2015 17:07:22 GMT
I agree that the call for spoiling in this instance is a bit reckless. I know that Breda O'Brien called for it before in the Seanad Referendum, which I think was less critical than this election will be, but I still went ahead and voted No there too. I don't know if there are any good combinations. FF led by Martin is not going to be on our side on any issue, FG has purged those members with enough spine to stand up to them and Renua are a bit disorderly. I'll see who they're putting up in my constituency; I'd give one of the former FGers a vote if they happen to stand where I am. But I think on the whole we'll have to take Renua candidates on a case by case basis. I agree that our next government could feel emboldened to be anti-Catholic if the mix is right. I sorely hope Sinn Féin doesn't get into power. I agree with you there on all three points, Ranger. When I say that I think that a FF/FG/Renua coalition is the most optimal, I am very much aware of the flaws of each party. It's just that given the overt pro-abortion stance of the other main parties, I can't really see a better outcome than that (FF/SF will be effectively the same as we have now, but with added nationalism and SF getting its way over social issues). I agree that the Renua candidates are a mixed bag. They seem to be trying to imitate the PDs, which is not a good sign.
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Post by Ranger on Oct 29, 2015 10:20:18 GMT
Hopefully they'll be able to at least do a bit of genuine political reform if they get in. I wouldn't be hopeful for much more than that.
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Post by Young Ireland on Oct 29, 2015 10:48:01 GMT
Hopefully they'll be able to at least do a bit of genuine political reform if they get in. I wouldn't be hopeful for much more than that. I'm not sure that they will even get that, TBH. I think that the only concession they will get is the further liberalisation of the economy, since there would not be the resistance to this among FG/FF as there would be regarding political reform.
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Post by hibernicus on Oct 30, 2015 23:10:20 GMT
There is a moral duty to vote, even if it's only voting for bad to keep out the worst, and the bad once elected will I fear prove worse than anticipated. The big problem I think is that the parties now feel they will gain rather than lose by catering to the liberal agenda, because its diehard followers are more numerous, more determined, more affluent and better organised. I would say to vote for individual candidates; those who have some electoral track record (the TDs/senators who got kicked out of FG for voting against the PLP Bill, and one or two independents like Mattiea McGrath are the obvious case in point). I would also say to vote against parties and individuals who have nailed their flag to the abortion mast - these unfortunately are much more numerous.
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Post by Young Ireland on Nov 3, 2015 18:22:42 GMT
In fairness to Fr. McKevitt, and for anyone else who wonders what I was referring to, here is the article in full: Is it better to spoil your vote?If the political parties wanted us to vote for them would they not give us just policies and candidates whom we could respect – people who would uphold what is good and just even when it was not to their own advantage? How we vote in a general election is a serious matter of conscience, a matter of good or evil. We may not simply follow old personal or party loyalties or what will most benefit our own economic interests. Important though the economy is, there are even more fundamental issues at stake in the coming election, and the most fundamental is respect for human life. If we vote for a candidate or a party that intends to do evil, then we share responsibility for that evil. That is worth thinking about. It is better to spoil our votes than be complicit in evil. That is also a valid way to take part in an election, conveying a message to party bosses.
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Post by maolsheachlann on Nov 3, 2015 20:28:52 GMT
In principle I see nothing at all wrong with spoiling your vote.
If it's really the case that the coalition Young Ireland suggests is less likely to hold a referendum on the Eighth Amendment, certainly they are worth supporting. I wonder is it really the case though? All parties seem to have shown an equal zeal for anti-life and anti-family legislation.
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Post by Young Ireland on Nov 3, 2015 20:35:12 GMT
In principle I see nothing at all wrong with spoiling your vote. If it's really the case that the coalition Young Ireland suggests is less likely to hold a referendum on the Eighth Amendment, certainly they are worth supporting. I wonder is it really the case though? All parties seem to have shown an equal zeal for anti-life and anti-family legislation. Neither do I, and if anyone wants to do so, that's their decision, but given that this election is so critical, spoiling one's vote is the same as staying at home and not voting at all. It certainly won't make the parties listen, rather it will reinforce their belief that there is no votes in being pro-life/family. As for my suggested coalition, there's no guarantee that they won't attempt to repeal it, but given that all the other main parties have expressly pledged to do so, another combination would be even more likely to try and get rid of the Amendment.
