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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2015 14:55:51 GMT
"Perhaps, but doesn't that suggest where the country's attitude may lie? If they take a stance like that then they risk losing more left leaning and possibly centre voters."
"Such opinion may exist, but that does not make it right."
Which part isn't right? Orban taking a tougher stance on migrants to - as you see it - peddle to "ultra-nationalists", or the fact that people in Hungary don't want an uncontrolled number of migrants entering their country.
"Considering that the migrants keep breaking through the fences and seem to leave a trail of rubbish wherever they go, I'm not too surprised they want to keep them out. If you're going to try to keep people out of your country, you may as well do it properly."
"But how on earth is Serbia going to cope with all of those refugees, given that it is much poorer than Hungary is? Also given that the police and a journalist have been shown on camera kicking refugees and throwing food at them as one would a wild animal, is it not surprising that they would act like wild animals in response?"
Apparently Serbia isn't going to cope with them. It's sending them to Croatia. Even German politicians have finally gotten it into their thick heads that, actually, they can't afford to take the amount they said they could.*
Sorry young Ireland, but no. This is the kind of thing I was arguing about before, trying to make excuses in the most ridiculous ways possible in order to blame anyone but the migrants themselves. I have heard of one camerawoman who kicked a migrant and tripped another (who was running from the police, by the way). As for the police, I have not seen them do any such thing (though I don't deny it did happen as I don't know).
However, have you ever considered that it's the other way around? Have you considered they are being treated like animals because that's how they're behaving? The people in Calais weren't being treated like animals when they started creating "undignified scenes" after British people sent them charity. I've seen videos where the Hungarian police are merely placing bottles of water down for migrants, who then throw the water onto the train tracks while they complain. Apparently many migrants in Greece and Italy aren't exactly behaving themselves either in regards to the local population. Then of course, there's the whole leaving trails of rubbish - including abandoned tents, old clothes, food water, etc - wherever they go.
"Ok, then that proves the point I made then. If Viktor Orban feels like he has to keep up with Jobbik, obviously the attitude of the vast majority of Hungarians is becoming apparent. Also, perhaps Orban himself just genuinely doesn't want migrants in Hungary."
"Again, that doesn't make it right, especially given Hungary's history."
Why not? Again, we don't live in the awkward position of Hungary who are right in the middle with the big mouths of Germany and Austria on one side, and the mass parade of migrants on the other.
In regards to Hungary's history, I don't know too much about this, but I think this has something to do with people leaving Hungary when the Soviets began to march? Alright then, here's a few differences I can think of:
1) From what I'm aware, Hungarians moved to neighbouring countries, and didn't keep going and going until they got to the country with the best benefits.
2) If you move to a neighbouring country, or one that's close enough, the differences between the people most like won't be too great. The difference between Europe and most of the people coming here are pretty great.
3) I could be wrong, but I highly doubt Hungarians went about creating ghettos and seeking to take advantage of the local population; something that many migrants from that part of the world seem to have a habit of doing - maybe not all, but a significant enough number.
*I know a girl who lives in Germany, and her father is in the German military (or something like it) and is currently dealing with migrants entering the country. He has told her that the vast majority of the migrants are young males. First of all, I believe that is very telling about what's really going on here. Second, do no governments realise that whatever amount they actually take in will be dwarfed by the amount of people they will have to take in - and believe me, they will have to as far as they're concerned - when the migrants start crying about their poor families left behind in whatever country they came from?
Another note, the way many people go on about the war in Syria, you would think it is as simple as Assad vs ISIS. This isn't the case at all. Apparently there are many other groups. One is the force of the Kurds, whose fighters include women. Interesting that a small group like the Kurds can stand and fight while so many others go running for cover. There are several other Islamic groups fighting against Assad who are also fighting against ISIS.
According to wikipedia, the main forces are as follows (many contain sub-groups): Government (Assad, etc) Opposition (FSA, Islamic Front, etc - I'm pretty sure these forces are opposed to ISIS) Salafist (Apparently the same group that carried out 9/11 attacks. I'm not sure how they relate to ISIS.) ISIS/IS/ISIL Rojava (Kurd forces from what I can tell. I think they might be on good terms with the Assad regime. They are definitely opposed to ISIS)
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Post by Young Ireland on Sept 16, 2015 18:30:36 GMT
"Perhaps, but doesn't that suggest where the country's attitude may lie? If they take a stance like that then they risk losing more left leaning and possibly centre voters."
"Such opinion may exist, but that does not make it right."
Which part isn't right? Orban taking a tougher stance on migrants to - as you see it - peddle to "ultra-nationalists", or the fact that people in Hungary don't want an uncontrolled number of migrants entering their country. Orban doesn't merely want to restrict the number of asylum seekers, he doesn't want to take any of them whatsoever. The government there is denying people asylum irrespective of their circumstances. The saddest thing is that most of them don't even want to settle in Hungary, so what is he worrying about?"Considering that the migrants keep breaking through the fences and seem to leave a trail of rubbish wherever they go, I'm not too surprised they want to keep them out. If you're going to try to keep people out of your country, you may as well do it properly.""But how on earth is Serbia going to cope with all of those refugees, given that it is much poorer than Hungary is? Also given that the police and a journalist have been shown on camera kicking refugees and throwing food at them as one would a wild animal, is it not surprising that they would act like wild animals in response?"
Apparently Serbia isn't going to cope with them. It's sending them to Croatia. Even German politicians have finally gotten it into their thick heads that, actually, they can't afford to take the amount they said they could.* Another country ill-equipped to cope, but they have no problem allowing the refugees passage.Sorry young Ireland, but no. This is the kind of thing I was arguing about before, trying to make excuses in the most ridiculous ways possible in order to blame anyone but the migrants themselves. I have heard of one camerawoman who kicked a migrant and tripped another (who was running from the police, by the way). As for the police, I have not seen them do any such thing (though I don't deny it did happen as I don't know). However, have you ever considered that it's the other way around? Have you considered they are being treated like animals because that's how they're behaving? The people in Calais weren't being treated like animals when they started creating "undignified scenes" after British people sent them charity. I've seen videos where the Hungarian police are merely placing bottles of water down for migrants, who then throw the water onto the train tracks while they complain. Apparently many migrants in Greece and Italy aren't exactly behaving themselves either in regards to the local population. Then of course, there's the whole leaving trails of rubbish - including abandoned tents, old clothes, food water, etc - wherever they go. So you believe that any ill-treatment of the refugees is fully deserved? Now I am going to ask you a question and you need only answer yes or no: Do you approve of the way that the Hungarian government has handled this, of how it is planning to erect razor wire fences not just with Serbia, but also with Romania and Croatia, both of which are EU states? Of how the police have deliberately offered pork sandwiches to the refugees, apparently purely for provocation? Do you approve of the indiscriminate firing of tear gas and water cannon of men, women and children?"Ok, then that proves the point I made then. If Viktor Orban feels like he has to keep up with Jobbik, obviously the attitude of the vast majority of Hungarians is becoming apparent. Also, perhaps Orban himself just genuinely doesn't want migrants in Hungary.""Again, that doesn't make it right, especially given Hungary's history."Why not? Again, we don't live in the awkward position of Hungary who are right in the middle with the big mouths of Germany and Austria on one side, and the mass parade of migrants on the other. In regards to Hungary's history, I don't know too much about this, but I think this has something to do with people leaving Hungary when the Soviets began to march? Alright then, here's a few differences I can think of: 1) From what I'm aware, Hungarians moved to neighbouring countries, and didn't keep going and going until they got to the country with the best benefits. Not true. Canada, a country nowhere near Hungary, took in 37,000 refugees. Nearly all Western countries, including the US, took in some refugees as well. (Ferenc Puskas and Sandor Kocsis emigrated to Spain, while Monty Python made fun of the Hungarian community in Britain in the early 1970s, which they would not have done it Britain had not taken them in.) Also, given that most of the neighbouring countries were also Communist (and only Austria wasn't), it is unlikely that the refugees would have sought refuge there.2) If you move to a neighbouring country, or one that's close enough, the differences between the people most like won't be too great. The difference between Europe and most of the people coming here are pretty great. I would have thought that there were quite significant cultural differences between East and West during the Cold War. See also my answer to your first point.3) I could be wrong, but I highly doubt Hungarians went about creating ghettos and seeking to take advantage of the local population; something that many migrants from that part of the world seem to have a habit of doing - maybe not all, but a significant enough number. The problem with ghettos has nothing to do with ethnicity and everything to do with lack of economic opportunity. You may notice that middle-class people from ethnic minorities do integrate quite well in the West. I may also add that inner-city Dublin had very serious social and crime problems during the 1970s and 80s (e.g widespread heroin use, the large criminal underworld (think of Martin "the General" Cahill)), long before Ireland had any immigration worth talking about.*I know a girl who lives in Germany, and her father is in the German military (or something like it) and is currently dealing with migrants entering the country. He has told her that the vast majority of the migrants are young males. First of all, I believe that is very telling about what's really going on here. Second, do no governments realise that whatever amount they actually take in will be dwarfed by the amount of people they will have to take in - and believe me, they will have to as far as they're concerned - when the migrants start crying about their poor families left behind in whatever country they came from? Not that the Germans will be too worried: they need the extra population as their own is in decline.Another note, the way many people go on about the war in Syria, you would think it is as simple as Assad vs ISIS. This isn't the case at all. Apparently there are many other groups. One is the force of the Kurds, whose fighters include women. Interesting that a small group like the Kurds can stand and fight while so many others go running for cover. There are several other Islamic groups fighting against Assad who are also fighting against ISIS. Not everyone is able or willing to fight. That's why many countries with conscription allow for conscientious objection. I support Kurdish independence BTW, even if I would not support the PKK wholeheartedly.According to wikipedia, the main forces are as follows (many contain sub-groups): Government (Assad, etc) Opposition (FSA, Islamic Front, etc - I'm pretty sure these forces are opposed to ISIS) Salafist (Apparently the same group that carried out 9/11 attacks. I'm not sure how they relate to ISIS.) ISIS/IS/ISILRojava (Kurd forces from what I can tell. I think they might be on good terms with the Assad regime. They are definitely opposed to ISIS) Anatine, to be honest, I find your rhetoric on this thread to be rather unsettling, to say the least. You appear to be tarring every refugee with a very broad brush, without allowing for the religious persecution being carried out against both Christians and Shi'ite Muslims by ISIS and like-minded groups. I'd imagine that similar things were said about Irish people during the Troubles by certain elements in Britain. You criticise me for making excuses for the refugees, but you appear to be quite happy to do likewise for the appalling over-reaction by the Hungarian government, which I think at this stage is bordering on xenophobia (note that Hungary at this point is not even allowing Arab Christians into the country under the new refugee laws there). To anyone else reading this, I think that the scale of the humanitarian crisis in Syria overrides concerns about national identity, and that the EU (and the international community at large) has a duty to take in as many refugees as is humanly possible, to try and negotiate a peace in Syria and apply pressure the regime in Eritrea to roll back its draconian policies through arms sanctions or suspending non-humanitarian aid. These refugees are people just like us, not savages who must be kept out.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2015 21:25:12 GMT
“Orban doesn't merely want to restrict the number of asylum seekers, he doesn't want to take any of them whatsoever. The government there is denying people asylum irrespective of their circumstances. The saddest thing is that most of them don't even want to settle in Hungary, so what is he worrying about?”
