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Post by hibernicus on Jun 1, 2013 15:01:57 GMT
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Post by Michael O'Donovan on Aug 31, 2015 22:42:56 GMT
I'm coming to this thread very late, and I apologise if I am being impertinent and taking it off-topic.
I am sometimes in Brussels and I go to an SSPX Mass in their chapel on Rue de la Concorde (very convenient at 18:00 on Sundays). It is always a dialogue Mass. But the congregation isn't what we are used to here. They are mostly young, haut-bourgeois and elegantly dressed. Some women — the Jezebels — go bare-headed and wear jeans. No one goes for the Amish look or hand-knitted sweaters on men and dreadful hand-me-down frocks on the little girls — is that the Williamson effect here in Ireland?
Twenty-five years ago or more I went to Sunday Mass at St Nicolas du Chardonnet in Paris — Archbishop Lefebvre's tomb was still behind the high altar — and all the Parisian Pixies looked normal then too.
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Post by Young Ireland on Sept 1, 2015 7:43:24 GMT
I'm coming to this thread very late, and I apologise if I am being impertinent and taking it off-topic. I am sometimes in Brussels and I go to an SSPX Mass in their chapel on Rue de la Concorde (very convenient at 18:00 on Sundays). It is always a dialogue Mass. But the congregation isn't what we are used to here. They are mostly young, haut-bourgeois and elegantly dressed. Some women — the Jezebels — go bare-headed and wear jeans. No one goes for the Amish look or hand-knitted sweaters on men and dreadful hand-me-down frocks on the little girls — is that the Williamson effect here in Ireland? Twenty-five years ago or more I went to Sunday Mass at St Nicolas du Chardonnet in Paris — Archbishop Lefebvre's tomb was still behind the high altar — and all the Parisian Pixies looked normal then too. I think it is. Williamson's views never gained much traction in the Francophone world, presumably because they have their own brand of integrism there, which though often as bad, doesn't have quite the apocalyptic view that Williamson has.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Sept 1, 2015 8:12:33 GMT
First point here is that there is a world of a difference between the TLM on the continent, regardless of the status and the TLM in the English-speaking world. The dialogue Mass is the rule on the continent and the silent Mass is the rule in England and North America (I can't speak authoritatively on Quebec, but I expect they follow France). Ireland and Scotland, unfortunately follow England. It's not just the lack of dialogue, it is also the postures of the faithful. You'll find a more defined pattern of kneeling, standing and sitting on the continent too. No one will kneel through the epistle. The congregation stand for the Preface and Pater Noster. There are some places I've seen here where people kneel through Mass, except for standing at the Gospel. This is incorrect. It is also the case that some people who attend the EF, go to the OF and kneel through the Pater Noster. This is also incorrect. I should say I don't know of any place in Ireland where the clergy showed the leadership to instruct the faithful in the matter of postures or responses. This is not a strength. I think the pattern of silent low Mass/solemn choir sung Mass is not evangelical - that at the very least there should be dialogue Mass/congregation sung Mass (Gregorian chant. In fact the rule for sung Masses should be chant - polyphony is alright when chant is established as the rule) In regard to appearance of the congregation, I would have thought St Kevin's very bourgeois. But the trend setters seem to be the US, encouraged over a long time by Dickie Williamson, but there are plenty more where he came from and more than enough of them are in the mainstream SSPX; in fact more than enough are in the indult mainstream. And I don't think that these people realise that there is no inherent virtue in their modesty, especially when modesty is equated with drabness. A drab congregation, or one that can be mistaken for a Mosque, has limited evangelical value. Has anyone seen the painting Mass in a Connemara cabin? This is 19th century, impoverished, Jansenist-ridden Ireland at its very worst. Now, look at the appearance of the congregation and compare it with some of the EF Masses around here these days. However, there is a clear difference between the appearance of the participants in the Paris-Chartres walk and the Chartres-Paris walk. There is much more stress on "modesty" in the latter. If I was to look at the Auriesville walk, which is done in upstate New York, near the Canadian border (the shrine of the North American martyrs, including St Keteri Tekakwitha), there is a dress code set down in the regulations. Here in Ireland, the SSPX have required female participants to wear longer skirts for Croagh Patrick. Having brought groups up the reek, I would not recommend this for anyone not used to the wearing longer skirts while doing hard physical labour on a regular basis. I will make another observation of the Paris-Chartres walk, which anyone who has done it will tell you is a fantastic experience. But I wonder if the liturgy is the highlight that it is reputed to be. In spite of the fact it is sung by the congregation and that this congregation stand, kneel and sit according to the continental norm, this doesn't seem to have made much impact on most of the Irish participants. I also know people of various nationalities, who have done the walk as a challenge. Most of these, but not all, were religious to some degree; but those I am talking about were not traditional. None were converted to the old liturgy as a result of that experience. Those who are already will come back seriously affirmed in their attachment, but more due to the overall sense of fellowship over three days of penance. Those who are not will not necessarily discover a love of the old rite on the walk. Just remember, the chapters on the walk has everything from near sedevacantists to semi-charismatics who are just as happy at World Youth Day, there isn't unanimity between Paris and Chartres. There isn't uniformity between Chartres and Paris either, but I suspect it is more the case here.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Sept 1, 2015 8:16:34 GMT
I think it is. Williamson's views never gained much traction in the Francophone world, presumably because they have their own brand of integrism there, which though often as bad, doesn't have quite the apocalyptic view that Williamson has. I agree. The French have their own take on things. The alliance of throne and altar is one of them.
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