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Post by Beinidict Ó Niaidh on Jun 16, 2011 19:18:32 GMT
As we say : Indeed. The Society of St Pius X have encouraged their followers here to break the law by defacing the national flag.
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Post by Askel McThurkill on Jun 16, 2011 19:36:01 GMT
Good, Guillaume has provided us with the evidence - we can forward this to An Garda Siochana, or better still, the military police and see if there is a prosecution.
Which would be lucky for the SSPX. Certain political persuasions in Ireland are remarkably intolerant of defacing the tricolour.
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Post by Askel McThurkill on Jun 16, 2011 19:36:59 GMT
Which would be lucky for the SSPX. Certain political persuasions in Ireland are remarkably intolerant of defacing the tricolour. Not to mention the flag someone had the bad taste to place beside it.
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Post by shane on Jun 16, 2011 20:04:52 GMT
It may have been defaced outside of the state's jurisdiction. Either way the Sacred Heart just doesn't 'go' with the Irish flag. It's quite common to see French traditionalists wave the blue, white and red tricolour defaced with the Sacred Heart --- at least it matches with the red. Set against green, white and orange it just looks odd. I have to say I've never see it happen before that photo, has anyone else?
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Post by hibernicus on Jun 21, 2011 18:56:14 GMT
Careful with the irony, folks - I've received at least one complaint over the suggestion they might be prosecuted. I don't think it is an offence to tinker with the national flag - and why would the military police have any jurisdiction unless it involved serving soldiers? I'm surprised the SSPX haven't done this before since the Irish tricolour is based on the French one. The idea of putting the Sacred Heart on the flag actually goes back to the original apparition to MArgaret Mary Alacoque - one of the statements suppposedly made to her was that if Louis XIV added the Sacred Heart to his flag he would become the new Constantine and conquer all his enemies.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Jun 21, 2011 22:13:21 GMT
Irony or not, it is an objective fact to say that compromising the integrity of the national flag is an offence under criminal law. Prosecution is probably unlikely, but not impossible. The SSPX should stop to think that some deeds may have consequences and the complainers have an issue not with the comments above, but with Irish flag law as it stands - under which placing the Sacred Heart on the tricolour as in the photograph is illegal.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Jun 21, 2011 22:14:44 GMT
Don't tell me Guillaume took down the photo because the lads above were slagging him about it.
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Post by hibernicus on Jun 22, 2011 21:03:08 GMT
I must confess that I didn't know it was illegal. I wonder how such an attempted prosecution would stand up in court given the constitutional guarantee of free speech. The US Supreme Court have ruled there is a constitutional right to burn the Stars and Stripes, but their First amendment jurisprudence values free speech more highly than ours does. That said, I think it was a mistake to introduce prosecution into this discussion - it should be debated on the merits. I have now received a second complaint, BTW.
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Post by shane on Jun 22, 2011 23:07:58 GMT
Very interesting, hibernicus. If I may ask, did the SSPX itself complain?
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Post by guillaume on Jun 23, 2011 5:19:57 GMT
I did complain. When I posted the photo I did not expect such reactions from 2 members of this forum. We can discuss about it, which is an interesting subject by the way. But the two first reactions I received were menace of formal complains and prosecutions. For the sake of the young persons who brought the Flag, and because of the two previous comments, I deleted the picture. It is amazing to see the reactions of Catholics offended to see the Sacred Heart, symbol of our Faith, in a flag. I would love to see the Sacred Heart sewed on any flags from all over the world. By the way, since those two comments, I made research trough other forums in France. And the event happening in France, France rules prevail and no prosecution are possible.