He's probably worried about the large numbers of them making a mess and causing trouble as they pass through. I can't imagine I'd be running a country properly if I constantly had to assign my police and whatever else to deal with migrants (and I'm not talking about protecting borders), not to mention the large crowds causing inconvenience for people living in Hungary trying to go about their daily lives.
“Another country ill-equipped to cope, but they have no problem allowing the refugees passage”.
If that's their choice, so be it.
“So you believe that any ill-treatment of the refugees is fully deserved?”
No, I believe just punishment for ill-behaviour is fully deserved.
“Do you approve of the way that the Hungarian government has handled this, of how it is planning to erect razor wire fences not just with Serbia, but also with Romania and Croatia, both of which are EU states?”
Yes, I do. If they're going to create borders, then why half-heart it?
“Of how the police have deliberately offered pork sandwiches to the refugees, apparently purely for provocation?”
No, that's bad if true.
"Do you approve of the indiscriminate firing of tear gas and water cannon of men, women and children?”
If the men are behaving badly? Yes. Women and children? No. Do you approve of a crowd of mostly young men sending children and women to the front-lines where all this is happening for the sake of media attention?
“Not true. Canada, a country nowhere near Hungary, took in 37,000 refugees. Nearly all Western countries, including the US, took in some refugees as well. (Ferenc Puskas and Sandor Kocsis emigrated to Spain, while Monty Python made fun of the Hungarian community in Britain in the early 1970s, which they would not have done it Britain had not taken them in.) Also, given that most of the neighbouring countries were also Communist (and only Austria wasn't), it is unlikely that the refugees would have sought refuge there.”
Ok then, fair enough.
“I would have thought that there were quite significant cultural differences between East and West during the Cold War. See also my answer to your first point.”
On the same scale as Middle East and West? I doubt it. I imagine East and West could have had similarities on certain things that neither would share with the Middle East.
“The problem with ghettos has nothing to do with ethnicity and everything to do with lack of economic opportunity.... long before Ireland had any immigration worth talking about.”
Well, I'm not referring to ghettos in Ireland (not any current ones anyway). Nor am I apparently referring to the kind of ghettos you're talking about. Look at the ghettos in the UK, Sweden and Germany. I think you'll find that is very much an ethnicity or religious issue. They're not shouting “Allahu Akbar” for the Hell of it.
“Not that the Germans will be too worried: they need the extra population as their own is in decline.”
Well, 2 problems with that.
1) Replacing your ethnic population with a foreign population isn't a solution. It's actually pointless. Countries and borders change, but an ethnic group dying out is pretty serious. If the population is completely replaced, why should the new population be bothered to keep the old country going? Pointless.
2) I think Germany will be worried when they find out that open-borders bring in all kinds of people, not just helpless refugees.
“Not everyone is able or willing to fight. That's why many countries with conscription allow for conscientious objection.”
Ok, that's fine. I can understand that. But there are a LOT of people coming to Europe, supposedly mostly from Syria. Do you not think that that's a bit much?
"Anatine, to be honest, I find your rhetoric on this thread to be rather unsettling, to say the least. You appear to be tarring every refugee with a very broad brush,”
No, I'm tarring migrants who are coming as economic immigrants or to cause trouble; though I admit I haven't done a good job of separating the genuine refugees from that group (probably because I, like everyone else, don't know who they are).
“without allowing for the religious persecution being carried out against both Christians and Shi'ite Muslims by ISIS and like-minded groups.”
I'm happy for genuine refugees to receive help, but in an orderly manner and in the hope they won't cause trouble.
“I'd imagine that similar things were said about Irish people during the Troubles by certain elements in Britain.”
I imagine there were, and I don't think that's the fault of British people for having such thoughts.
“You criticise me for making excuses for the refugees, but you appear to be quite happy to do likewise for the appalling over-reaction by the Hungarian government, which I think at this stage is bordering on xenophobia (note that Hungary at this point is not even allowing Arab Christians into the country under the new refugee laws there).”
Am I making excuses for Hungary? Maybe I am. Still, it makes a change from the rest of Europe who piled on top of Hungary (before the chaos we see today started happening), and basically undermining Hungary rather than admitting the obvious from the get-go that they needed a better plan than to just throw the doors open wide and shout for everyone to come in quickly. As mentioned above, no I don't think it's an overreaction. Perhaps Hungary would have been letting people in at some point had it not been for the rest of Europe shooting their mouths off instead of trying to think of an actual plan to deal with the problem first? The fact that there was a plan to meet 2 weeks after all this became big news says a lot about the preparation of the EU.
“To anyone else reading this, I think that the scale of the humanitarian crisis in Syria overrides concerns about national identity,”
National safety and well-being, too.
“and that the EU (and the international community at large) has a duty to take in as many refugees as is humanly possible,”
as long as they can keep control and they integrate
“to try and negotiate a peace in Syria and apply pressure the regime in Eritrea to roll back its draconian policies through arms sanctions or suspending non-humanitarian aid.”
This might have been an idea before certain governments started supplying weapons to the FSA and their like. It would have been difficult enough, but at least the only real threat might be ISIS then. Assad is not easily going to come to the table now. Not unless Russia somehow convinces him to.
“These refugees are people just like us, not savages who must be kept out.”
Genuine refugees, no. Not so sure about all the others though.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2015 14:22:45 GMT
For those of you who might feel that Young Ireland is being the voice of reason, while I am being a xenophobic/racist right-wing extremist, here is some video footage of what happened at at least 1 border fence.
You can decide for yourselves based on what you see, but here are 2 points that are apparent to me:
1) These young men are clearly acting in an aggressive and violent manner (which is ironically what Hungary is being accused of), so unless anyone expects the Hungarian police to pull the fences down on top of themselves and let the migrants literally walk all over them, then yes they were well within their rights to retaliate.
2) There are no women and children to be seen when this started off, yet the media are having a field day showing pictures of women and children suffering from the effects of tear gas? In the same video above, after the initial use of tear gas, we can see there are still some people continuing to approach the fence to cause trouble, including at least one person (in the video) with a child. So who is really responsible for children getting tear gassed then? The Hungarian police trying to control an unruly mob? Or the parents and women themselves who decide to approach the fence knowing full well what will happen (and also note that they are approaching the fence while projectiles are still being thrown at the Hungarian police). Also, for the record, I don't believe that police purposely shoot tear gas at children, and if you're being honest with yourself I don't think you do either Young Ireland.
