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Post by hibernicus on Feb 8, 2012 22:01:42 GMT
John Waters had quite an interesting piece in last Friday's IRISH TIMES in which he commented on how little the Irish public seem to know or care about the tens of thousands of Poles who now live here. He suggested two reasons for this - that the Poles are seen as "old-fashioned" because they are Catholic, and that they are seen as socially inferior because they mostly do jobs the native Irish can't be bothered doing. I remember in the winter of 1981 reading in the papers about Jaruzelski's crackdown on Solidarity and sympathising with the plight of the Poles. I never thought I'd live to see so many here. I remember visiting Knock last year and finding a large number of Poles at the shrine, and I keep on meaning to look into St Audoen's to see how it looks now it is the seat of the Polish chaplaincy but I have never actually done it. So - has anyone got any thoughts on Poland, the Polish historical experience, or the Poles who now live here? Do we have any Polish readers who would like to offer their pennyworth?
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Post by shane on Feb 8, 2012 22:16:18 GMT
I can't read a word of Polish but I talk to this guy on Twitter sometimes. He is a traditionalist Catholic now living and working in Ireland: dheaglain.wordpress.com/
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jaykay
Junior Member
Posts: 65
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Post by jaykay on Feb 9, 2012 15:32:05 GMT
I would think that a lot of Irish people just lump the Poles in with other people from the general eastern European area - much as certain other Europeans (mostly southerners) used to lump us in with the English, or the Dutch or some vaguely "northern Saxon" region. I know about this - the amount of times I was asked if I was from Holland back in the early 80s travelling in southern Europe was unreal. When one said Ireland the general reaction was a shrug.
But I wouldn't think there's really much animosity as such towards Poles (or others - apart from the Roma). Possibly it's more a general feeling of not wanting to know them at all, just plain uninterest. Although I agree there is certainly a current of superiority in some quarters, based as you say on the manual-type jobs they predominantly perform. I find this attitude particularly galling. Who the hell are we, with our history, to try on this sort of thing?? But then again, the types who go in for that sort of prejudice would be - to put it politely - unlikely to have a deeply-rooted reflective or intellectual bent.
Personally, I've been interested in Poland - and Czechoslovakia/Bohemia etc - for a long time, from study of history at school and Uni when I had a particular interest in the Austro-Hungarian empire and its constituent parts. The most historic part of Poland, its spiritual heartland around Krakow and Czestochowa, was a part of that empire. After independence, the success of the Poles in the Russo-Polish war in the early 20s was really inspiring. A book I read at that time called "White Eagle, Red Star" (forget the author) lead me to devote a lot of study time to that subset of the general course - which wasn't a great idea because its chances of featuring on the Leaving Cert history paper were practically zero (as it subsequently transpired)! But I was a bit obsessed.
Over the last few years I have worked with an early-30s Polish guy, in a professional capacity. He moved from Polish to German almost unconsciously, having taken a Master's in Germany, and his French was damn good too. He admitted he hated Russian, although I don't think his generation would have been forced to learn it? He used to sort of clam-up on that subject. He has now gone back to Poland (to Lodz - pronounced "Woodge", roughly) to get married but I really hope to see him again. That guy could work anywhere. Although he wouldn't really have liked one to say so, his work ethic was Germanic.
I do hope to visit Poland in the future, particularly the area around Krakow but not forgetting the rest of the country. I'm very keen to see how they rebuilt Warsaw. I just finished a book recently on the Lodz ghetto and its incredible "President" Mordechai Rumkowski, and I also read Michael O'Brien's "Sophia House" last year. So I've been delving in perhaps the darker areas of Polish history for a while now. I must try to expand my choices. Anyone got any ideas?
