The ineffable Fr Brendan Hoban rants against Cardinal Burke's Pontifical High Mass at Knock, from the association of Catholic Priests website. Several of his fans join in the combox to express their mindset of "Diversity for me but not for thee".
www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2011/09/article-by-brendan-hoban/ Their ravings are a sight to behold. Their assumptions include the following: (1) Elaborate costumes and ceremonial are always sheer displays of political power and have nothing religious about them. Cardinal Burke was simply engaging in politics and there was nothing religious about his celebrating the Mass. (So Fr Hoban and his fans, in addition to their other claims, believe themselves to be mindreaders, and no doubt as we speak they are being measured for their tinfoil hats. Of course when the IRISH TIMES puffs the ACP from the height of the Tara Street Magisterium, that is not politics at all.). Cardinals and the Vatican are evil by definition (2) Nobody wants the Extraordinary Rite, therefore it ought not to be permitted at all. Those who want the Extraordinary Rite are idiots and dupes of the power-hungry lace wearers of the Vatican. Posters who recalled the celebration of the EF Mass at the mass-rocks in Penal Times were met by sneers about these not having been celebrated in lace and robes. Some of these posters sound as if they would like to take up a new occupation: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest_hunter EXTRACTSWendy Murphy September 17th, 2011 at 11:10 pm I’ve just looked at the YouTube video of this event. It’s ludicrous and disgraceful beyond description. The feeling I have is this – where is the forum in which we, the ‘laity’ can protest and articulate our views? Where are the bishops/priests who, like us, desire the simple freedom and grace to live good, prayerful lives in the Catholic community, embedded in the wider community we love? Why aren’t they protesting loudly against the empty pomp and imperialism of the kind expressed in the video? If they don’t protest, please tell me how we can? Why must we be expected to pretend, to our brothers and sisters in our ordinary lives, that we can even begin to go along with such a travesty that bears no resemblance at all to the Good News of the Scriptures?... Eddie Finnegan September 19th, 2011 at 10:59 pm Sean, your apologia for “the good Cardinal Burke” trailing his seven or is it fifteen metres of folderols across the world as some sort of physical ‘hermeneutic of continuity’ [continuity of what? the power displays of Borgia popes and their cardinalated wild oats?] might win you a medal in some strange corners of Rome. Except, of course, that your apologia is a rather pathetic and unacknowledged plagiarism of a Tulsa monsignor, Patrick Brankin, on his way up the greasy pole as he tries to deal with the deserved criticism of Tulsa’s Bishop Slattery’s flaunting of his endless cappa magna. Just why do all these fellows of the Church’s Irish diaspora have to act the bloody eejit once they get a bit of preferment? Like the ‘returned Yanks’ of the 1950s trying to negotiate the roads of Dingle or Connemara in their cadillacs. Thank God, another of our diaspora, Bishop Kevin Dowling of Rustenburg, dealt with Slattery’s Mounted Fut in his take on ‘The Current State of the Church’ [The Furrow, Nov 2010; reproduced here more recently.] Read it, Sean lad. It’ll do you good. And no, just because most of us with a titter of wit fall about laughing at the Burke & Slattery brigade doesn’t mean we’re not prone to a healthy guffaw at the YouTube clip you linked to above... Association of Catholic Priests September 19th, 2011 at 11:20 pm I eventually got around to watching the You Tube video of the Archbishop Burke in Knock. I counted ten men and boys (no women)involved in the divesting and revesting of the Archbishop before the Mass. It looked very strange to me, and reminded me of Bishop Michael Browne of Galway when he came to the ordinations in the seminary back in the sixties. As regard the dispute about the attendance, a crucial fact, which I had missed, is that the Mass took place in the old, smaller, chapel rather than the large church. The crowd, either devout participants or merely curious onlookers, was smaller than the attendance at my recent mission in a country parish in County Wicklow. Tony [PRESUMABLY FR FLANNERY, OF SHREK LITURGY FAME] END Several participants defend the EF liturgy: Anthony Murphy September 17th, 2011 at 10:05 pm As one of the organisers of this Mass I must point out a few errors in Fr Hoban’s story. First he suggests that no one wants the Extraordinary Form yet the church was full to overflowing, standing room only. I should also point out that the religious congregation we organised the Mass with, the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest, have a Seminary which is full and they also have a growing number of Irish vocations. I wonder why Fr Hoban would object to such beautiful sacred liturgy especially as the Roman Pontiff has encouraged it’s use and especially many of the young people seem to be drawn to