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Post by Young Ireland on Sept 17, 2015 14:39:46 GMT
“Orban doesn't merely want to restrict the number of asylum seekers, he doesn't want to take any of them whatsoever. The government there is denying people asylum irrespective of their circumstances. The saddest thing is that most of them don't even want to settle in Hungary, so what is he worrying about?”
He's probably worried about the large numbers of them making a mess and causing trouble as they pass through. I can't imagine I'd be running a country properly if I constantly had to assign my police and whatever else to deal with migrants (and I'm not talking about protecting borders), not to mention the large crowds causing inconvenience for people living in Hungary trying to go about their daily lives. Well, perhaps if Hungary had not gone out of its way to express its hostility to the migrants in the way it has done, the crisis would be much less serious. “So you believe that any ill-treatment of the refugees is fully deserved?”
No, I believe just punishment for ill-behaviour is fully deserved. As long as it is proportionate to the crime, and the reports coming out of Hungary suggests otherwise. “Do you approve of the way that the Hungarian government has handled this, of how it is planning to erect razor wire fences not just with Serbia, but also with Romania and Croatia, both of which are EU states?”
Yes, I do. If they're going to create borders, then why half-heart it? You miss my point. The latter two are also EU countries and will eventually join Schengen. The principle of open borders is fundamental to the EU and your response suggests not only that Schengen should not exist (as reasonable point in itself, I will admit), but that the creation of militarised borders between friendly countries, a practice reserved for countries with a high likelihood of war, is a good thing in itself, as long as it keeps the migrants out.“Of how the police have deliberately offered pork sandwiches to the refugees, apparently purely for provocation?”
No, that's bad if true. It was true. The police in question kept offering them pork sandwiches in spite of requests not to and eventually suggested removeing the pork and eating the bread."Do you approve of the indiscriminate firing of tear gas and water cannon of men, women and children?”If the men are behaving badly? Yes. Only half a dozen of migrants were behaving badly. The police's response was totally disproportionate. Women and children? No. Do you approve of a crowd of mostly young men sending children and women to the front-lines where all this is happening for the sake of media attention? That is a very serious charge. Have you evidence to back up your assertion?“I would have thought that there were quite significant cultural differences between East and West during the Cold War. See also my answer to your first point.”
On the same scale as Middle East and West? I doubt it. I imagine East and West could have had similarities on certain things that neither would share with the Middle East. Other than Christianity, which also exists in the Middle East?“The problem with ghettos has nothing to do with ethnicity and everything to do with lack of economic opportunity.... long before Ireland had any immigration worth talking about.”
Well, I'm not referring to ghettos in Ireland (not any current ones anyway). Nor am I apparently referring to the kind of ghettos you're talking about. Look at the ghettos in the UK, Sweden and Germany. I think you'll find that is very much an ethnicity or religious issue. They're not shouting “Allahu Akbar” for the Hell of it. If you were to extend that logic, you would have to condemn the Catholic immigrants from Italy, Germany and Poland in late 19th century America, who did the exact same thing.“Not that the Germans will be too worried: they need the extra population as their own is in decline.”
Well, 2 problems with that. 1) Replacing your ethnic population with a foreign population isn't a solution. It's actually pointless. Countries and borders change, but an ethnic group dying out is pretty serious. If the population is completely replaced, why should the new population be bothered to keep the old country going? Pointless. Which assumes that ethnic nationalism is inherently good. It also implies that the newcomers are incapable of assimilating into society.2) I think Germany will be worried when they find out that open-borders bring in all kinds of people, not just helpless refugees. I'm not advocating totally open borders, I believe that people with a history of criminality without any attempt at reforming themselves should be deported. Everyone else ought to be given the benefit of the doubt.“Not everyone is able or willing to fight. That's why many countries with conscription allow for conscientious objection.”
Ok, that's fine. I can understand that. But there are a LOT of people coming to Europe, supposedly mostly from Syria. Do you not think that that's a bit much? There are 22 million people in Syria. That means that there will be a lot of refugees. So no, it's not too much."Anatine, to be honest, I find your rhetoric on this thread to be rather unsettling, to say the least. You appear to be tarring every refugee with a very broad brush,”
No, I'm tarring migrants who are coming as economic immigrants or to cause trouble; though I admit I haven't done a good job of separating the genuine refugees from that group (probably because I, like everyone else, don't know who they are). I accept that a small minority might be economic migrants seeking to jump on the bandwagon. That is no excuse to deny entry to the vast majority who are genuine refugees.“without allowing for the religious persecution being carried out against both Christians and Shi'ite Muslims by ISIS and like-minded groups.”
I'm happy for genuine refugees to receive help, but in an orderly manner and in the hope they won't cause trouble. Then we don't have a problem.“You criticise me for making excuses for the refugees, but you appear to be quite happy to do likewise for the appalling over-reaction by the Hungarian government, which I think at this stage is bordering on xenophobia (note that Hungary at this point is not even allowing Arab Christians into the country under the new refugee laws there).”
Am I making excuses for Hungary? Maybe I am. Still, it makes a change from the rest of Europe who piled on top of Hungary (before the chaos we see today started happening), and basically undermining Hungary rather than admitting the obvious from the get-go that they needed a better plan than to just throw the doors open wide and shout for everyone to come in quickly. As mentioned above, no I don't think it's an overreaction. Perhaps Hungary would have been letting people in at some point had it not been for the rest of Europe shooting their mouths off instead of trying to think of an actual plan to deal with the problem first? The fact that there was a plan to meet 2 weeks after all this became big news says a lot about the preparation of the EU. I agree that the EU response has been slow, but I don't buy your argument of "everyone else but Hungary is to blame". Orban has been stoking up anti-immigrant sentiment since long before the refugee crisis became an issue, putting up anti-immigrant posters in public places, and sending letters to every household in Hungary asking for suggestion on how to deal with migrants (which is wide open to manipulation by Jobbik for their own ends). As I said before, Fidesz had lost several by-elections to Jobbik before the crisis and ever since Orban took his stance, he has claimed back some of that lost support. And no, Antaine, Jobbik are not merely concerned nationalists, but are anti-semitic, anti-Roma and have links to some very unsavoury fascists and neo-nazi groups in Europe.“To anyone else reading this, I think that the scale of the humanitarian crisis in Syria overrides concerns about national identity,”
National safety and well-being, too. Well attacking migrants with indiscriminate force is a sure way to make them turn violent.“and that the EU (and the international community at large) has a duty to take in as many refugees as is humanly possible,”
as long as they can keep control and they integrate Which Hungary is making much more difficult.“to try and negotiate a peace in Syria and apply pressure the regime in Eritrea to roll back its draconian policies through arms sanctions or suspending non-humanitarian aid.”
This might have been an idea before certain governments started supplying weapons to the FSA and their like. It would have been difficult enough, but at least the only real threat might be ISIS then. Assad is not easily going to come to the table now. Not unless Russia somehow convinces him to. You said in your last post that the FSA had no links to ISIS. I might also add that Russia (a country whose leader Orban models himself on) has been arming the Assad regime for many years, so it's not exactly innocent in this either.“These refugees are people just like us, not savages who must be kept out.”
Genuine refugees, no. Not so sure about all the others though. But do you believe that any of the migrants are genuine, that's the question.
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Post by Young Ireland on Sept 17, 2015 14:51:12 GMT
For those of you who might feel that Young Ireland is being the voice of reason, while I am being a xenophobic/racist right-wing extremist, here is some video footage of what happened at at least 1 border fence. You do realise that that video is from Russia Today, which is effectively a mouthpiece for the Putin government, who would have their own reasons for wanting to demonise the refugees (not only because of their support for Assad, but also because of their own problems in the Northern Caucasus). Nevertheless, I condemn the violence in that video, and the person(s) who provoked it should be punished, but a) the Hungarian government brought this on themselves and b)RT would certainly have chosen that flashpoint to present ALL the refugees as thugs and terrorists. You can decide for yourselves based on what you see, but here are 2 points that are apparent to me: 1) These young men are clearly acting in an aggressive and violent manner (which is ironically what Hungary is being accused of), so unless anyone expects the Hungarian police to pull the fences down on top of themselves and let the migrants literally walk all over them, then yes they were well within their rights to retaliate. Well, suppose that you were fleeing a war and were desperate to head for safety, as the EU said today, you would not be deterred by any wall or sea. 2) There are no women and children to be seen when this started off, yet the media are having a field day showing pictures of women and children suffering from the effects of tear gas? In the same video above, after the initial use of tear gas, we can see there are still some people continuing to approach the fence to cause trouble, including at least one person (in the video) with a child. So who is really responsible for children getting tear gassed then? The Hungarian police trying to control an unruly mob? Or the parents and women themselves who decide to approach the fence knowing full well what will happen (and also note that they are approaching the fence while projectiles are still being thrown at the Hungarian police). Also, for the record, I don't believe that police purposely shoot tear gas at children, and if you're being honest with yourself I don't think you do either Young Ireland. So now you do a U-turn and say it's the refugees fault for letting their children near the tear gas. While it wasn't exactly prudent, that doesn't absolve the Hungarians of the need to exercise restraint and treat them humanely.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2015 16:10:19 GMT
“Well, perhaps if Hungary had not gone out of its way to express its hostility to the migrants in the way it has done, the crisis would be much less serious.”