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Post by hibernicus on Jun 23, 2011 21:42:53 GMT
Another individual besides Guillaume complained; they may or may not be a SSPX member but they did not say they were complining on behalf of the SSPX so I regard it as an individual complaint. I will not give their name since they complained privately; if they wish to bring their complaint into the open forum, that is a matter for them. As I said, I think the reference to prosecution was a bad idea as it got things off on the wrong footing. I suspect the people who mentioned it were not entirely serious in their suggestion, but I still think it was a bit over the top. The national flag is the property of the whole nation and it's not for individuals to change it unilaterally, IMHO. However desirable it might be to have the Sacred Heart, or the Papal keys, or the Five Wounds, or any similar symbol, it is for the Irish parliament and nation to decide this. BTW, what exactly is the symbolic implication of adding the Sacred Heart? Is it just a private expression of devotion, or a commemoration of the Chouans (as I have seen Union Jacks with King Billy added in the centre at Orange parades in Belfast) or does it convey the wish that France (or Ireland) should formally become a Cahtolic confessional state?t
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Post by guillaume on Jun 27, 2011 7:48:32 GMT
Don't tell me Guillaume took down the photo because the lads above were slagging him about it. "slagging" ? It is not a question of "slagging" but a pure provocation from Askel and Benedictus against the Society. The problem is : it is not me who brought this flag and even carried it. So I did not want those people responsible for a courageous and demonstrative act of faith being in trouble because of Askel's greed for secular loyalty and secular law and, indirectly, because of me. If abortion were to be allowed in Ireland and if I demonstrated against it in any way, would Askel call the cops ? Because I would demonstrate against a law, secular law, anti-Christian law, but a law ? I suggest to Askel to read the Bible a little bit more : Saint Paul, Saint Peter and many, many, many others had been to jail, imprisoned, condemned and even put to death because of their faith and above all because they demonstrated their faith in Jesus Christ, our Lord. The faith of the martyrs is the strongest any catholic can ever have. I think Askel, who love to complain against young people demonstrating it without human respect, and so embrace the worldly and secular rules, is far from it.
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Post by guillaume on Jun 27, 2011 7:52:45 GMT
Another individual besides Guillaume complained; they may or may not be a SSPX member but they did not say they were complining on behalf of the SSPX so I regard it as an individual complaint. I will not give their name since they complained privately; if they wish to bring their complaint into the open forum, that is a matter for them. As I said, I think the reference to prosecution was a bad idea as it got things off on the wrong footing. I suspect the people who mentioned it were not entirely serious in their suggestion, but I still think it was a bit over the top. The national flag is the property of the whole nation and it's not for individuals to change it unilaterally, IMHO. However desirable it might be to have the Sacred Heart, or the Papal keys, or the Five Wounds, or any similar symbol, it is for the Irish parliament and nation to decide this. BTW, what exactly is the symbolic implication of adding the Sacred Heart? Is it just a private expression of devotion, or a commemoration of the Chouans (as I have seen Union Jacks with King Billy added in the centre at Orange parades in Belfast) or does it convey the wish that France (or Ireland) should formally become a Cahtolic confessional state?t Just to remind Hibernicus : a faithful who follow SSPX celebrations is not a member of the Society. ONLY priests and religious person belonging to the Society are actually members of the Society.
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Post by hibernicus on Jun 27, 2011 10:44:29 GMT
With all due respect, Guillaume, a law prohibiting the addition of symbols to the national flag is NOT anti-Christian because it applies to all symbols equally and does not single out Christian ones, and because Christians are not under any obligation to add religious symbols to the national flag. Catholics are supposed to give due respect to the law and not to break it without grave moral reason. It is also ridiculous to compare this law to a law permitting abortion, which involves the taking of human life and saying murder is not murder.
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Post by guillaume on Jun 27, 2011 11:13:46 GMT
With all due respect, Guillaume, a law prohibiting the addition of symbols to the national flag is NOT anti-Christian because it applies to all symbols equally and does not single out Christian ones, and because Christians are not under any obligation to add religious symbols to the national flag. Catholics are supposed to give due respect to the law and not to break it without grave moral reason. It is also ridiculous to compare this law to a law permitting abortion, which involves the taking of human life and saying murder is not murder. Regarding abortion it was a "secularism way of seeing things" against Christian way. It was only an example. Regarding this flag issue, some fella on another forum posted me the regulation regarding the use of the Irish flag. Totally official as it comes from the Taoiseach Office website. While it says, in fairness, that the national flag must be kept intact, however it also admits than the rules regarding the use of the Irish flag written on this website is not a matter of law. What about the use of the Irish Flag in Northern Ireland ? Would Askel call the PSNI because somebody put the Irish Flag in nationalist/catholic district ? On somehow the use of the Irish Flag in the North is also a demonstration of catholic faith against the protestant. And should I remind everyone that we are not talking about putting a symbol of Marijuana, a death skull or a two fingers. We are speaking about a simple and humble symbol of religious faith : the sacred heart of Jesus. What is wrong with that ?
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