it. Surely the old and the new can exist side by side in harmony, there really is no need for division. ... Anthony Murphy September 18th, 2011 at 10:25 pm It seems that the only argument some of the commentators can make is to attempt to ridicule the authentic Mass which is very sad. [THIS IS NOT THE BEST WAY TO PUT IT AS IT IMPLIES THE OF IS NOT AUTHENTIC] To Eddie I would suggest you look at Cardinal Burke’s record before you disparage him and perhaps you will then realise that he wears the red of the martyrs because he would face dungeon fire and sword in defence of his faith. Please if you are going to criticise then at least be fair and balanced. To Bernadette I would say that your children prove my point, by your own account they were fascinated, it was they who wanted to go into the church and took you in – they were attracted to the beauty of the worship. Also Bernadette I would ask you to be honest, I was in the parish church throughout the ceremony and it was full, there were over thirty people stood at the back and in the doorway of the church and the majority were young families. Also it appears that you did not stay very long at all as most of the time the priests were not wearing their birettas. Finally I would point out that many of the women did not wear any head gear at all but those that did were I assume doing so out of respect – so again why criticise what they feel to be proper. I say again there is no attempt to replace the New Mass with the Extraordinary Form, please could we all exercise a little charity and not try to regiment worship. I will close by saying that the seminary is full and that Irish vocations to this and other traditional orders are growing. I have visited the seminary in Italy and it is an absolute joy to spend time with so many young happy priests whose only desire is to serve the Lord and yes they are also humble in heart and spirit – please do not make such harsh judgements before you actually spend some time getting to know these priests. END One or two of the liberal posters do show signs of recognising that if they want pluralism for themselves they can hardly deny it to those who disagree with them. Others, however, are unabashed: Simmary September 20th, 2011 at 7:44 am Anthony Murphy – Father? [I.E.HE ASSUMES ANYONE WHO SUPPORTS THE EF MUST BE A PRIEST OF CLERICALIST TENDENCIES] The reason the two forms of Mass cannot well exist side by side is that the differences are divisive. [THE ACP IS NOT DIVISIVE?] We saw this with the charismatic movement when some people wanted to go all out joyous and buoyant, and others just preferred Good Ole Ornerary. And by and large the major charismatic celebrations were celebrated occasionally, in large churches or in conference-type gatherings. I surmise that the Knock Mass with the Cardinal was similarly a special mass – the exception rather than the customary. Fine for those who savour that form. The problem comes at a parish level when the pp has a strong personal preference for the Tridentine Latin Mass and all the associated accoutrements and practices and the vast majority of the parishioners still prefer the form of vernacular celebration we have used in worship for the past 40 years of our lives. I live in such a parish. Some have attended the Latin Mass and found ourselves unexpectedly out-of-kilter with it. We feel excluded by the priest being so far away with his back to us , speaking very fast in Latin, robed in old vestments with incredible decorative distractions, the biretta whipped on and off at frequent intervals, the lace “edging” on the alb cascading from the hip-line! And when the same priest says an English Mass (through clenched teeth), garbed as if for a Tridentine celebration, the prevailing tension precludes any response to God which is free from “personality” issues. [THIS SEEMS TO GO BEYOND DISLIKE OF THE EF - HE WANTS THE LITURGY TO BE AS "INFORMAL" AS POSSIBLE] What can the parishioners do? We know the Bishop has no alternative priest to offer us. Those of us without cars can only suffer and be aware that while we persevere, at least this man is not afflicting some other folk. It’s not an accommodated parish situation – it’s just ghastly and profoundly depressing. This too is a form of abuse. [REALLY? YOU FIND YOURSELF IN THE SAME SITUATION AS MANY WHO DISLIKE GUITARS, CLOWN MASSES, ETC, AND YOU CAN'T TAKE IT? YOU CONSIDER HAVING TO ATTEND THE EF, OR AN OF WHICH STRICTLY OBSERVES THE RUBRIC, AS EQUIVALENT TO BEING ABUSED? WHERE'S YOUR SENSE OF PROPORTION? BTW I THINK THIS PERSON IS IN BRITAIN, AS IN ANOTHER COMMENT ON THE BLOG HE REFERS TO NUMROUS ITALIAN IMMIGRANTS IN HIS PARISH.]
By the way, can anyone tell me why the LMSI pilgrimage was scheduled for the Saturday before Cardinal Burke's visit (organised by the ICKSP)? Presumably the LMSI date was influenced by the proximity of the feast of Our Lady of Knock, and the ICKSP will have been determined by Cardinal Burke's availability, but why could the LMSI and the ICKSP not have co-ordinated their plans rather than expecting people from across the country to go to Knock on two successive Saturdays?