Hungary wasn't originally hostile to them though, and even let them in. They were the ones who started to become demanding, and aggressive after not getting their way rather than being patient. If Hungary was so hostile to begin with, then why would they be gathering at Hungary's borders? Unusual logic, no?
“As long as it is proportionate to the crime, and the reports coming out of Hungary suggests otherwise.”
Young men trying to force their way through fences, and the Hungarians are supposed to do what?
“You miss my point. The latter two are also EU countries and will eventually join Schengen. The principle of open borders is fundamental to the EU and your response suggests not only that Schengen should not exist (as reasonable point in itself, I will admit), but that the creation of militarised borders between friendly countries, a practice reserved for countries with a high likelihood of war, is a good thing in itself, as long as it keeps the migrants out.”
I don't think fences between countries that should be friends is good in itself, but if migrants are going through those countries and then through yours then obviously you're going to build fences all around, and not just at select points.
“It was true. The police in question kept offering them pork sandwiches in spite of requests not to and eventually suggested removeing the pork and eating the bread.”
Fair enough. Your original source was a link to Reddit, so it wasn't exactly much to go on.
“Only half a dozen of migrants were behaving badly. The police's response was totally disproportionate.”
Seems like more in some of the videos I've seen, an no it didn't seem disproportionate.
“That is a very serious charge. Have you evidence to back up your assertion?”
Am I the only one in this thread who has made serious charges? In the video I posted above, as I think I already explained, there were not women and children at the front initially. They started appearing at the fence after the first retreat though, while the fighting was still going on.
“Other than Christianity, which also exists in the Middle East?”
I wasn't talking about religion, but even still Christianity is not the dominant religion of the Middle East, so yes.
“If you were to extend that logic, you would have to condemn the Catholic immigrants from Italy, Germany and Poland in late 19th century America, who did the exact same thing.”
Were the Italians, Polish and Germans put into those ghettos, or were they happy to clump together in order to make a point that they reject the culture/standards of the country they entered? But if they were acting like thugs to make their point, then they too should be condemned.
“Which assumes that ethnic nationalism is inherently good. It also implies that the newcomers are incapable of assimilating into society.”
No, I'm simply saying that trying to replace the population by bringing in new people rather than encouraging people to have more children is a bad solution. I know that is out of the hands of the government or migrants as to how many children people have. I am just stating it's not a good way of solving the problem.
“I'm not advocating totally open borders, I believe that people with a history of criminality without any attempt at reforming themselves should be deported. Everyone else ought to be given the benefit of the doubt.”
Assuming some kind of measures can be put in place to determine that people entering the country won't be a threat or a strain, I agree that they should be allowed to enter; though as I said before, I believe they should be monitored to an extend to be safe.
“There are 22 million people in Syria. That means that there will be a lot of refugees. So no, it's not too much.”
What I mean is, with that many people leaving Syria, do you not think it would have made more sense for Western troops to serve as defenders of neutral areas in Syria, rather than letting it escalate to this point?
“I accept that a small minority might be economic migrants seeking to jump on the bandwagon. That is no excuse to deny entry to the vast majority who are genuine refugees.”
Except we don't know that the vast majority of people are genuine refugees.
“I agree that the EU response has been slow, but I don't buy your argument of "everyone else but Hungary is to blame". Orban has been stoking up anti-immigrant sentiment since long before the refugee crisis became an issue, putting up anti-immigrant posters in public places, and sending letters to every household in Hungary asking for suggestion on how to deal with migrants (which is wide open to manipulation by Jobbik for their own ends). As I said before, Fidesz had lost several by-elections to Jobbik before the crisis and ever since Orban took his stance, he has claimed back some of that lost support. And no, Antaine, Jobbik are not merely concerned nationalists, but are anti-semitic, anti-Roma and have links to some very unsavoury fascists and neo-nazi groups in Europe.”
Well, there was one point when I believe Hungary were allowing in Christian Syrians. A narrow group I admit, but it was something. I am not saying everyone but Hungary is to blame, but it's a fact that Hungary has been the whipping boy, even though other countries are now starting to say “Sorry, we actually can't take any more.
When did I ever claim Jobbik are moderate, Young Ireland? I'm talking about ordinary Hungarian citizens, who you seem to think have had their voices high-jacked by Jobbik, or that they can't think for themselves.
“Well attacking migrants with indiscriminate force is a sure way to make them turn violent.”
I've made my point about this.
“Which Hungary is making much more difficult.”
After the migrants started being difficult themselves. Have you forgotten about the holding camps that they were originally taken to, which they then started breaking out of to make their own way?
“You said in your last post that the FSA had no links to ISIS. I might also add that Russia (a country whose leader Orban models himself on) has been arming the Assad regime for many years, so it's not exactly innocent in this either.”
I am aware that Russia arms the Assad regime. However, whether we like it or not, Assad is officially the leader of Syria.
“But do you believe that any of the migrants are genuine, that's the question.”
Yes, Young Ireland, I do. Unlike you though, I am not optimistic that so many of them are refugees.
“You do realise that that video is from Russia Today, which is effectively a mouthpiece for the Putin government, who would have their own reasons for wanting to demonise the refugees (not only because of their support for Assad, but also because of their own problems in the Northern Caucasus). Nevertheless, I condemn the violence in that video, and the person(s) who provoked it should be punished, but a) the Hungarian government brought this on themselves and b)RT would certainly have chosen that flashpoint to present ALL the refugees as thugs and terrorists.”
I am aware that RT is biased towards Russia and Russian interests, but this isn't an interview or a video with analysis. It's simply a recording of what's happening at this particular fence. Sorry Young Ireland, but I'm still not buying your argument that this was brought on the Hungarians by themselves. Also, you don't have to believe all migrants are violent by watching this video, but claiming that this is a single isolated incident is dishonest.
“Well, suppose that you were fleeing a war and were desperate to head for safety, as the EU said today, you would not be deterred by any wall or sea.”
First of all, as said before, they have been through several safe countries before getting to Hungary. Second, if I was trying to enter a safe country, true I would do what I could to get in, but no it's not true that I would attack the police of that country especially when the odds of that helping me in any way are so slim. Nothing was going to be achieved through this behaviour. The migrants (most of them) are not children, and could have figured this out for themselves.
“So now you do a U-turn and say it's the refugees fault for letting their children near the tear gas. While it wasn't exactly prudent, that doesn't absolve the Hungarians of the need to exercise restraint and treat them humanely.”
How have I done a U-Turn? At what point have I contradicted myself? If I have then I will apologise, but I think you're twisting my words Young Ireland. Young Ireland, you have been accusing the Hungarian police of being untamed brutes, but in regards to the migrants putting their own children in harm's way all you can say is “it wan't exactly prudent”. Are you suggesting that the migrants are deserving of some mercy points?