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Post by hibernicus on Feb 9, 2012 22:56:46 GMT
Adam Zamoyski and Norman Davies have some interesting books on Polish history which might provide a good introduction. The latter in particular is fiercely Polonophile as a counter to the dismissive view of the Poles which used to be widespread in the English-speaking world (especially before 1989)
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Feb 10, 2012 13:35:46 GMT
One hears good and bad things about the Poles. I am not a Polonophile myself, but I think that negative reaction in Ireland is based on the jobs which the Poles have been willing to take here. But the Poles (and other Eastern Europeans) have usually superior education and/or technical training to their Irish equivalents. In addition, they do bring a work ethic here which is missing in Ireland.
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jaykay
Junior Member
Posts: 65
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Post by jaykay on Feb 10, 2012 18:49:28 GMT
Yes!! Norman Davies - he was the author of "White Eagle, Red Star". Thank you, hibernicus. Have just looked it up on Amazon - it's still available. It was printed in 1972 - I would have been reading it in about '76 or '77. As you say, he has lots of other books as well. "White Eagle..." is even available on Kindle. Total blast from the past - I'm going to order it.
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Post by hibernicus on Feb 10, 2012 22:59:24 GMT
I'm neither a Polonophile nor a Polonophobe, but I think it is striking that there are so many Poles in the country and they receive so little attention. BTW quite a few Catholic Eurosceptics and pro-family campaigners seem to take a great interest in Polish politics without having much in-depth knowledge of it. Law and Justice receive not just support (which could be reasonable) but uncritical adulation, and one even hears eulogies for the League of Polish Families, which by all accounts is a rather more dicey proposition.
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Post by hibernicus on Feb 20, 2012 19:55:45 GMT
Here's a thought - how far can the Poles in Ireland today be compared to the Irish immigrants in Britain in the 1940s and 1950s? Better qualified, probably but I suspect the attitudes of the natives towards them bear some relationship to attitudes faced by the Irish in Britain then.
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Post by Askel McThurkill on Feb 21, 2012 11:10:40 GMT
I ran into a couple of guys involved in Law and Justice in the 1990s. I have to say I would be skeptical.
And Hibernicus is correct about the League of Polish Families.
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Post by Askel McThurkill on Feb 21, 2012 11:11:34 GMT
I think Hibernicus is right to compare Polish immigrants to Ireland today to the Irish in Britain of the 1950s.
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Post by hibernicus on Feb 21, 2012 22:57:01 GMT
I remember the comparison occurred to me when I was last in Knock. There were a lot of Poles there (I think on pilgrimage) and I was struck by their slightly unkempt working-class appearance and fervent collective devotion. (Oddly enough, I remember Mary Kenny making the comparison in a column describing Muslim demonstrators in Bradford protesting against THE SATANIC VERSES in the early 90s - people who were making a conscious attempt to appear dignified and respectable despite their threadbareness, and who were moved by a genuine assertion of collective dignity. Whatever you may think of that particular cause, she was clear she was describing people expressing their deepest emotions of love for their Prophet and Koran. I remembered that column when I saw the Poles at Knock, and I am not saying this to insult the Poles or the 50s Irish.) Another point BTW is that the Irish in 50s Britain were often seen as an embarrassment to English Catholics who preferred more subdued forms of devotion, with less emphasis on Marianism (or more compromised and watered-down approaches). I suspect Poles experience the same thing here even in relation to some practising Catholics - certainly they experience it in contemporary England, where the bishops have had the effrontery to lecture them on the need to blend in with the local population and be Catholics in the proper English way.
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Post by hibernicus on Jul 8, 2012 21:24:53 GMT
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Post by hibernicus on Oct 17, 2012 19:29:42 GMT
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Post by hibernicus on Nov 6, 2012 11:05:12 GMT
An interesting observation - when I was in St Saviour's for the St MArtin de Porres novena I noticed Polish-language posters for the pro-life demonstration in Castlebar last Saturday. This is a positive development - I wonder how many Poles went along, and who is responsible for the posters?
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Post by hibernicus on Apr 30, 2013 17:37:30 GMT
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