Christ is the morning star who when the night of this world is past brings to his saints the promise of the light of life and opens everlasting day
The problem comes at a parish level when the pp has a strong personal preference for the Tridentine Latin Mass and all the associated accoutrements and practices and the vast majority of the parishioners still prefer the form of vernacular celebration we have used in worship for the past 40 years of our lives. I live in such a parish. Some have attended the Latin Mass and found ourselves unexpectedly out-of-kilter with it. We feel excluded by the priest being so far away with his back to us , speaking very fast in Latin, robed in old vestments with incredible decorative distractions, the biretta whipped on and off at frequent intervals, the lace “edging” on the alb cascading from the hip-line! And when the same priest says an English Mass (through clenched teeth), garbed as if for a Tridentine celebration, the prevailing tension precludes any response to God which is free from “personality” issues. [THIS SEEMS TO GO BEYOND DISLIKE OF THE EF - HE WANTS THE LITURGY TO BE AS "INFORMAL" AS POSSIBLE] What can the parishioners do? We know the Bishop has no alternative priest to offer us. Those of us without cars can only suffer and be aware that while we persevere, at least this man is not afflicting some other folk. It’s not an accommodated parish situation – it’s just ghastly and profoundly depressing. This too is a form of abuse. [REALLY? YOU FIND YOURSELF IN THE SAME SITUATION AS MANY WHO DISLIKE GUITARS, CLOWN MASSES, ETC, AND YOU CAN'T TAKE IT? YOU CONSIDER HAVING TO ATTEND THE EF, OR AN OF WHICH STRICTLY OBSERVES THE RUBRIC, AS EQUIVALENT TO BEING ABUSED? WHERE'S YOUR SENSE OF PROPORTION? BTW I THINK THIS PERSON IS IN BRITAIN, AS IN ANOTHER COMMENT ON THE BLOG HE REFERS TO NUMROUS ITALIAN IMMIGRANTS IN HIS PARISH.]
I agree with Hibernicus - there is no parish in which the EF Mass is said in Ireland which conforms to this pattern. Only five Irish PPs actually say the EF Mass in their own parishes - Father Patrick McCarthy in Cork, Fr John O'Rourke in Tipp, Fr Michael Cahill in Meath, Fr Dermot McShane in Bruckless, Co Donegal and the PP whose name I forget in New Mills, Co Donegal. All say the OF Vernacular Mass quite contentedly.
The ACPI combox poster was not just objecting to the priest saying the EF but to his saying the OF "garbed as for a Tridentine celebration", whatever he means by that. I presumed that he was not referring to St Kevin's in Dublin (where of course there is no PP, just an administrator) because the OF congregation there is so small and there are plenty of churches within easy reach for those "without cars" for whom he is so solicitous. The same of course is true in Cork. Although the capacity of a certain type of person to go to Mass for the express purpose of being offended should not be underestimated, I suspect this person is in Britain; as well as referring to Italian immigrants (who might be an "old" community) he also refers to recently-arrived Poles which would suggest he is more likely to be in Europe than North America or Australasia.
Christ is the morning star who when the night of this world is past brings to his saints the promise of the light of life and opens everlasting day
T I presumed that he was not referring to St Kevin's in Dublin (where of course there is no PP, just an administrator) because the OF congregation there is so small and there are plenty of churches within easy reach for those "without cars" for whom he is so solicitous.
Just to let you know, Fr Deighan is no longer Adm in St Kevin's; he has reverted to curacy and a new Adm has been appointed.
Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Aug 13, 2013 8:34:27 GMT
I should state, the EF Mass is celebrated in the old Parish Church in Knock every second Sunday at 5.30 pm. I hear from John Heneghan that last Sunday (11 August) where Fr Roland Colhoun of the Derry Diocese was celebrant (Fr Anthony Buckley of Cork & Ross did July - the Knock Mass draws on priests from all over the country), was the biggest crowd seen yet. This Mass has steadily grown over the past two years from an attendence of 90 to 120 and more: over the past few months it has been around 150. The general trend in monthly EF Masses is that they tend to go down in the summer months. It is possible that Knock is exception as there are holiday makers around the area in summer rather than away, but the upward trend is general.
BTW, the national pilgrimage to Knock is on Saturday 7 September (Fr John Loftus, Killala Diocese again celebrating) and the celebrant for Sunday 8 September is yet to be confirmed.
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