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Post by Young Ireland on Sept 17, 2015 17:28:00 GMT
“Well, perhaps if Hungary had not gone out of its way to express its hostility to the migrants in the way it has done, the crisis would be much less serious.”Hungary wasn't originally hostile to them though, and even let them in. They were the ones who started to become demanding, and aggressive after not getting their way rather than being patient. If Hungary was so hostile to begin with, then why would they be gathering at Hungary's borders? Unusual logic, no? Read my last post. Viktor Orban made it quite clear what he thought of them long before the present crisis erupted.“As long as it is proportionate to the crime, and the reports coming out of Hungary suggests otherwise.”Young men trying to force their way through fences, and the Hungarians are supposed to do what? Stand firm at least. No need to over-react.“You miss my point. The latter two are also EU countries and will eventually join Schengen. The principle of open borders is fundamental to the EU and your response suggests not only that Schengen should not exist (as reasonable point in itself, I will admit), but that the creation of militarised borders between friendly countries, a practice reserved for countries with a high likelihood of war, is a good thing in itself, as long as it keeps the migrants out.”I don't think fences between countries that should be friends is good in itself, but if migrants are going through those countries and then through yours then obviously you're going to build fences all around, and not just at select points. Returning to Cold War-style fences is not a solution though.“Only half a dozen of migrants were behaving badly. The police's response was totally disproportionate.” Seems like more in some of the videos I've seen, an no it didn't seem disproportionate. Maybe, but that doesn't exonerate the police from treating the migrants in a humane manner.“That is a very serious charge. Have you evidence to back up your assertion?”Am I the only one in this thread who has made serious charges? Such as? In the video I posted above, as I think I already explained, there were not women and children at the front initially. They started appearing at the fence after the first retreat though, while the fighting was still going on. Perhaps because the police would be less likely to use brutality towards them?“If you were to extend that logic, you would have to condemn the Catholic immigrants from Italy, Germany and Poland in late 19th century America, who did the exact same thing.”Were the Italians, Polish and Germans put into those ghettos, or were they happy to clump together in order to make a point that they reject the culture/standards of the country they entered? But if they were acting like thugs to make their point, then they too should be condemned. The latter, though mainly for cultural reasons, ditto the Muslims in Europe. What about the Mafia in the 1920s and 30s? And yet we don't hear calls to all Italians to be deported en masse from the USA.“Which assumes that ethnic nationalism is inherently good. It also implies that the newcomers are incapable of assimilating into society.”No, I'm simply saying that trying to replace the population by bringing in new people rather than encouraging people to have more children is a bad solution. I know that is out of the hands of the government or migrants as to how many children people have. I am just stating it's not a good way of solving the problem. Perhaps, but America is still America in spite of the large amount of immigration there over the years.“I'm not advocating totally open borders, I believe that people with a history of criminality without any attempt at reforming themselves should be deported. Everyone else ought to be given the benefit of the doubt.”Assuming some kind of measures can be put in place to determine that people entering the country won't be a threat or a strain, I agree that they should be allowed to enter; though as I said before, I believe they should be monitored to an extend to be safe. I'm glad; surely then you would agree that Hungary shifting the crisis onto Croatia is rather selfish. Europe needs to work together. BTW the Croatian response to this has been far more restrained in spite of this.“There are 22 million people in Syria. That means that there will be a lot of refugees. So no, it's not too much.”What I mean is, with that many people leaving Syria, do you not think it would have made more sense for Western troops to serve as defenders of neutral areas in Syria, rather than letting it escalate to this point? I agree, but we are where we are.“I accept that a small minority might be economic migrants seeking to jump on the bandwagon. That is no excuse to deny entry to the vast majority who are genuine refugees.”Except we don't know that the vast majority of people are genuine refugees. Not an excuse to assume that they are all economic migrants.“I agree that the EU response has been slow, but I don't buy your argument of "everyone else but Hungary is to blame". Orban has been stoking up anti-immigrant sentiment since long before the refugee crisis became an issue, putting up anti-immigrant posters in public places, and sending letters to every household in Hungary asking for suggestion on how to deal with migrants (which is wide open to manipulation by Jobbik for their own ends). As I said before, Fidesz had lost several by-elections to Jobbik before the crisis and ever since Orban took his stance, he has claimed back some of that lost support. And no, Antaine, Jobbik are not merely concerned nationalists, but are anti-semitic, anti-Roma and have links to some very unsavoury fascists and neo-nazi groups in Europe.”Well, there was one point when I believe Hungary were allowing in Christian Syrians. A narrow group I admit, but it was something. I am not saying everyone but Hungary is to blame, but it's a fact that Hungary has been the whipping boy, even though other countries are now starting to say “Sorry, we actually can't take any more. Becuase Hungary, by refusing to play their part, has made things even worse for the other frontier countries.When did I ever claim Jobbik are moderate, Young Ireland? I'm talking about ordinary Hungarian citizens, who you seem to think have had their voices high-jacked by Jobbik, or that they can't think for themselves. I never said you did claim that, though I did wonder if you knew how extreme Jobbik actually were, and you did refer to "ultra-nationalists" as if they were not really. E.g.:
Which part isn't right? Orban taking a tougher stance on migrants to - as you see it - peddle to "ultra-nationalists", or the fact that people in Hungary don't want an uncontrolled number of migrants entering their country. “Which Hungary is making much more difficult.”After the migrants started being difficult themselves. Only after being provoked. Have you forgotten about the holding camps which were totally inadequate that they were originally taken to, which they then started breaking out of to make their own way? “You said in your last post that the FSA had no links to ISIS. I might also add that Russia (a country whose leader Orban models himself on) has been arming the Assad regime for many years, so it's not exactly innocent in this either.”I am aware that Russia arms the Assad regime. However, whether we like it or not, Assad is officially the leader of Syria. And Russia's alliance with the Assad regime is a major reason why the civil war is still going on, and why the migrants are coming to Europe.“But do you believe that any of the migrants are genuine, that's the question.”Yes, Young Ireland, I do. Unlike you though, I am not optimistic that so many of them are refugees. OK, so what percentage do you think are genuine?“You do realise that that video is from Russia Today, which is effectively a mouthpiece for the Putin government, who would have their own reasons for wanting to demonise the refugees (not only because of their support for Assad, but also because of their own problems in the Northern Caucasus). Nevertheless, I condemn the violence in that video, and the person(s) who provoked it should be punished, but a) the Hungarian government brought this on themselves and b)RT would certainly have chosen that flashpoint to present ALL the refugees as thugs and terrorists.”I am aware that RT is biased towards Russia and Russian interests, but this isn't an interview or a video with analysis. It's simply a recording of what's happening at this particular fence. Yes, but why single out that particular fence?Sorry Young Ireland, but I'm still not buying your argument that this was brought on the Hungarians by themselves. Also, you don't have to believe all migrants are violent by watching this video, but claiming that this is a single isolated incident is dishonest. If you treat like animals, they will act like animals.“Well, suppose that you were fleeing a war and were desperate to head for safety, as the EU said today, you would not be deterred by any wall or sea.”First of all, as said before, they have been through several safe countries before getting to Hungary. Second, if I was trying to enter a safe country, true I would do what I could to get in, but no it's not true that I would attack the police of that country especially when the odds of that helping me in any way are so slim. Nothing was going to be achieved through this behaviour. The migrants (most of them) are not children, and could have figured this out for themselves. The UN does not consider Serbia to be a safe country. Turkey can't cope, and the Arab states aren't pulling their weight.“So now you do a U-turn and say it's the refugees fault for letting their children near the tear gas. While it wasn't exactly prudent, that doesn't absolve the Hungarians of the need to exercise restraint and treat them humanely.”How have I done a U-Turn? At what point have I contradicted myself? I might have misunderstood you. I thought that you were criticising Hungary there, I didn't think that you would try and turn it onto the migrants.If I have then I will apologise, but I think you're twisting my words Young Ireland. Young Ireland, you have been accusing the Hungarian police of being untamed brutes I didn't, I said their response was disproportionate. There's a difference., but in regards to the migrants putting their own children in harm's way all you can say is “it wan't exactly prudent”. Perhaps they thought the police would be more considerate than to fire tear gas at children. Are you suggesting that the migrants are deserving of some mercy points? Well yes, considering that they have trekked thousands of miles to escape a bloody civil war.
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Post by maolsheachlann on Sept 17, 2015 19:17:58 GMT
I don't really feel qualified to comment on this thread as you have both paid closer attention to the situation than me. But speaking as someone who feels rather conflicted about the situation, I must say I think you both make very compelling points and points that need to be made.
Insofar as I agree with Antaine, I do feel that there is endless excuses being made for the shenanigans of many of these refugees/immigrants, and feel frustration at the term 'refugee' being used for someone who has reached a safe country, and I also feel that refuge should be a temporary solution and one that is not intended to be long-term-- surely such ethnic disruption only causes trouble down the line?
Insofar as I agree with Young Ireland, the question I ask is: What is the worse mistake to make? To be naive and taken advantage of, or through hard-heartedness and suspicion not to help alleviate misery (or even, potentailly, loss of life) where we might have? And isn't it a bit tough on countries neighbouring a crisis zone to have to accept all the refugees, doesn't the community of nations have a responsibility?
I think it's important to accept that people can disagree in good faith; I am myself rather divided. As I say, I am less informed than both of you.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2015 9:26:25 GMT
“Read my last post. Viktor Orban made it quite clear what he thought of them long before the present crisis erupted.”
I already read it. Regardless of what Orban said, they were still allowed into the country. I highly doubt the Hungarians thought that the best idea would be to let people into their country just so they could mess with them.
“Stand firm at least. No need to over-react.”
I don't know about you Young Ireland, but I'm not sure if I would have the stamina to stand at a fence with a riot shield all day, while being kicked and having stuff thrown at me.
“Returning to Cold War-style fences is not a solution though.”
But you think the solution is for the fences not to exist at all. The Hungarians do, to keep migrants out. What else would you expect the Hungarians to do to keep migrants out? Please don't say that you wouldn't keep the migrants out at all. I already know that. The Hungarians aren't you, so what would you expect them to do that seems less dramatic?
“Maybe, but that doesn't exonerate the police from treating the migrants in a humane manner.”
I imagine it's a bit of a challenge to treat people humanely when they are acting aggressive and you are trying to keep the situation under control as best you can.
“Such as?”
Err, everything you've said about Hungary, unless you think it's all very casual to accuse police officers of brutality.
“Perhaps because the police would be less likely to use brutality towards them?”
You're saying they're not? Actually, you make this point again below. I'll reply to it there.
“The latter, though mainly for cultural reasons, ditto the Muslims in Europe.”
Right, so they refused to integrate. That's a bad thing then, right? But did the other cultures go around harassing and wishing death upon the rest of the population like some Muslims in Europe? If they did then I have no sympathy for them either. Also, keep in mind that some of these ghettos wish to live by Sharia Law instead of local laws (or at least allow Sharia Law to override local laws when they conflict.