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Post by hibernicus on Nov 3, 2015 22:36:09 GMT
The problem with coalitions is that their programme is formed by horse-trading after the election so you don't know what you're voting for. That said, I agree with Young Ireland that spoiling your vote is like not voting at all - it's just a way of letting off steam and will be ignored by the parties. Looked at the section on the Protection of Life in Pregnancy Act in Eamonn Gilmore's book in a bookshop. He whines that Labour lost votes in the last election because of pro-life campaigns and statements that a vote for Labour is a vote for abortion, then he goes on to say that the PLP Act would not have been passed without Labour and that he is pro-choice (he doesn't use the term, but he says that while Enda is personally opposed, like Pontius Pilate who at least had the decency not to turn up with a welcoming committee for the first batch of pilgrims to the Holy Sepulchre, he, Gilmore, believes that the state should not interfere with a woman's decision in this delicate area). In other words, the protestors were quite correct in describing his position but he objects to their disagreeing with him.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Nov 4, 2015 14:17:38 GMT
Personally, I'd take FF and Rénua on a case by case basis, look at other independents and how they stand, and at best, give FG higher preferences than the rest. The only SF candidate worth considering is Peadar Tóibin, which makes little difference outside Meath West. But the thing to do now is to get talking to all the declared candidates.
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Post by Young Ireland on Nov 4, 2015 14:33:21 GMT
Personally, I'd take FF and Rénua on a case by case basis, look at other independents and how they stand, and at best, give FG higher preferences than the rest. The only SF candidate worth considering is Peadar Tóibin, which makes little difference outside Meath West. But the thing to do now is to get talking to all the declared candidates. This is exactly my position as well. I'm also lucky that there are a few good pro-life independents/in smaller parties in my constituency, so I will be putting them first.
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Post by hibernicus on Nov 25, 2015 21:27:29 GMT
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Dec 1, 2015 12:11:18 GMT
The Labour Party wanted to make abortion an election issue; FG were hoping it wouldn't be. Well, thanks to their own lack of discipline (James Reilly) and extraneous factors (the NI High Court ruling), it will be just that.
I am getting a sense of déja vu with Fine Gael. I remember how eager pro-lifers were to believe pre-election promise (which wasn't much of a committment). This time round, they are using similar language. I think we need to be highly cautious.
FF are a better bet, but there you need to exclude Micheál Martin, Billy Kelleher, Niall Collins, Timmy Dooley, Barry Cowen, Senator Mary White and another senator whose name escapes me but I will come back with it. The other TDs and senators are fine, but FF candidates need to be dealt with on a case by case basis.
With Rénua, Lucinda Creighton, Captain Billy Timmins, Terence Flanagan and Senator Paul Bradford proved themselves on the issue. I know for a fact Councillor Ronan McMahon is very good on this issue. But everyone else will likewise be on a case by case basis.
With independents, Mattie McGrath, Michael Healy-Rae and Senator Fidelma Healy-Eames have proved themselves. Again, I will come back with more names. Obviously Senator Rónán Mullen in the NUI Senate race (also more important than ever).
Only one person within either Labour or Sinn Féin can be voted for and that is Sinn Féin's Peadar Tóibin.
I will come back to this later.
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Post by hibernicus on Dec 15, 2015 21:41:47 GMT
A Renua candidate in Cavan-Monaghan has been sacked after she compared Pope Francis to antichrist, denounced the recent St Peter's lightshow about global warning and said the Vatican was "rotten with gay sex". Oddly enough, the Renua statement said she got the boot because her statements were offensive to the gay community, even though members of said community regularly suggest the Vatican bureaucracy is full of closet cases. She appears to be a Catholic, rather than a Protestant fundamentalist (which I thought at first might be the case). I wonder has she got links to some of the individuals such as the "Two Patricks" who are talking about Antichrist in their private revelations. A sad example of someone who meant well (her statements on the family and the 8th Amendment were very good) but just didn't know how to edit her thoughts or keep a critical distance from alarmists on the Web. Personally, I fear that the election will see Endanias returned in triumph, perhaps even with an overall majority. FG are the only party that have a strong chance of being the core of a stable government, the opposition are fragmented, and I suspect there are still more people out there who have something to lose than there are people who want to pull down the pillars of the Temple. Any thoughts about how things are likely to shape up?
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