“What about the Mafia in the 1920s and 30s? And yet we don't hear calls to all Italians to be deported en masse from the USA.”
The Mafia are a somewhat exclusive group who make money through criminal activities. Islamism can include absolutely anybody, and has a far more violent mindset than that of the Mafia. The Mafia target people who they feel have wronged them, Islamists see anyone who isn't Muslim (or the right kind of Muslim) as fair game. That's not playing down the notoriety of the Mafia, but that's not the best comparison.
“Perhaps, but America is still America in spite of the large amount of immigration there over the years.”
America was practically built on immigration though.
“I'm glad; surely then you would agree that Hungary shifting the crisis onto Croatia is rather selfish. Europe needs to work together.”
I do agree Europe needs to work together, which is why I criticise people like Merkel for not consulting other countries and for telling everyone to come on into Europe. How else did she think they would get to Germany?
“BTW the Croatian response to this has been far more restrained in spite of this.”
Not really. They basically admitted they didn't have the power to control the situation, and so ordered their officers to stand down and let the migrants go where they want.
“Not an excuse to assume that they are all economic migrants.”
No, but not an excuse to assume the complete opposite either.
“Becuase Hungary, by refusing to play their part, has made things even worse for the other frontier countries.”
Again, they had originally been helping until they had too many entering, so perhaps Germany should also take some responsibility. Also, as far as I'm aware, the migrants had only (or mostly) been making their way through Hungary until it set up fences.
“I never said you did claim that, though I did wonder if you knew how extreme Jobbik actually were, and you did refer to "ultra-nationalists" as if they were not really. E.g.:
Which part isn't right? Orban taking a tougher stance on migrants to - as you see it - peddle to "ultra-nationalists", or the fact that people in Hungary don't want an uncontrolled number of migrants entering their country.”
Again, because you speak as if Jobbik are the only ones with the power to vote, and that anyone who has any kind of problem with migrants is an ultra-nationalist. Have you thought that some people are honest-to-God citizens with genuine concerns that they feel aren't being addressed, and so turn to more right-leaning groups as a result?
“Only after being provoked.”
Not from what I've seen. How were they provoked by guards standing at a fence?
“Have you forgotten about the holding camps which were totally inadequate”
I like how you talk about bias when I used a comment-less video from RT, but then you used a left-leaning site like BBC as a source.
I watched the video anyway, and yes it could have been organised much better, but saying that they were “treated like animals”[BBC] is highly overly-dramatic, and saying that it “reminded me of a concentration camp”[one of the recorders] is just down-right disgraceful.
They should have organised a queue better (if they didn't already try), but it's not like they just launched the food at people as if they were trying to hurt them, which is what you would assume at times from what's being said. Maybe they thought it would save time to throw it to people at the back? Also, if they were treated like animals they wouldn't have handed food to them the way they did, nor would they have communicated with them at all. You can see from the body language of the police officers they are trying to communicate with them. As I say, it could have been organised much better. But what does the woman mean about people who catch food being “lucky”? Is she suggesting that anyone who didn't catch was left to go hungry?
In regards to camps being inadequate, did you expect the Hungarians to have nice, cosy rooms and beds for a large number of migrants who just show up?
“And Russia's alliance with the Assad regime is a major reason why the civil war is still going on, and why the migrants are coming to Europe.”
If Russia didn't help Assad, and the regime was over-thrown, do you really believe peace would be restored and this wouldn't be happening? Apparently ISIS control most of Syria now. If Assad falls, I would imagine that even more people will flee the country. Even if they hate each other, the different factions that oppose ISIS are creating a dilemma for ISIS who have to fight them on several fronts. If Assad falls, everything become a lot easier for them.
“OK, so what percentage do you think are genuine?”
Unlike most people, I don't pretend to know.
“Yes, but why single out that particular fence?”
Well, as far as I'm aware, that's the fence that other news crews were at too. Also, why not that particular fence? Perhaps you're trying to make me say that maybe there aren't scenes quite like it at other fences? Alright, I have no problem admitting that could be the case.
“If you treat like animals, they will act like animals.”
And vice-versa. You've re-made this point several times now. It's not going anywhere.
“The UN does not consider Serbia to be a safe country. Turkey can't cope, and the Arab states aren't pulling their weight.”
Yet Serbia has criticised Hungary's response to migrants, which would suggest it is hardly unsafe either, wouldn't it? Who in their right mind is going to try to mess with a large number of migrants? Also, perhaps more pressure should be put on the other Arab states to do their part. For e.g., if we trade with them then why not economic sanctions?
“I might have misunderstood you. I thought that you were criticising Hungary there, I didn't think that you would try and turn it onto the migrants.”
No Young Ireland, I made it blatantly clear that approaching the fence with children, alongside people who are attacking the police, is incredibly stupid.
“I didn't, I said their response was disproportionate. There's a difference.”
You have said that the Hungarians have used more force than they should, hence they can't control themselves. That's not much of a difference.
“Perhaps they thought the police would be more considerate than to fire tear gas at children.”
I don't see police firing tear-gas at children. I see police firing tear-gas at trouble-makers, while people bring their children into the thick of it. I'll put it this way: if you had a child and witnessed what had happened at the fence moments before, would you really bring them up to the fence, especially while there are still people throwing stuff?
“Well yes, considering that they have trekked thousands of miles to escape a bloody civil war.”
So if migrants behave badly, that's perfectly acceptable because they came from far away country that's in a state of war? Do you not think it's entirely hypocritical to travel across Europe claiming to be running from violence, and then acting violently when you don't get what you want?
Maolsheachalnn
“What is the worse mistake to make? To be naive and taken advantage of, or through hard-heartedness and suspicion not to help alleviate misery (or even, potentailly, loss of life) where we might have?”
It depends on the extent to which you are taken advantage of. You lose a bit of money from fake-refugees or vandalism; fine, it's material, it can be replaced. But if people start getting assaulted or murdered, if innocent women start getting raped in the streets, then we have a major problem that I won't stand for.**
“And isn't it a bit tough on countries neighbouring a crisis zone to have to accept all the refugees, doesn't the community of nations have a responsibility?”
Yes, you're right. I agree with this. However, not all countries close by are doing their share. One that I hear come up a lot is Saudia Arabia. They have plenty of shelter there that I believe is around the Mecca region for pilgrims. From what I understand, SA has no interest in taking in refugees, but is more than happy to pay for the building of mosques in whatever countries they go to. That says a lot about SA, no?
**For the record, this is my biggest concern with what is going on here; especially rape.
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Post by Young Ireland on Sept 18, 2015 13:21:28 GMT
“Read my last post. Viktor Orban made it quite clear what he thought of them long before the present crisis erupted.”
I already read it. Regardless of what Orban said, they were still allowed into the country. I highly doubt the Hungarians thought that the best idea would be to let people into their country just so they could mess with them. All the while being presented by the Hungarian government as disease-carrying parasites.“Stand firm at least. No need to over-react.”
I don't know about you Young Ireland, but I'm not sure if I would have the stamina to stand at a fence with a riot shield all day, while being kicked and having stuff thrown at me. It's a better response than lashing out at them.“Returning to Cold War-style fences is not a solution though.”
But you think the solution is for the fences not to exist at all. The Hungarians do, to keep migrants out. What else would you expect the Hungarians to do to keep migrants out? Please don't say that you wouldn't keep the migrants out at all. I already know that. The Hungarians aren't you, so what would you expect them to do that seems less dramatic? At the very least obey international law and pull their weight alon g with every other country in Europe.“Maybe, but that doesn't exonerate the police from treating the migrants in a humane manner.”
I imagine it's a bit of a challenge to treat people humanely when they are acting aggressive and you are trying to keep the situation under control as best you can. Doesn't mean that there is no point in even trying.“Such as?”
Err, everything you've said about Hungary, unless you think it's all very casual to accuse police officers of brutality. But that is precisely what has been happening. The excesses for the Hungarians are documented in many places online for all to see. “The latter, though mainly for cultural reasons, ditto the Muslims in Europe.”
Right, so they refused to integrate. That's a bad thing then, right? But did the other cultures go around harassing and wishing death upon the rest of the population like some Muslims in Europe? If they did then I have no sympathy for them either. Also, keep in mind that some of these ghettos wish to live by Sharia Law instead of local laws (or at least allow Sharia Law to override local laws when they conflict. Not necessarily, as long as they are not harming anyone else. I don't believe that Sharia should be adopted in this country or anywhere else. But surely religious freedom applies to Muslims as well, provided they stay within the law?“What about the Mafia in the 1920s and 30s? And yet we don't hear calls to all Italians to be deported en masse from the USA.”The Mafia are a somewhat exclusive group who make money through criminal activities. Islamism can include absolutely anybody, and has a far more violent mindset than that of the Mafia. The Mafia target people who they feel have wronged them, Islamists see anyone who isn't Muslim (or the right kind of Muslim) as fair game. That's not playing down the notoriety of the Mafia, but that's not the best comparison. Very few Muslims hold the views you ascribe to them. They're not all Sufists or Wahhabists. In fact many of the Muslim refugees left because they feared religious persecution from ISIS.“Perhaps, but America is still America in spite of the large amount of immigration there over the years.”
America was practically built on immigration though. Excatly, why can't other countries be?“I'm glad; surely then you would agree that Hungary shifting the crisis onto Croatia is rather selfish. Europe needs to work together.”
I do agree Europe needs to work together, which is why I criticise people like Merkel for not consulting other countries and for telling everyone to come on into Europe. How else did she think they would get to Germany? Yes, I don't like the way that Merkel backtracked on Sunday. But that is all the more reason for countries to co-operate, not simply close the borders and leave the problem to neighbours less able to cope with them.“BTW the Croatian response to this has been far more restrained in spite of this.”Not really. They basically admitted they didn't have the power to control the situation, and so ordered their officers to stand down and let the migrants go where they want. Which is exactly my point.“Not an excuse to assume that they are all economic migrants.”No, but not an excuse to assume the complete opposite either. But you appear to be debating on the assumption that the vast majority of them are cowards, criminals and economic migrants, which is a gross generalisation. I bet you wouldn't accept the Irish being presented as incompetent drunkards, for instance. I know I wouldn't.“Becuase Hungary, by refusing to play their part, has made things even worse for the other frontier countries.”Again, they had originally been helping until they had too many entering, so perhaps Germany should also take some responsibility. Also, as far as I'm aware, the migrants had only (or mostly) been making their way through Hungary until it set up fences. “I never said you did claim that, though I did wonder if you knew how extreme Jobbik actually were, and you did refer to "ultra-nationalists" as if they were not really. E.g.:
Which part isn't right? Orban taking a tougher stance on migrants to - as you see it - peddle to "ultra-nationalists", or the fact that people in Hungary don't want an uncontrolled number of migrants entering their country.”
Again, because you speak as if Jobbik are the only ones with the power to vote, and that anyone who has any kind of problem with migrants is an ultra-nationalist. Have you thought that some people are honest-to-God citizens with genuine concerns that they feel aren't being addressed, and so turn to more right-leaning groups as a result? That is a great simplification of my argument. You don't seem to want to accept that Orban has been stoking tensions for months before this came a serious issue, claiming that all the migrants are economic migrants or terrorists, and claiming that they carry contagious diseases (hence why the police are wearing protective masks). I'm sure you agree that such statements are reckless and out-of-line.“Only after being provoked.”Not from what I've seen. How were they provoked by guards standing at a fence? Because they were being denied passage after Merkel welcomed them with open arms?“Have you forgotten about the holding camps which were totally inadequate”I like how you talk about bias when I used a comment-less video from RT, but then you used a left-leaning site like BBC as a source. I watched the video anyway, and yes it could have been organised much better, but saying that they were “treated like animals”[BBC] is highly overly-dramatic, and saying that it “reminded me of a concentration camp”[one of the recorders] is just down-right disgraceful. I agree that the concentration camp analogy was a bad one and in poor taste. At the same time, it doesn't cost much to set up a makeshift canteen and feed then like humans.They should have organised a queue better (if they didn't already try), but it's not like they just launched the food at people as if they were trying to hurt them, which is what you would assume at times from what's being said. Maybe they thought it would save time to throw it to people at the back? Also, if they were treated like animals they wouldn't have handed food to them the way they did, nor would they have communicated with them at all. You can see from the body language of the police officers they are trying to communicate with them. As I say, it could have been organised much better. But what does the woman mean about people who catch food being “lucky”? Is she suggesting that anyone who didn't catch was left to go hungry? Yes.In regards to camps being inadequate, did you expect the Hungarians to have nice, cosy rooms and beds for a large number of migrants who just show up? I'll ignore the sarcasm there and say that it doesn't cost the earth to treat people humanely.“And Russia's alliance with the Assad regime is a major reason why the civil war is still going on, and why the migrants are coming to Europe.”If Russia didn't help Assad, and the regime was over-thrown, do you really believe peace would be restored and this wouldn't be happening? Apparently ISIS control most of Syria now. If Assad falls, I would imagine that even more people will flee the country. Even if they hate each other, the different factions that oppose ISIS are creating a dilemma for ISIS who have to fight them on several fronts. If Assad falls, everything become a lot easier for them. ISIS didn't enter the fray until 2013. There was two years to negotiate some sort of settlement, yet Russia and China kept blocking any attempt at removing Assad. Don't forget as well that Assad used chemical weapons (amongst other things) against his own people.“OK, so what percentage do you think are genuine?”Unlike most people, I don't pretend to know. Evading the question? I see.. “Yes, but why single out that particular fence?”Well, as far as I'm aware, that's the fence that other news crews were at too. Also, why not that particular fence? Perhaps you're trying to make me say that maybe there aren't scenes quite like it at other fences? Alright, I have no problem admitting that could be the case. Exactly.“If you treat like animals, they will act like animals.”And vice-versa. You've re-made this point several times now. It's not going anywhere. I can say the same about your attempts to defend the Hungarians' handling of the situation.“The UN does not consider Serbia to be a safe country. Turkey can't cope, and the Arab states aren't pulling their weight.”Yet Serbia has criticised Hungary's response to migrants, which would suggest it is hardly unsafe either, wouldn't it? Who in their right mind is going to try to mess with a large number of migrants? Also, perhaps more pressure should be put on the other Arab states to do their part. For e.g., if we trade with them then why not economic sanctions? I agree that more pressure ought to be placed on the Arab world. How would Serbia's reaction suggest that it is a safe country for migrants?“I might have misunderstood you. I thought that you were criticising Hungary there, I didn't think that you would try and turn it onto the migrants.”No Young Ireland, I made it blatantly clear that approaching the fence with children, alongside people who are attacking the police, is incredibly stupid. Yes it is ill-advised, but surely the onus is on the police to restrain themselves.“I didn't, I said their response was disproportionate. There's a difference.”You have said that the Hungarians have used more force than they should, hence they can't control themselves. That's not much of a difference. Are you denying that the Hungarians used excessive force?“Perhaps they thought the police would be more considerate than to fire tear gas at children.”I don't see police firing tear-gas at children. I see police firing tear-gas at trouble-makers, while people bring their children into the thick of it. I'll put it this way: if you had a child and witnessed what had happened at the fence moments before, would you really bring them up to the fence, especially while there are still people throwing stuff? I agree that it's ill-advised, but one would think that the police would re-consider their tactics.“Well yes, considering that they have trekked thousands of miles to escape a bloody civil war.”So if migrants behave badly, that's perfectly acceptable because they came from far away country that's in a state of war? Do you not think it's entirely hypocritical to travel across Europe claiming to be running from violence, and then acting violently when you don't get what you want? Have you ever fled a war situation, Antaine? I haven't.Maolsheachalnn“What is the worse mistake to make? To be naive and taken advantage of, or through hard-heartedness and suspicion not to help alleviate misery (or even, potentailly, loss of life) where we might have?” It depends on the extent to which you are taken advantage of. You lose a bit of money from fake-refugees or vandalism; fine, it's material, it can be replaced. But if people start getting assaulted or murdered, if innocent women start getting raped in the streets, then we have a major problem that I won't stand for.** I don't stand for that either, but that's not an excuse to deprive the migrants of the presumption of innocence. Now if any of the refugees have a record of sexual violence, they ought to be treated just like any other sex offender. But that does not give us the right to assume that every Muslim as a potential criminal.“And isn't it a bit tough on countries neighbouring a crisis zone to have to accept all the refugees, doesn't the community of nations have a responsibility?”Yes, you're right. I agree with this. However, not all countries close by are doing their share. Like Hungary. One that I hear come up a lot is Saudia Arabia. They have plenty of shelter there that I believe is around the Mecca region for pilgrims. From what I understand, SA has no interest in taking in refugees, but is more than happy to pay for the building of mosques in whatever countries they go to. That says a lot about SA, no? Indeed, none of it good. I think it's time that the US broke it's military alliance with the Saudis unless the latter stop supporting ISIS.**For the record, this is my biggest concern with what is going on here; especially rape.
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Post by Young Ireland on Sept 18, 2015 14:08:41 GMT
In fairness to the police, I should note that according to Hungarian Free Press (which I strongly recommend to anyone wanting to know more about events in Hungary), many of the police have been on straight 27-hour shifts with no access to water and napping in corn fields. HFP believe that far worse violence may be on the horizon. www.hungarianfreepress.com/
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2015 22:40:18 GMT
“All the while being presented by the Hungarian government as disease-carrying parasites.”
Young Ireland, I have not seen anything about Orban calling them parasites, but even assuming the worst is true about what migrants might have been called, that is not a proper response to the point I made. The fact still stands that they were originally let into Hungary.
“It's a better response than lashing out at them.”
Like damn you would expect someone to stand there all day getting their shield kicked and having projectiles thrown. That's all well and good if you're only doing it for an hour or 2, but for hours on end?
“At the very least obey international law and pull their weight alon g with every other country in Europe.”
Wasn't it other countries that didn't obey the law, and stated that asylum rules had “collapsed”?
“Doesn't mean that there is no point in even trying.”
How do you know they didn't? It's like poking a dog with a stick. Even if it's a patient dog, you're going to annoy it eventually.
“But that is precisely what has been happening. The excesses for the Hungarians are documented in many places online for all to see.”
I tried searching for Hungarian police brutality, but didn't find much. Then again, considering you and I have very different views on whether something should be considered justified force, maybe that's not surprising.
“Not necessarily, as long as they are not harming anyone else. I don't believe that Sharia should be adopted in this country or anywhere else. But surely religious freedom applies to Muslims as well, provided they stay within the law?”
Freedom of religion, of course. But from the sounds of it, Sharia Law doesn't always go hand-in-hand with Western laws.
“Very few Muslims hold the views you ascribe to them. They're not all Sufists or Wahhabists. In fact many of the Muslim refugees left because they feared religious persecution from ISIS.”
I am aware of the different denominations of Islam, hence why I used the term Islamism instead of just Islam, and also mentioned the wrong kind of Muslims being fair game.
“Excatly, why can't other countries be?”
Most European countries (if not all) are already pretty well established, where as the US was still expanding at the time. I think it would have been easier for the different groups to come together to make something greater, whereas you can't get that so much with European countries that are already well established.
“Yes, I don't like the way that Merkel backtracked on Sunday. But that is all the more reason for countries to co-operate, not simply close the borders and leave the problem to neighbours less able to cope with them.”
Actually Young Ireland, I do agree with you to an extent, and feel that at the very least Hungary should try to create a passageway of sorts for the migrants to get to Germany, if nothing else. If the Hungarians aren't too trusting of the Germans, then they should ask them to clarify how many they can take, before escorting the migrants to the border where the Germans can collect them and take care of them.
“Which is exactly my point.”
That's not showing restraint though Young Ireland, that's showing defeat. There were actually clashes in Croatia between police and migrants – and if the pictures are to be believed, it looks like some migrants were knocked out cold – and it was only when the police became overwhelmed that it was seen as pointless to even bother, and they were told to stand down.
“But you appear to be debating on the assumption that the vast majority of them are cowards, criminals and economic migrants, which is a gross generalisation. I bet you wouldn't accept the Irish being presented as incompetent drunkards, for instance. I know I wouldn't.”
Yes, you are right, and that was unfair of me. I tend to try to see the worst possible outcome in situations. According to Croatian numbers, of the people registered there, 60% are considered refugees while the other 40% are considered economic immigrants. I'm not trying to argue that that is reflective of the situation as a whole, and that only 60% of the entire migrant movement is genuinely refugee; I just thought I would mention that situation to show that there are a good few.
“That is a great simplification of my argument. You don't seem to want to accept that Orban has been stoking tensions for months before this came a serious issue, claiming that all the migrants are economic migrants or terrorists, and claiming that they carry contagious diseases (hence why the police are wearing protective masks). I'm sure you agree that such statements are reckless and out-of-line.”
Young Ireland, I don't care for defending Orban, so I have no problem admitting he is a bad person if he goes around calling migrants everything under the sun. My point is that, from my own understanding of what you said, you seem to think that Orban and Jobbik have this incredible influence over the population of Hungary. Sure, political groups or persons can persuade people to a belief, but I think you might be overestimating their power a bit.
“Because they were being denied passage after Merkel welcomed them with open arms?”
How can they be provoked to violence just because their path is blocked? If the Hungarian police had started to push them back from where they were originally then maybe, but I imagine the fences were up before the migrants got there. It seems the provokers in this case are the migrants. I wouldn't be provoked to attack someone just because they stood in my way; annoyed or irritated, but not provoked to violence. If somebody started shoving me and throwing things at me, then I'd be provoked.
“I agree that the concentration camp analogy was a bad one and in poor taste. At the same time, it doesn't cost much to set up a makeshift canteen and feed then like humans.”
Like I said, I agree it could have been organised much better.
“Yes.”
Is this a fact then? I've seen footage of migrants denying food and water being given to them, but I haven't heard of migrants being rounded up and left to starve or thirst. I've seen migrants say they are hungray and thirsty, but those ones weren't in holding areas.
“I'll ignore the sarcasm there and say that it doesn't cost the earth to treat people humanely.”
I'm not talking about money, I'm talking about time. My point is that you can't just get hundreds or thousands of beds and shelters put together in an adequate way in a short space of time.
“ISIS didn't enter the fray until 2013. There was two years to negotiate some sort of settlement, yet Russia and China kept blocking any attempt at removing Assad. Don't forget as well that Assad used chemical weapons (amongst other things) against his own people.”
It might have also been an idea to think of negotiating before sending weapons to anyone who claimed to be part of the rebel side. That interference made things difficult. As far as I'm aware, who actually used chemical weapons is up for debate.
Also, I don't believe that even had Assad been removed it would have solved the problem. Look at Libya, which is somewhat divided by tribal loyalty from what I'm aware. I don't think ISIS would be much worse off had Assad been removed sooner. The West seems to think that once the dictator is gone, they can just leave and everything will take care of itself. Our leaders get involved in these situations, but then don't have the follow-through to see them conclude.
“Evading the question? I see..”
How is that evading the question? I gave a blunt answer, which is that I don't know. Would you rather I smugly pulled some random numbers from the top of my head? What's your estimate then?
“Exactly.”
Fine, but that doesn't mean that there aren't similar scenes going on in other places. In fact, it would be pretty odd if that was the only place. Even in Croatia, Syrian and Afghani migrants have been fighting with each other, which I suppose is because they want to get to Germany before the other group.
“I can say the same about your attempts to defend the Hungarians' handling of the situation.”
Except I have tried to defend the Hungarians' handling of the situation, whereas you just kept repeating what amounts to “well the Hungarians started it”, which I have also argued against.
“I agree that more pressure ought to be placed on the Arab world. How would Serbia's reaction suggest that it is a safe country for migrants?”
Well, if you're going to criticise another country for how they handle migrants, it would be pretty embarrassing if your own country was no better. So I'm assuming Serbia is confident in itself in that regard.
“Yes it is ill-advised, but surely the onus is on the police to restrain themselves.”
Which I have already stated I believe they did. If the police are going for an individual or group, and someone carelessly lets a child get involved in it, there's not much the police can do; especially behind their fence.
“Are you denying that the Hungarians used excessive force?”
Young Ireland, I can't help but feel you're asking me stupid questions in order to waste time or something. I think I've made it crystal clear at this point – yes, from what I've seen, I deny it.
“I agree that it's ill-advised, but one would think that the police would re-consider their tactics.”
Perhaps they did after a time. We don't know how much time passed between the first and last child to get hit by tear-gas (or at least I don't).
“Have you ever fled a war situation, Antaine? I haven't.”
No, and I wish you made your point instead of leaving it out there as if I'm supposed to come to the realisation that you're correct. Fleeing war isn't easy, and you're not going to be feeling the best, I can guess that much. That doesn't give me the right to then start attacking police officers standing guard. Like I said before Young Ireland, nothing will be achieved by that, so why would I bother? It's only causing unnecessary trouble.
“I don't stand for that either, but that's not an excuse to deprive the migrants of the presumption of innocence.”
No, it's not; and that's not what I'm trying to say here. I'm saying there are different extents to which you can be taken advantage of, and some need to be taken far more seriously than others.
“But that does not give us the right to assume that every Muslim as a potential criminal.”
I'm not singling out Muslims though.
“Like Hungary.”
Hungary isn't close to Syria though, but it was originally doing more for Syrians than some countries close to it; even if not accepting them.
Note: As of right now, there is a bit of a situation going on between Croatia and Hungary. Hungary intercepted a train from Croatia that was carrying migrants to Germany (at least I think it was headed to germany). Honestly, I don't know why they didn't just let the train move on if it was headed to Germany. At the same time, it probably didn't help that Croatia's foreign minister apparently lied, and said that Hungary agreed to provide a "corridor" to allow the migrants to pass through to get to Germany.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Sept 21, 2015 13:45:56 GMT
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Post by Young Ireland on Jan 7, 2016 21:31:58 GMT
Let me say a few things about the disgraceful events in Cologne on New Year's night:
1. The actions of the perpretrators are downright despicable and they should be brought to the full rigours of the law.
2. Any attempt by the extreme right to use this as political ammunition or to stir up Islamophobia is also wrong, as all it will do is reinforce the belief among Arabs that Europe rejects them and thus will turn even more strongly to ISIS as defenders of their community. Remember that these and similar groups WANT predjudice to flourish in order to radicalise the Arab population further and make them more receptive to their ideas. Whereas if Muslims are made to feel an equal part of the community, it will kill the problem at its root, thus potentially preventing more terrorist attacks like the one in Paris.
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